kev 99
Member
Agreed, I'd forgotten about them.
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
- Start date
No commitment has been made as to which aircraft, or quantities of, that will serve on the expected carriers.
The financial commitment in joining as tier1 status is not a commitment.
The purchasing of 3 test aircraft is not a commitment.
Anything is still possible. What I've presented are the hard facts. Investment is only such until you go down a different path, then it becomes a waste of tax payers money.
The financial commitment in joining as tier1 status is not a commitment.
The purchasing of 3 test aircraft is not a commitment.
Anything is still possible. What I've presented are the hard facts. Investment is only such until you go down a different path, then it becomes a waste of tax payers money.
1. True - but see below.
2. True - but see below.
3. True - but see below.
4. Yes, but anything other than the purchase of F-35B is so unlikely that it is not worth discussing except as a back-up plan in the event of the F-35B being cancelled by the USA, or a breakdown in UK-US relations causing us not to buy it. The carriers are designed for F-35B. Flying anything else would need additional work & spending to fit the carriers with catapults & arrester gear, none of which is currently planned, & evaluation of alternative aircraft.
We may not have made a commitment, but we're a long way down the road towards one.
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Excellently phrased.
citizen578
New Member
Island Start for Royal Navy's World-Leading Carrier Comms System
Island Start for Royal Navy's World-Leading Carrier Comms System
A mock-up of an island superstructure that will house some of the most powerful ship-borne communication systems ever seen is being constructed on the Isle of Wight. Report by Steve Moore.
The launch of HMS Queen Elizabeth - the first of two new aircraft carriers - may be six years away, but work is progressing on a vital part of it deep in the heart of the Isle of Wight. When the vessel puts to sea she will break the mould in many ways, not least in her cost efficiency.
Central to her success - and that of the second carrier HMS Prince of Wales due in service towards the end of the next decade - will be her mission system. The system, which will use 1,740km of fibre optic cable and 14,000 items of equipment, underpins her war-fighting capability. It will support voice and data services needed to effect command and control along with management of aircraft and protection of the ship through sensors and radars.
A forest of radar and communication antennae, around 100 in all, will be grouped on the vessel's aft 'island', one of two superstructures to control ship and air traffic:
"The two carriers will be the most powerful communications platforms the Royal Navy has ever seen," said Commander Simon Petitt, combat system manager for the Queen Elizabeth class carriers. "In fact, by a factor of at least two of all UK vessels that have ever put to sea."
The two-island superstructure - separated by 85m of deck - is a cramped environment for mounting the equipment which includes communications antennae and aerials for radars and other devices such as the precision approach system to enable aircraft to find the ship. In particular, communication systems will be substantial for the carrier so that the ship can stay in contact with its aircraft, other ships in the task group, headquarters and land forces.
So work on this unique antennae arrangement to make sure all the systems work without adversely affecting each other has already begun. A team at BAE Systems Insyte electromagnetic environment facility at Cowes will begin installing each complex system on a mock-up of the aft island, due to be finished by local builders in a couple of months' time:
"The carriers will be a Heathrow-sized air traffic control centre, a complete airfield with a 1,500-person capacity office and with a full 1,500-person office IT system," said Steve Dowdell, mission system director with BAE Systems.
"They will be the first carriers to have a fully integrated mission system like this - and that includes US carriers too."
Work at Cowes is part of a £275m contract with BAE Systems for design and supply of the mission system. Building a replica of the island is designed to overcome problems which have historically emerged late in the programme when they are at their most costly to fix.
Extensive computer modelling has taken place but the aft island is being built to make sure the predictions and the real performance turn out the same:
"We have more than 200 bits of kit to integrate into the island so it's a complex environment we have to de-risk so we don't take up expensive time later," said Mr Dowdell. "We need to integrate early, little and often. The earlier you integrate the more time you have to fix problems, not six months before the end of the programme. Little and often means we can apply bits of kit incrementally - that's our mantra."
