My idea's to upgrade the Dutch military.

[Firn]

HIMARS

A single HIMARS battalion should be - as I already wrote - IMHO be organized under the operational support command of the army. It is already with GMLRS almost an strategic asset, with the ATACMS it is. All in all something between 18 and 24 pieces seem to be alright. I still wonder a bit if the increased deployability is enough to offset the loss of the second pod of the original MLRS.

All the necessary support assets (CB-radar, weather measure system, C&C) must also be aquired, if the Royal Army doesn't have already sufficient servicable and effective support assets in place. This is also very pricey.

Anyway the ability to function with AMRAAM as a GBAD asset is an interesting option, but not one of immendiate concern. Even ATACMS is not a urgent requirement while stil being a more worthwhile purchase.

The most important roles are CF, GBAD assets and both stationary and mobile (tank formations) high value targets.


Armored infantry company - Mariniers Korps

The CV90 IFV is already use in large numbers by the Royal army. I can not come up with an amphibious AFV/IFV with the same utility and effects of scale. If you can, even better.

The CV90 MFV (Mortar fighting vehicle - i made that one up) uses the same highly mobile platform and would be used in the Armored infantry (fire )support companies of the Army. Perhaps it could form a seperate (reduced) support company of the support battalion of the Korps. In this case it would be used as a direct and indirect fire support vehicle. It will mostly used in conjuncture with the armored infantry company of the Korps.

While I like the AMOS system the less ambitous NEMO could be a better choice as it is lighter and makes the vehicle less top-heavy. But with the CV90 as platform the AMOS shouldn't cause too much troubles. The awesome firepower and utility would be of immense help in a thick fight.

The Boxer will replace long-term a lot of the AFV in the Army and will be a great wheeled APC. However the CV9035NL is already in service and has the same tactical mobility as the Leo. The MFV should have it too and the comon platform makes things cheaper and so much easier for the support. Only if you want to start this reform around 2020 or so the Boxer might be the natural choice as IFV, MFV, APC and support vehicle for the Korps and the Army.


The "true" fieldartillery battalion

I forgot to mention the necessary components which make this indirect fire system complete. As with HIMARS look first at what the Royal Army got and decide then if new components are worth it. Good indirect fire support is the bread and butter of a light force.

Against strong enemy artillery a battery of PzH 2000 could get attached (perhaps besideone of HIMARS) and integrated into the indirect fire support system. With heavy protection, great range and ROF and very good mobility it is a CF component of choice.


The Marine battalions

Some of the Recon vehicles of the Marine battalions/companies should be equipped with light , detachable fire finder radars, as the ones used by the US forces. I believe that at least one per company would be of great help to the annihilate enemy mortars and artillery through the organic and supporting indirect fire assets. The dispersed nature of COIN make the large firefinders unavailable and the short-ranged nature of the thread light fire finder radars with a 360° coverage ideal.

The mortar carriers (BvS 10 or Bronco) of the support company will be partly made up by the 2 heavy mortar companies which will be dissolved. The 120mm towed mortars will be kept in storage or used at firebases and when the operational need arises.


Heavy armored support

If the threat through enemy armour is considerable and dangerous than it might be time to bring the heavy brigades or battalions/companies of the Army into the fray. Against strong enemy artillery a battery of PzH 2000 could attached beside the HIMARS and integrated into the indirect fire support system. With heavy protection, great range and ROF and very good mobility it is a CF component of choice.

The AT capabilites of the Korps are greatly enhanced by the field artillery battalion with SMart and the MFV and tracked mortar carriers with a round like Strix. ATGM like the Spike will prove to be valuable for the infantry and the IFV alike.

The Bushmaster PMV

A relative cheap vehicle which is good for patrols in IED country. A single RWS with a good sensor suite and a GMG or a HMG will provide good firepower. It should cost roughly 300000-400000€ in such an configuratoin. An relative simple active defene system might be a good choice in 5 years or so. It might be the basis for a good protected mover and for many a support vehicle.

