No, they're referring to the price negotiations between all four partners & the manufacturers. Everybody - even Germany - has been trying to push the price down, or get more for the same price.
Eurofighter Typhoon Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Musashi_kenshin
- Start date
Germany ready to order third tranche of Eurofighter
Link and more infos here: defence.professionals | defpro.com
METEORSWARM
New Member
The Typhoon's DASS system allows you to detect, locate and classify hostile emitters, and can analyze a proposed flight profile to minimize the return of the hunting radar (RCS), introducing his "angle" for a more stealthy that particular issuer.
The DASS tells the pilot (through a HUD and MFD) what specific exercises should be done (even with the measured time) to break the blocking radar for some enemy radar or missile.
Captor: 20 simultaneous targets in prioritizing the greatest threat, range from 160 to 180km for fighters and 300 + km for cargo, etc..
Efa pilot words in forums.
The DASS tells the pilot (through a HUD and MFD) what specific exercises should be done (even with the measured time) to break the blocking radar for some enemy radar or missile.
Captor: 20 simultaneous targets in prioritizing the greatest threat, range from 160 to 180km for fighters and 300 + km for cargo, etc..
Efa pilot words in forums.
Scorpion82
New Member
Combat radius of the Typhoon is 750 nm depending on the coditions.
Top speed at alt is about M 2.0, with AAMs M 1.8 and with drop tanks M 1.6 for both.
The new head of Eurofighter has been quoted as saying that the British share of Tranche 3A will be 40 aircraft, including the 24 which are scheduled to be tacked on to the end of T2 to replace the 24 production slots given up for the Saudis. That could mean either that our last 24 are postponed, or that we end up with 208 - assuming, of course, that T3B goes ahead.
Typhoon Partners To Split Tranche-3 Buy - Defense News
Typhoon Partners To Split Tranche-3 Buy - Defense News
Is that combat radius of 750NM with drop tank or without? By the way, when they say combat radius, do they mean one way or round trip? Sorry to ask such simple questions but I can't get these direct answers anywhere?
Different websites give different figures, for example, mig-29 with 3 drop tank and only two short range air-to-air missile has a combat radius of around 550NM.
Different websites give different figures, for example, mig-29 with 3 drop tank and only two short range air-to-air missile has a combat radius of around 550NM.
Radius - the distance from the centre of a circle to the edge. In this context, the centre is the aircrafts base, to which the aircraft is expected to return, & combat radius is the distance from that base at which an aircraft can do whatever it is tasked with. That is why it will vary with role, as well as with armament & fuel load.
E.g. air combat patrol radius would generally be much less than strike radius on a fixed target, even though the CAP warload would be lighter & less draggy than the strike load, because the strike is just out & back, while CAP requires loitering, & fuel reserves for manouevering.
I read that but couldn't decide if it meant that we lose 24 aircraft from the total, meaning that the same amount of tranche 3 is procured and fewer tranche 2 or whether it meant that we keep the same total number but have a higher percentage of tranche 3 than tranche 2 than originally planned.
Just to be clear, we aren't losing any numbers to Saudi Arabia, apart from possibly those 24? They are really making this whole thing convoluted.
METEORSWARM
New Member
Typhoon with 2 irist and internal fuel 4500l 120 minutes in fly,(2x ej 200)no tanks and refueling in air.+CFT in future............fiuuu!!
IRST good now they can tell the distance to the target by its own IIR sensor, laser designator not required, thus failing to warn the enemies MAW.
IRST good now they can tell the distance to the target by its own IIR sensor, laser designator not required, thus failing to warn the enemies MAW.
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Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #231
I'll recap the situation.
Originally it was agreed that 24 aircraft of the RAF's allocation for Tranche 2 could be sent to Saudi Arabia. This would allow the UK to delay paying for those planes, but it would still have to buy another batch of T-2 jets later on.
The situation now is that the UK will not have to buy another 24 T-2 planes. Instead, the RAF's allocation in the first half of Tranche 3 production has been pegged at 16, plus another 24 in lieu of those airframes sent to RSAF.
However, I don't think it's clear whether the UK will be expected to order it's full T-3 commitment as well as the 24, or whether the 24 will form part of the RAF's T-3 order. I think this question has been put aside to get the fist part of T-3 production agreed upon.
Thanks for clearing that up. But as you say it begs the question, does that mean that overall tranche 3 numbers will be affected?
Originally the UK was supposed to order 88 tranche 3 craft, now 40 for tranche 3A. Does that mean that 48 should be ordered for tranche 3B or will it be 48 + 24? That is the only way all 232 originally planned would be delivered right?
Unless the defense budget gets the pressure relieved in a major way or some major conflict flares up that threatens us, I can't see the MoD buying that many aircraft in a few years time. But for the RAF it would work out better that originally planned if they were all ordered because they get more of the higher performance/upgraded jets than those with partial capabilities.
Well, according to this the number could drop to 123: RAF chief predicts controversial takeover of Royal Naval air power - Telegraph
V
wasn't that supposed to be the plan anyway as the rest were for attrition besides I'm very skeptical of reporting of defense issues in UK broadsheets.
besides the article is focused on the annual RAF vs RN turf war over fast air
That goes against every indication we've had for the last 2 years and I doubt it is right. When and if it is confirmed i'll be interested to know which aircraft we are losing considering we have already ordered more than that for ourselves.