The island at Cowes represents the top 40 per cent of the aft island structure from 05 deck upwards. Above it all is a 17m pole mast, 37m above the deck and 60m above the waterline, with yet more communications kit including tactical air navigation, tactical data link and direction-finding equipment. It can be lowered hydraulically to allow HMS Queen Elizabeth to sail under the Forth road and rail bridges to get to Rosyth, the only suitable dry dock for the ship in the UK.
When completed, the island will take the equipment, much of it involving techniques and technologies new to the Royal Navy, in a phased programme. When tests have finished, the equipment will be removed and integrated onto the ship at Rosyth:
"This mock-up island will cost around £600,000. If we got things wrong it could cause weeks of delay and cost millions of pounds at the end of the programme, which is way more than the investment on this island," said Mr Dowdell. "The economics are a no-brainer; this is value added for the taxpayer."
Antennae installed will be platform equipment, tested, removed/ refurbished, stored and then delivered to Rosyth for installation on HMS Queen Elizabeth.
The primary test programme should confirm the viability of the topside arrangement by the middle of next year.
More platform equipment will be placed under the structure during 2010-2011 allowing requirements validation and trials activities to support wider mission system integration.
After the equipment is sent to Rosyth, the current plan is for the Cowes structure to be dismantled.
Some of the systems affected by the electromagnetic environment on the aft island (not all located on the aft island) include high frequency, UHF and VHF communications, Bowman, meteorological equipment, satellite television, direction-finding, tactical data link, tactical air navigation, navigation radar, international maritime satellite, Artisan medium range radar (also developed at Cowes), long range radar, identification friend or foe, precision approach radar, and satellite communications.
This report by Steve Moore was first published in the May 2009 issue of Desider - the magazine for Defence Equipment and Support.
Royal Navy
Island Start for Royal Navy's World-Leading Carrier Comms System
A mock-up of an island superstructure that will house some of the most powerful ship-borne communication systems ever seen is being constructed on the Isle of Wight. Report by Steve Moore.
The launch of HMS Queen Elizabeth - the first of two new aircraft carriers - may be six years away, but work is progressing on a vital part of it deep in the heart of the Isle of Wight. When the vessel puts to sea she will break the mould in many ways, not least in her cost efficiency.
Central to her success - and that of the second carrier HMS Prince of Wales due in service towards the end of the next decade - will be her mission system. The system, which will use 1,740km of fibre optic cable and 14,000 items of equipment, underpins her war-fighting capability. It will support voice and data services needed to effect command and control along with management of aircraft and protection of the ship through sensors and radars.
A forest of radar and communication antennae, around 100 in all, will be grouped on the vessel's aft 'island', one of two superstructures to control ship and air traffic:
"The two carriers will be the most powerful communications platforms the Royal Navy has ever seen," said Commander Simon Petitt, combat system manager for the Queen Elizabeth class carriers. "In fact, by a factor of at least two of all UK vessels that have ever put to sea."
The two-island superstructure - separated by 85m of deck - is a cramped environment for mounting the equipment which includes communications antennae and aerials for radars and other devices such as the precision approach system to enable aircraft to find the ship. In particular, communication systems will be substantial for the carrier so that the ship can stay in contact with its aircraft, other ships in the task group, headquarters and land forces.
So work on this unique antennae arrangement to make sure all the systems work without adversely affecting each other has already begun. A team at BAE Systems Insyte electromagnetic environment facility at Cowes will begin installing each complex system on a mock-up of the aft island, due to be finished by local builders in a couple of months' time:
"The carriers will be a Heathrow-sized air traffic control centre, a complete airfield with a 1,500-person capacity office and with a full 1,500-person office IT system," said Steve Dowdell, mission system director with BAE Systems.
"They will be the first carriers to have a fully integrated mission system like this - and that includes US carriers too."
Work at Cowes is part of a £275m contract with BAE Systems for design and supply of the mission system. Building a replica of the island is designed to overcome problems which have historically emerged late in the programme when they are at their most costly to fix.