 

[IPA35]

I agree on the HIMARS (although 24 would be a minimum IMO).
The PHZ2000 should not be given to the Marine Corps, instead more should be reactivated from storage and given to the Mechanised Brigades (we have 2 of those left...).

We should buy some extra CV90's and equipe them with long range Spike's.
However the CV90 does not fit in the Marine Corps IMO. (for mechanised brigades instead).
They should be given something like the LAV25, but as that vihicle is getting outdated new built Patria AMV's would fit better (amfibious, light).
I would say 12 with a 35mm (same as CV90) and I don't know if we need sepaate AT vehicles as the Patria is available with TOW's but if we can equipe the 35mm Patria's with Spikes (Samson?) then that would be OK and then we should buy around 16 + 4 with a mortar (AMOS or NEMO).

For the army we could buy the 120mm version (module) of the Boxer.

As for artillery for the Marine Corps we could buy the M777A2 would be ok (or L118 if you want a lighter gun).
A question: Can a Fennek tow it?

The 120mm's could be taken out of service (or just 1 company).

We should give them there own Bushmasters (18-24) maybe some with GMG's (we don't use those on our vehicles (unfortunately). (RCWS?)
We should buy more Bushmasters for the army aswell, maybe we could pull our older Patria's out of active service then?

Maybe the Patria (including mortar), HIMARS and the light gun could be bought for the airmobile brigade too (although I have now good knowledge of there exact role).
(Disban there towed mortar unit too and maybe replace there current Patria's).

Scaneagle (and other light UAV's) should be bought for the overall military.

 

[Firn]

I think that sometimes you don't read too carefully


Artillery support

I wrote that the a battery PzH 2000 should be also attachable to a new capable FA battalion of the Korps when needed, just like a Batttery of HIMARS. By this I mean that the networked system of the Korps/FA battalion must be able to integrate them and the support. This must also true for the other indirect support units aka the MFV and the mortar carriers.

Anyway a light 155mm gun is far more versatile than the old light L118 as I already wrote. It would be almost a crime to chose the latter, especially if the Korps is one day in thick fight. The Fennek should be able to tow it, but a Bushmaster variant would be a far better choice IMHO.

On HIMARS see what I wrote in the other posts. It is a fitting addition, however other systems have higher priority, especially the Bushmaster platform, the Field Artillery battalion and the wide spread integration of the a large number of ISR and Com. UAVs like the Scaneagle and Integrator in the Army, Korps and Navy.


IFV, APC, MFV platforms

I already outlined why the CV90 is IMHO the better platform than the AMV, which seems to be an excellent one. The new Boxer will be the heavy/medium wheelded platform of the army and will perform in the medium term the very same roles with some differing qualities.


Bushmaster PMV

The Korps need a large enough number of them (or of a similar vehicle) to be able to patrol among other things savely in the IED districts of Afghanistan. As mobile and great the Bv 206 is in difficult terrain it is a tincan aka deathtrap with many soldiers in it. on the roads of Afghanistan. In some areas he might avoid many but in others he will have to drive over them.
I would buy rather at least another 50 in different variants and share it across the armed forces.

A RCWS with a GMG (and a light MG) is thanks to a modern sensor suite a great asset. Other IMV might get a HMG /and a light MG). ATGMs can be a great addition on them but not in the current cirucumstances.

It should be also a safer ambulance as the old Patria in an environment as Afghanistan.


Bronco ATTC

Given the performance of this vehicle and the role it can fulfill for the Korps I would replace the aged and aging Bv 206S with them. The British Royal marines even retired the new BvS 10 from Afghanistan to bring the Broncos to the theather. I don't know how old the Dutch Bandvagons are though.



Highest priority:

Bushmaster platform in large numbers, the Field Artillery battalion with the support assets (CB-Radar, etc) and the wide spread integration of a large number of ISR and Com. UAVs like the Scaneagle and Integrator in the Army, Korps and Navy. Perhaps also the light CB radar. Perhaps also Sniper Dection systems on many AFV to allow for a quick suppression of ambushes.