No direct quotes, I see. I suspect the Torygraph has misinterpreted Torpy. The plan was for 137 operational Typhoons (7 squadrons of 15, plus an OCU of 24, plus the Falklands detachment & OEU with 4 each) plus aircraft earmarked for attrition & reserves, including those currently undergoing upgrade. Deduct a squadron, & a few from the reserves, & you get to around 123 operational, & 208 total - which, by no coincidence at all is 232 less 24 T2 slots sold to Saudi Arabia.
In other words, he's unlikely to have said we're only going to have 123 altogether. He probably said 123 operational, on the grounds that he has been warned not to expect the lost 24 to be reinstated, and he must lose a squadron. He then let the Torygraph make of that what it would.
After all, as Grim says, that's less than the 160 of our T1 & T2 orders & what we've agreed to buy in T3A.
Germany reduces Eurofighter order
06:30 GMT, June 10, 2009 defpro.com | Germany is planning to reduce its original order for Eurofighters by 37 aircraft, resulting in a savings of billions of Euros – at least for the time being. This decision was made public in a document released yesterday by the Federal Ministry of Finance.
In 1997 the German Bundestag approved a joint contract with Britain, Italy and Spain, as members of the Eurofighter consortium, to purchase 180 Eurofighters. According to the terms of the contract, however, the €14.6 billion German investment will be exhausted following the purchase of 143 aircraft.
The document indicates that the Bundestag's budget committee recommends going along with the scheme,based upon a preliminary agreement reached in March, under which the four nations agreed to split the planned Tranche 3 order for a total of 236 aircraft (including 68 for Germany) into two half-tranches (3A and 3B), with a first order being placed for 112 aircraft worth some €80 billion. Within this total, the UK is to take 40 TYPHOONs, Germany 31, Italy 21 and Spain 20. A decision on whether or not to order the remaining aircraft under Tranche 3B was to be postponed until 2012,. Germany is the first member country having explicitly indicated that it does not intend to proceed beyond Tranche 3A, unless the government manages to find foreign customers for its older Tranche 1 Eurofighters.
Hans-Peter Bartels, a member of the German Bundestag, said the federal budget has many problems that are not all related to the Bundeswehr. Bartels said that 143 Typhoon aircraft are adequate for the present security policy framework. The Eurofighter would not be further financed,” he said.
A final German decision on the Tranche 3A is expected by the end of this month.
The memorandum of understanding between the four countries specifies that if a country withdraws unilaterally from the programme or reduces its order, it must compensate the other partners for the resulting higher costs they are facing. However, Bartels has already said that a claim of €3 billion for the full amount of the 1997 contract will not be paid.
Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com
06:30 GMT, June 10, 2009 defpro.com | Germany is planning to reduce its original order for Eurofighters by 37 aircraft, resulting in a savings of billions of Euros – at least for the time being. This decision was made public in a document released yesterday by the Federal Ministry of Finance.
In 1997 the German Bundestag approved a joint contract with Britain, Italy and Spain, as members of the Eurofighter consortium, to purchase 180 Eurofighters. According to the terms of the contract, however, the €14.6 billion German investment will be exhausted following the purchase of 143 aircraft.
The document indicates that the Bundestag's budget committee recommends going along with the scheme,based upon a preliminary agreement reached in March, under which the four nations agreed to split the planned Tranche 3 order for a total of 236 aircraft (including 68 for Germany) into two half-tranches (3A and 3B), with a first order being placed for 112 aircraft worth some €80 billion. Within this total, the UK is to take 40 TYPHOONs, Germany 31, Italy 21 and Spain 20. A decision on whether or not to order the remaining aircraft under Tranche 3B was to be postponed until 2012,. Germany is the first member country having explicitly indicated that it does not intend to proceed beyond Tranche 3A, unless the government manages to find foreign customers for its older Tranche 1 Eurofighters.
Hans-Peter Bartels, a member of the German Bundestag, said the federal budget has many problems that are not all related to the Bundeswehr. Bartels said that 143 Typhoon aircraft are adequate for the present security policy framework. The Eurofighter would not be further financed,” he said.
A final German decision on the Tranche 3A is expected by the end of this month.
The memorandum of understanding between the four countries specifies that if a country withdraws unilaterally from the programme or reduces its order, it must compensate the other partners for the resulting higher costs they are facing. However, Bartels has already said that a claim of €3 billion for the full amount of the 1997 contract will not be paid.
Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com
Scorpion82
New Member
I would say lets wait and see. Neither the Bundeswehr, nor the government intended a reduction up to date. Bartels is a minister who has suggested cutting T3 by half before.
Wow, hold on for a sec. Typical example of how to put things in the wrong perspective. Good thing is, budget committee recommends going on with the tranche 3A buy, which is part of the recent partner nations agreement.
And yes, of course there now is debate if a tranche 3B really is neccessary given the Bundeswehr's other shortcomings. As the Eurofighter procurement is more expensive than anticipated, additional funds would have to be made available for tranche 3B. However, no decision has been made at all, and due to the dalyed decision about 3B -in accordance with the agreement- there is some time left to sort things out.
I'm stunned time after time how words can be twisted. To make up a headline like 'Germany is planning to reduce its original order for Eurofighters by 37 aircraft, resulting in a savings of billions of Euros' out of the simle fact that the budget commitee recommends to proceed with the (UK requested) agreement about the tranche split is an insolence.
The term 'explicitly indicated' in this context is a contradiction in terms and makes my toenails curl. Honestly.
So much for defpro quality.