Extensive computer modelling has taken place but the aft island is being built to make sure the predictions and the real performance turn out the same:
"We have more than 200 bits of kit to integrate into the island so it's a complex environment we have to de-risk so we don't take up expensive time later," said Mr Dowdell. "We need to integrate early, little and often. The earlier you integrate the more time you have to fix problems, not six months before the end of the programme. Little and often means we can apply bits of kit incrementally - that's our mantra."
The island at Cowes represents the top 40 per cent of the aft island structure from 05 deck upwards. Above it all is a 17m pole mast, 37m above the deck and 60m above the waterline, with yet more communications kit including tactical air navigation, tactical data link and direction-finding equipment. It can be lowered hydraulically to allow HMS Queen Elizabeth to sail under the Forth road and rail bridges to get to Rosyth, the only suitable dry dock for the ship in the UK.
When completed, the island will take the equipment, much of it involving techniques and technologies new to the Royal Navy, in a phased programme. When tests have finished, the equipment will be removed and integrated onto the ship at Rosyth:
"This mock-up island will cost around £600,000. If we got things wrong it could cause weeks of delay and cost millions of pounds at the end of the programme, which is way more than the investment on this island," said Mr Dowdell. "The economics are a no-brainer; this is value added for the taxpayer."
Antennae installed will be platform equipment, tested, removed/ refurbished, stored and then delivered to Rosyth for installation on HMS Queen Elizabeth.
The primary test programme should confirm the viability of the topside arrangement by the middle of next year.
More platform equipment will be placed under the structure during 2010-2011 allowing requirements validation and trials activities to support wider mission system integration.
After the equipment is sent to Rosyth, the current plan is for the Cowes structure to be dismantled.
Some of the systems affected by the electromagnetic environment on the aft island (not all located on the aft island) include high frequency, UHF and VHF communications, Bowman, meteorological equipment, satellite television, direction-finding, tactical data link, tactical air navigation, navigation radar, international maritime satellite, Artisan medium range radar (also developed at Cowes), long range radar, identification friend or foe, precision approach radar, and satellite communications.
This report by Steve Moore was first published in the May 2009 issue of Desider - the magazine for Defence Equipment and Support.
Royal Navy
Good to hear the Carriers are moving forward.
Unfortunately I'm convinced that when the Conservatives finally take power in 2010 (following a hasty defence review) they will bite the bullet and cancel the carrier project and opt instead for two smaller commando/strike carriers (40K tonnes each) to ensure Britain maintains credible expeditionary capability and also to placate the UK ship building industry. This in turn would allow for a reduction in F35B's buys. The UK is skint and needs to realign it's priorities. For one we have to replace Seaking and Puma with a common marinised airframe to support both the Army and RM on operations.
On a separate note:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...NavysLastSurvivingFalklandsWarshipRetires.htm
T42 Exeter retired from service, Wednesday 27 May 2009. The last RN vessel to serve in the Falklands campaign, shot down four Argentine aircraft - two Skyhawks and two reconnaissance planes.
UK and Pakistan Government are in discussions to transfer 3 Batch 3 Destroyers to the PN.
I wonder what cost effective upgrades will take place? Personally I'd keep the 4" Gun and replace the missile system with a more updated version.
The Phalanx units will be removed and fitted to the T45's in the interim until a new point defence system is developed under the common missile system.
Unfortunately I'm convinced that when the Conservatives finally take power in 2010 (following a hasty defence review) they will bite the bullet and cancel the carrier project and opt instead for two smaller commando/strike carriers (40K tonnes each) to ensure Britain maintains credible expeditionary capability and also to placate the UK ship building industry. This in turn would allow for a reduction in F35B's buys. The UK is skint and needs to realign it's priorities. For one we have to replace Seaking and Puma with a common marinised airframe to support both the Army and RM on operations.
On a separate note:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...NavysLastSurvivingFalklandsWarshipRetires.htm
T42 Exeter retired from service, Wednesday 27 May 2009. The last RN vessel to serve in the Falklands campaign, shot down four Argentine aircraft - two Skyhawks and two reconnaissance planes.