Medium priority:

HIMARS, with unitary GMRLS, Mortar carriers, "heavy" IFV and MFV

Low priority

ATACMS and AMRAAM for HIMARS

 

[kato]

Triple number of PzH 2000 actively attached combat units (to 72), by bringing the artillery btls in the two mechanized brigades to 24 each (3 batteries), and building a artillery btl in OOCL with either the same amount, or two batteries and a UAV battery. No rocket launchers.

Buy German MrsKpSys on Wiesel 2 as mortar carriers a couple years down the line. AMOS is overkill.

Consider a few C-RAM systems (4-6), either as a Gepard upgrade or Skyshield; if Skyshield, explore options to tie NASAMS-SLAMRAAM into the system as an integrated stationary short- to medium-range air defense system.

As others mention, consider M777/L118 for marines and the airmobile brigade, perhaps a battery each (8 tubes) replacing the mortar companies. Use a modified Bushmaster to tow and supply (!) them - can probably carry the gun crew and perhaps up to 20-25 rounds.

 

[Firn]

Triple number of PzH 2000 actively attached combat units (to 72), by bringing the artillery btls in the two mechanized brigades to 24 each (3 batteries), and building a artillery btl in OOCL with either the same amount, or two batteries and a UAV battery. No rocket launchers.

The activation of the stored PzH is certainly the fastest way to increase the firepower of the KLM. Two full artillery btls in the mechanized brigades should to good. I guess it really depends if you want/need to have a HIMARS btl (expensive to raise, cheap maint., strategic asset, lighter) or a PzH 2000 btl. How many PzH are still in service/storage?

Buy German MrsKpSys on Wiesel 2 as mortar carriers a couple years down the line. AMOS is overkill.

The Wiesel 2 is IMHO an excellent mortar carrier for light and airmobile forces. For the Marine btl of the Korps a mortar systems similar to the MrsKpSys on the platform of a BvS 10 or Bronco (perhaps the longterm standard) would make more sense. However if you want to also give the Airmobile Brigade the IMHO much needed mobile mortar support the Wiesel 2 would be a good platform.

Consider a few C-RAM systems (4-6), either as a Gepard upgrade or Skyshield; if Skyshield, explore options to tie NASAMS-SLAMRAAM into the system as an integrated stationary short- to medium-range air defense system.

Out of lane there. Must read me into it.

As others mention, consider M777/L118 for marines and the airmobile brigade, perhaps a battery each (8 tubes) replacing the mortar companies. Use a modified Bushmaster to tow and supply (!) them - can probably carry the gun crew and perhaps up to 20-25 rounds.

I wonder how the battery gets supported and integrated. Note that the lack of large firefinders on the light brigades level would not be a problem in COIN, as the bases should be guarded by light firefinders and sinper detection systems. The Art. Btln in the OOCL would of course bring the necessary assets to a theater when the need arises.

 

[kato]

How many PzH are still in service/storage?

Depending on source 24 to 31 in service. 57 total bought, afaik whole remainder in storage.

 

[IPA35]

I think that sometimes you don't read too carefully


Artillery support

I wrote that the a battery PzH 2000 should be also attachable to a new capable FA battalion of the Korps when needed, just like a Batttery of HIMARS. By this I mean that the networked system of the Korps/FA battalion must be able to integrate them and the support. This must also true for the other indirect support units aka the MFV and the mortar carriers.

I'm sorry

The HIMARS and PHZ2000 should belong to the army and attachable when neccesary, I agree.
They wold however have there own IFV's and some in a mortar carrier version.
And some Bushmasters.

Anyway a light 155mm gun is far more versatile than the old light L118 as I already wrote. It would be almost a crime to chose the latter, especially if the Korps is one day in thick fight. The Fennek should be able to tow it, but a Bushmaster variant would be a far better choice IMHO.

Ok, I agree.

On HIMARS see what I wrote in the other posts. It is a fitting addition, however other systems have higher priority, especially the Bushmaster platform, the Field Artillery battalion and the wide spread integration of the a large number of ISR and Com. UAVs like the Scaneagle and Integrator in the Army, Korps and Navy.

UAV's certainly.