UK and Pakistan Government are in discussions to transfer 3 Batch 3 Destroyers to the PN.
I wonder what cost effective upgrades will take place? Personally I'd keep the 4" Gun and replace the missile system with a more updated version.
The Phalanx units will be removed and fitted to the T45's in the interim until a new point defence system is developed under the common missile system.
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I doubt it.What does Pakistan see in such outdated, manpower intensive ships?
Quote taken form JANES 27th May 09:
"The UK and Pakistan are discussing a deal under which the Pakistan Navy (PN) could acquire up to three Type 42 Batch 3 destroyers following their retirement from the Royal Navy (RN), Jane's has learned.
Meanwhile, Pakistan is conducting a separate dialogue with the United States regarding the availability of additional FFG 7 frigates, as the PN looks to recapitalise a large part of its surface combatant force through second-hand acquisitions.
The PN frigate force currently comprises six ex-RN Type 21s constituting the 25th Destroyer Squadron. Transferred between 1993 and 1994, these ships – now known as the Tariq class – have undergone significant modernisation since transfer, but all are now over 30 years old and becoming increasingly difficult to support."
They may be old, but they will be going extremely cheaply, and subject to upgrades may still fulfill a function. If the PN don't go for them then maybe the Bangladesh Navy will take up the option to replace their even older Leanders.
"The UK and Pakistan are discussing a deal under which the Pakistan Navy (PN) could acquire up to three Type 42 Batch 3 destroyers following their retirement from the Royal Navy (RN), Jane's has learned.
Meanwhile, Pakistan is conducting a separate dialogue with the United States regarding the availability of additional FFG 7 frigates, as the PN looks to recapitalise a large part of its surface combatant force through second-hand acquisitions.
The PN frigate force currently comprises six ex-RN Type 21s constituting the 25th Destroyer Squadron. Transferred between 1993 and 1994, these ships – now known as the Tariq class – have undergone significant modernisation since transfer, but all are now over 30 years old and becoming increasingly difficult to support."
They may be old, but they will be going extremely cheaply, and subject to upgrades may still fulfill a function. If the PN don't go for them then maybe the Bangladesh Navy will take up the option to replace their even older Leanders.
windscorpion
New Member
Rik, i like you think the Tories will cut the CVF, i don't really see what else could go. The escort force is already at a minimum, Trident is untouchable for various political reasons no matter what they have recently said on that subject.
However how much could the defence budget be cut by? Is the 2.0% of GDP a mandated requirement for NATO membership or a target? Its 2.1% now isn't it?
However how much could the defence budget be cut by? Is the 2.0% of GDP a mandated requirement for NATO membership or a target? Its 2.1% now isn't it?
programs to far gone they've ordered all the parts and building the thing I don't see cancellation on the cards as basically 80% of build bugect been spent and the RN will sacrifice anything bar Nuke deterrent to keep the CVF. canceling it would royally bugger up the ship building industry was was significantly altered for the build to much has been done. If this crisis had happened in 06 or 05 I might have agreed with you but now with the huge amount of stuff done nope. UK skint as far as recssetions gone one of the highest public debts but can see the Tories attacking other parts of the public sector. As far as the ressetion UK got of lightly compared with the export based nations of Germany and Japan and even the Euro area.
It nice to see old warships go to new homes I presume the PN want the T-42 as their is no used warships bar them available to them.
odd they didn't go for the Bruneian corvettes though.
A target. If every country spending less was thrown out, NATO would lose most of its members.
I had read the janes article before your post. And I agree with you and Swerve, they are going cheap, I just can't see what they would want with 3 old RN ships when they have such good contacts with China. Having said that if they don't take them, I agree Bangladesh probably would-they don't have Leanders to replace, they have even older Type 41s and Type 61s to replace!
I think they didn't go for them, for a couple of reasons...
#1. COST - Brunei probably wants to re-coup the majority of the costs they put out to have them built. For what they'd ask for x1 OPV, I think they'd probably get all 3 T42's ! Additionally, obtaining spares / training, etc would cost a fortune.