IFV, APC, MFV platforms

I already outlined why the CV90 is IMHO the better platform than the AMV, which seems to be an excellent one. The new Boxer will be the heavy/medium wheelded platform of the army and will perform in the medium term the very same roles with some differing qualities.

But would it fit there role?
New Patria's and Bushmasters could replace there current patria's.
AMV is lighter and it is amfibious, might suit there role better.

Bushmaster PMV

The Korps need a large enough number of them (or of a similar vehicle) to be able to patrol among other things savely in the IED districts of Afghanistan. As mobile and great the Bv 206 is in difficult terrain it is a tincan aka deathtrap with many soldiers in it. on the roads of Afghanistan. In some areas he might avoid many but in others he will have to drive over them.
I would buy rather at least another 50 in different variants and share it across the armed forces.

Yes, some 24 for the marine corps and the rest for the army.
Maybe to replace the old Patria's.

A RCWS with a GMG (and a light MG) is thanks to a modern sensor suite a great asset. Other IMV might get a HMG /and a light MG). ATGMs can be a great addition on them but not in the current cirucumstances.

It should be also a safer ambulance as the old Patria in an environment as Afghanistan.

A bit stupid our goverment equipped some Bushmaster with SWARM and some with CROWS, I don't really see the point in buying different RCWS's.

Bronco ATTC

Given the performance of this vehicle and the role it can fulfill for the Korps I would replace the aged and aging Bv 206S with them. The British Royal marines even retired the new BvS 10 from Afghanistan to bring the Broncos to the theather. I don't know how old the Dutch Bandvagons are though.

Maybe we could buy cheap second hand Vikings then, to replace more Bandvagn's (currently being modernised).



Highest priority:

Bushmaster platform in large numbers, the Field Artillery battalion with the support assets (CB-Radar, etc) and the wide spread integration of a large number of ISR and Com. UAVs like the Scaneagle and Integrator in the Army, Korps and Navy. Perhaps also the light CB radar. Perhaps also Sniper Dection systems on many AFV to allow for a quick suppression of ambushes.

Medium priority:

HIMARS, with unitary GMRLS, Mortar carriers, "heavy" IFV and MFV

Low priority

ATACMS and AMRAAM for HIMARS

I agree.

@Kato,
Due to budget cuts, 24 in 2009.
(First 36).
We should put like 48 in service, 24 per mechanised brigades.
We still have 56 Leo2's in service but we should put like 100 in service.
I believe they were put for sale, but not yet sold.

Let's the airmobile brigade and marine corps, specialise in light combat (and peacekeeping?).
Not that I'm a fan of peacekeeping missions.

Is the AMV air-portable like the Wiesel?

 

[Firn]

Depending on source 24 to 31 in service. 57 total bought, afaik whole remainder in storage.

@Kato,
Due to budget cuts, 24 in 2009.
(First 36).
We should put like 48 in service, 24 per mechanised brigades.

So all in all the Dutch forces have all-in-all the stunning number of 24 operational artillery pieces

Now there won't be no WP army rolling into Amsterdam any soon but it is quite an amazing low amount. It seems that Artillery is seen even more than other components of the Armed Forces as something somewhat futile and outdated.

Let's the airmobile brigade and marine corps, specialise in light combat (and peacekeeping?).
Not that I'm a fan of peacekeeping missions.

Well it seems that both are seen as well suited for stabilization missions with low intensity. There is a good deal of truth in that even if modern armored infantry btls with well protected vehicles are not out of place either when RPGs are launched and IEDs laid. It also seems that the "obsolete" MBT are rather well liked when things are heated up.

Still I have a hard time to understand why light forces don't have organic artillery support. IIRC even the mountain brigade of Germany has no longer howitzer, which is IMHO a terrible decision. In Italy there mountain regiments still have their towed heavy obici but rely on 120mm mortars in Afghanistan.

The experience in Afghanistan (and Iraq) seems to have greatly influenced the general approach to artillery. The big bang delivered with good accuracy 24/7 at some minutes notice seems to be hard to beat by other assets.