#2. TECHNOLOGY - While the PN has been upgrading it's vessels, the technology in the T42's / T22's / T21's have a reasonable amount of commonality with their current fleet. The Brunei OPV's have very little in common with any ship in the PN fleet, other than maybe running on diesel !
#3. CAPABILITY - The T21's / T22's / T42's are all relatively manpower intensive (with between 170 - 250 crew, which is how the PN like to man it's ships). The OPV's have a max. crew of 79
While Brunei OWNS the 3 ships, whoever buys them will no doubt have to do a fair amount of dealing with BAE, for support / parts / spares, etc.
There may also be issues with an export license & possibly even ITAR regulations (even though the US 'supports' Pakistan).
SA
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Why replace Sea Dart on such old ships? The missile system is still fairly up to date even though it is old since it received continuous upgrades up until 2002, the missiles are cheap and available since the RN is phasing the ships out, making their stockpile available for sale cheaply to anyone who wants the ships. Plus the missiles can be used for anti-ship work as well.
The 4.5" gun is the same one that is fitted to their ex-RN T21's. The Phalanx units will be fitted to the T45's on an as needed basis. CAMM will be VLS based and will not be unlikely to replace Phalanx as a CIWS unless a cannister form similar to RAM is developed (a good idea IMO).
Methinks that IF the PN buys the T42's, it's likely that they will do something similar to the T21's that they had refurbed in the late 90's / early 00's.
It's all about continuity. Having 12 vessels with 4 or 5 different missile / gun / radar systems doesn't exactly make financial sense.
I would agree that they'd keep the 4.5" Gun, as it's robust enough & would tie in nicely with the T21's, helping spread costs / spares, etc.
I also agree that the Phalanx wouldn't be part of any deal, as it will be refitted to another RN ship, because it's easy enough to do & will help keep RN costs down.
As for the Sea Dart, yes I know wot you're saying about the updates to the missile, but it's different to anything else they have, so it may be more prudent to replace it with the same Chinese missiles that they have on the T21's, along with the command system & the radar.
The only concerns I'd have are about how the ship would cope with the 2 or 3 tonnes of radar & equipment being that high in the top of the ship, but I'm sure that's something Thales would look at if they were to fit the DA08 radar (as it obviously works well in the ex-T21's).
Then again, whose to say that they wouldn't come back to BAE / Insyte & negotiate for all the updates & software for 996 ??
It would all come down to the big issues for everyone today - COST PER UNIT, that's assuming that they even buy the T42's to start with...
SA
Now there's an interesting point, will CAMM solely be VLS, or will they put it in a container like RAM? I was under the impression that it would be, because i'd heard that as soon as CAMM was introduced, the Phalanx would be removed, so I assumed that meant the Phalanx position would be re-roled to CAMM.
And i'm sure Phalanx are being directly transferred from T42 to T45 as they phase out of serivce.
I think the T42's a re still good ships and should suit Pakistan's needs/budget quite well after a refit. The Sea Dart is still a pretty good system, just looking at it's combat record shows that.
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I think you've listened to too much Labour scaremongering/RAF wishful thinking. The Conservatives will be told that given the near £1 billion already spent and the contracts for the full amount signed, pulling out now (writing off the money already committed, paying off companies to settle the legal challenges/paying up when losing in court, etc), commissioning a new design process, then building new carriers and forcing the Invincible class to soldier on longer (requiring more maintenance work) would cost more.
I wouldn't be surprised if they will wish they'd been in power to make different decisions, but then the Labour Party will have wished Geoff Hoon wasn't such a useless fool that he committed the UK to buying aircraft he didn't get the Treasury to agree to pay for.
kev 99
Member
MBDA have stated that it could be cannister launched (I think they mentioned 6 rounds cannisters) or quad packed in VLS, doesn't mean that it will once it becomes available though.
Any particular VLS? Are they integrating it into the Mk41/PAAMS etc?
When they say quad-packed into each cell, do they pack them vertically or horizontally?