 

[kato]

So all in all the Dutch forces have all-in-all the stunning number of 24 operational artillery pieces

Yep, see this older thread where it came to my mind that the Dutch only have 24 artillery guns whereas the similar-sized, newly-designed German Intervention Forces for the post-Cold-War world have 80 guns - plus 40 MLRS.

IIRC even the mountain brigade of Germany has no longer howitzer, which is IMHO a terrible decision.

The mountain brigade (23rd) is classified part of the 5-brigade stabilization/peacekeeping/peace-enforcing forces (3 heavy, 2 light), which have a joint pool of support assets organized similar to the Dutch OOCL in the "Army Troop Brigade" - and which include 24 PzH 2000, the same amount the Netherlands are fielding for their overall 4-brigade combat structure (2 heavy, 2 light).

 

[IPA35]

Horrible isn't it?
It's because our goverment believes there will never a a new war in Europe and that NATO will save our arse always...

Howitzers and Tanks do not fit in there vision of patroling backlot countries...

We did the same thing before, a little while later the Germans sat in Amsterdam...
My hope is for Chavez to attack the Antilles or something...
Might not be neccesary almost all political parties have announced that the defence budget has to be increased.
(Atleast to NATO standards or even double it).
I'd say 3/3.5% of the goverment's budget would do...
So I don't expect further cuts on heavy equipment but I don't expect any reactivations neither.

Our military is very close to a fancy policeforce now, but atleast we haven't degraded to te level of Belgium and Austria.
But we should be on par with Sweden and even Australia IMHO.

You understand why I want to reactivate our Phz2000's and Leo2's?
We still have plenty but our goverment prefers to buy Bushmasters with IED cleaning stuff on it

EDIT: I read that they exchanged 'surplus' equipment including Phz2000's for NASAMS's with the Norwegian, is this true?

 

[petrac]

The Bushmasters are very handy right now in Afghanistan, so I can understand why we buy them.

However, I agree we should not throw away all our warfighting capabilities, although there must be a balance. We should be able to participate in missions like Afghanistan or in UN operations, but also be capable of defending our territory and project some power to protect our interests.

Although I do not agree on the uselessness of international co-operation, we should have capabilities of our own, not replicating all aspects of modern warfare, which is unattenable for our tiny country, but at least be on par.

CHeers

 

[IPA35]

Petrac, can you understand any of this?

http://www.defensie.nl/dmo/materieelprojecten/in_afstoting/pantserhouwitser_2000_(pzh_2000)/
http://www.defensie.nl/dmo/materieelprojecten/in_afstoting/leopard_2a6_gevechtstank/

Do they want to ditch ALL howitzers and tanks or just reduce the number?
And have these reductions allready been completed?

And will the (likely) increase in defence budget change anything?

Anyway: I like the Bushmasters don't get me wrong but I don't see them as a priority over maintaining warfighting capability.

I prefer our army to defend me than to defend some corrupt-former-taliban-warlord-sharia-regime in a bunch of rubble.
(Sorry!).

 

[IPA35]

The mountain brigade (23rd) is classified part of the 5-brigade stabilization/peacekeeping/peace-enforcing forces (3 heavy, 2 light), which have a joint pool of support assets organized similar to the Dutch OOCL in the "Army Troop Brigade" - and which include 24 PzH 2000, the same amount the Netherlands are fielding for their overall 4-brigade combat structure (2 heavy, 2 light).

We have 2 Mechanised Brigades (well we could skip the mechanised part withing 2 years and 1 airmobile brigade.
(A third mechanised brigade was dibanned quite recently).

Not counting the Marine Corps and the KCT.

 

[petrac]

it looks that they are withdrawing those stated numbers, yes. It is a pity that they do this and I deplore this, it is short-sighted. The government doesn't give priority to our armed forces and although I know cuts must be made during times of crises I do not agree over the current government ideas...

Well, that's politics for you and I believe we should leave it out of Defenctalk ;-)

I understand why you 9and many more people) do not like the current Afghan ops, but I think we are trying to help the people and its elected government, which has nothing to do with former Taliban and sharia, which are just the kind of people our troops are fighting together with the infant Afghan army. We western world have a responsibility over this country, which we have dropped so many times before.

Nevertheless, I still agree that our armed forces must need a minimum requirement for homeland and territorial defence. I do not believe the EU and NATO are going away anythime soon, but the way our armed forces are thinned out is not good.
We need a round-out combat formation. OK, maybe just a few brigade-sized units and no large formations anymore, but I would rather have just 2 brigades well equipped than 6 brigades so thin in warfighting equipment they lack any offensive punch.

Our armed forces deserve better than that.
But there I go again, rambling about.

Just my opinion ;-) Let's create an army mech brigade for high-end warfare and one Marine brigade and one Army airmobile brigade for strategic mobility as light forces. Cut the airforce to just 75 airframes but make sure they can fight and keep the current navy as it is, but with destroyers and OPVs which can pack a punch!

After all, maybe the army is a nice career move for the unemployed ;-)

Cheers, enjoy Queen's Day, I am off for a few days ;-)

 

[IPA35]

Thanks.

I prefer your earlier idea's.
The Brigade structure is good as it is.
I would certainly not shrink the Airforce and I would build some extra ships.
Just give the 2 mechanised brigades:
100-120 Leo 2A6's, 46-54 Pzh2000's and some 40-50 Spike-LR/ER armed CV90's.
24-36 HIMARS (with option for AMRAAM and ATACMS...)
A total of 80 Bushmasters.
Scaneagles.
Buy 24 EXTRA Boxers with 120mm Mortars.
And other small things.

Airmobile could have some ligh vehicles aswell.
Maybe Bushmaster for peacekeeping (Taken from the number of 80).

Navy would get 2-4 extra LCF's and 4-6 OPV's with containersised weapon systems.
Join the Australians for subs.
Maybe a second Amsterdam class or upgrade the old Zuiderkruis.
Buy Thomahawks and SM3's.

I would buy 80-85 Gripens, and 36 EF's (or SH's).
6-8 Embaer P-99's
3 Embraer's with Erieye.
4 Global Hawks.
Maybe UCAV's 12-24 (Mantis). (low priority)
2 Super Hercules or A400M's. (No C-17's then as we need to make it more real and cheap).
A few C-27J's (we should have the capability to arm 2 whwn neccesary). (low priority)
A total of 30 Chinooks and 20 NH90's.
And I personally would buy some nice silent heli's (Defender 500).

Reopen Twente AFB and naval air base Valkenburg.

Marine Corps:

16 CV90's or AMV's (some) with Spike's.
4 extra with Mortar's, a few comand versions and a recovery vehicle.
24 Bushmasters.
12 M777A2's.

 

[kato]

Not counting the Marine Corps

I count the Marine Corps (at brigade level itself).

And it's not like the Mechanized Brigades are going the way of Belgium's Mechanized Brigades...

 

[IPA35]

I hope not, that would be my greatest fear for them, but my new idea's are quite viable right?

 

[Firn]

Yep, see this older thread where it came to my mind that the Dutch only have 24 artillery guns whereas the similar-sized, newly-designed German Intervention Forces for the post-Cold-War world have 80 guns - plus 40 MLRS.

A good thread that one. With the shared support pool makes the decision certainly less painful, especially given the German ability to attach quite some artillery power in case it is needed.

I have not much time to answer your list, IPA 35:

Gilded items like the Global Hawk have their uses, but are very very expensive. A decent number of UAV in the MALE class with perhaps the option to go UCAV are far more cost-effective, especially if integrated with relative cheap tactical UAV in large numbers for ISR and perhaps SIGINT/Com.

From what little I know of the F-35 it should be a great asset. No immediate need for Gripen.

 

[IPA35]

The Global Hawk (4 would do) should be used to complement the P-99's (6-8) in marine surveilance to replace the 13 Orions sold to Portugal and Germany in 2004.
But other missions too.

 

[Firn]

Well in the maritime patrol support role I would use a MALE UAV with a maritime patrol radar and EO-Sensors, IIRC the IAI Heron can provide something like this.

As far as I know the Netherlands can rely on the NATO AEW&C, so no need and no money to buy such expensive and specialized tools.