If we go from top to bottom? Iirc, for 25+ tons -
Leopard 2A6M CAN (Canada)
Leopard 2A5 DK (Denmark)
PzH 2000 (Netherlands)
Marder 1A5 (Germany)
M270 (UK)
Warrior (UK)
ANA has a few hundred (more or less operational) T-54/-55/-62 and Type 59 though.
Singaporean Leopard 2A4s debut in Australia
- Thread starter winnyfield
- Start date
Leopard 2A6M CAN (Canada)
Leopard 2A5 DK (Denmark)
PzH 2000 (Netherlands)
Marder 1A5 (Germany)
M270 (UK)
Warrior (UK)
ANA has a few hundred (more or less operational) T-54/-55/-62 and Type 59 though.
The following link provides interesting background information about the Danish Leopards when compared to those operated by the Canadians. The former had modifications made specific to lessons learnt during the Gulf War.
http://www.casr.ca/ft-leopard-2a5-denmark.htm
It`s official and it is from the Chief of Army`s mouth no less. The Leo 2A4s will be extensively upgraded. Here are the details;
1) They will retain the L44 120mm gun for the time being while retaining the possbility of upgrading them to the L55 gun in future. SAF feels that the L44 will be more than adequate currently given our own threat scenarios. Instead, the SAF will leverage on new versatile kinetic energy and multiple purpose ammunition(advanced kinetic energy rounds and programmable fuze, multi-purpose rounds) to hit and kill targets.
2) New network-centric Battlefield management system to be installed so that the Leos are linked to the SAF`s over-arching battle network.(Already known)
3) New "data-bus" system for better connectivity(SAF`s UAVs and other network centric systems)
4) New Auxilliary Power Unit for better sustainability and power
5) New fire control system for enhanced lethality
6) New armour modules "all-round" for better protection;hence new look
7) New running gear to cater for new weight growth due to new armour; im guessing it will probably be in the range of 60-65 tons.
8) Other upgrades he did not mention...
1) They will retain the L44 120mm gun for the time being while retaining the possbility of upgrading them to the L55 gun in future. SAF feels that the L44 will be more than adequate currently given our own threat scenarios. Instead, the SAF will leverage on new versatile kinetic energy and multiple purpose ammunition(advanced kinetic energy rounds and programmable fuze, multi-purpose rounds) to hit and kill targets.
2) New network-centric Battlefield management system to be installed so that the Leos are linked to the SAF`s over-arching battle network.(Already known)
3) New "data-bus" system for better connectivity(SAF`s UAVs and other network centric systems)
4) New Auxilliary Power Unit for better sustainability and power
5) New fire control system for enhanced lethality
6) New armour modules "all-round" for better protection;hence new look
7) New running gear to cater for new weight growth due to new armour; im guessing it will probably be in the range of 60-65 tons.
8) Other upgrades he did not mention...
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It looks like Singapore Leo 2s will be an extremely advanced 2A5 or 2A5 plus plus or rather and more accurately a 2A6 with the L44 gun. Singapore`s Chief of Army revealed all these during an interview with the Asian Defence Journal;
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-2.jpg
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-3.jpg
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-4.jpg
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-5.jpg
The links are from Spidey, a reputable Singaporean poster in the local forums so many thanks to him.
Other stuffs mentioned during interview is that the SAF will become more mechanized and that new ICVs(probably referring to Singapore Tech Terrex(aka Singapore`s Stryker)) will be purchased. Singaporeans soldiers are already training in Alaska in US Strykers.
Secondly, Singapore`s new Himars will replace some of the FH88 39 cal 155mm artillery. It does imply that the rest will be replaced by a new system; the rumored 155mm 52 cal Primus 2 SPH perhaps?
SAF soldiers you see in the magazine are wearing the new SAF digi camo. New conscripts are already issued with the new SAF digi camo.
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-2.jpg
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-3.jpg
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-4.jpg
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo194/spyder-album3/Singapore/ADJ-Nov2008-5.jpg
The links are from Spidey, a reputable Singaporean poster in the local forums so many thanks to him.
Other stuffs mentioned during interview is that the SAF will become more mechanized and that new ICVs(probably referring to Singapore Tech Terrex(aka Singapore`s Stryker)) will be purchased. Singaporeans soldiers are already training in Alaska in US Strykers.
Secondly, Singapore`s new Himars will replace some of the FH88 39 cal 155mm artillery. It does imply that the rest will be replaced by a new system; the rumored 155mm 52 cal Primus 2 SPH perhaps?
SAF soldiers you see in the magazine are wearing the new SAF digi camo. New conscripts are already issued with the new SAF digi camo.
Hmmm, I have the feeling that the Leos are getting the AMAP armor upgrade from IBD and not an armor upgrade which is similar to what the other customers get (like in use with the Leopard 2 E, HEL and Strv 122).
IBD said it is developed for a not yet published export customer.
Singapore would fit this statement very well.
The Chief of the Army talks about enhanced all around protection.
This also would favor the IBD package because the other armor upgrades favor the more traditional frontal focused armor package.
The AMAP solution is also less heavy which would fit into the terrain restrictions faced by Singapore.
The Ammunition could very well be a combination of DM63 APFSDS-T and DM11 FRAG-T.
Given Singapore's good relations with Israel they could also buy their ammo. They have some good KEs for 120mm smoothbores and with APAM they also have a very potent and advanced HE.
As those two HEs (DM11 and APAM) are the only real advanced HE available for 120mm smoothbores.
There would also be the HE-T MkII available from Nammo (currentlyx in use with the Leclerc) but this HE is not as much programmable as the other ones.
The upgraded FCS could also be the normal upgrades available for Leopard A4s bringing them up to par with the latest Leo versions.
Could also be in indigenious solution.
The same goes for the APU.
Why somebody would want to use a new running gear is not obvious to me.
The only ones who ever did that were the Swedes who use the torsion bars from the PzH2000 to cope with the extra weight on their Strv 122. The rest uses the original parts without problems even when upgraded to heavy versions like the E and HEL.
IBD said it is developed for a not yet published export customer.
Singapore would fit this statement very well.
The Chief of the Army talks about enhanced all around protection.
This also would favor the IBD package because the other armor upgrades favor the more traditional frontal focused armor package.
The AMAP solution is also less heavy which would fit into the terrain restrictions faced by Singapore.
The Ammunition could very well be a combination of DM63 APFSDS-T and DM11 FRAG-T.
Given Singapore's good relations with Israel they could also buy their ammo. They have some good KEs for 120mm smoothbores and with APAM they also have a very potent and advanced HE.
As those two HEs (DM11 and APAM) are the only real advanced HE available for 120mm smoothbores.
There would also be the HE-T MkII available from Nammo (currentlyx in use with the Leclerc) but this HE is not as much programmable as the other ones.
The upgraded FCS could also be the normal upgrades available for Leopard A4s bringing them up to par with the latest Leo versions.
Could also be in indigenious solution.
The same goes for the APU.
Why somebody would want to use a new running gear is not obvious to me.
The only ones who ever did that were the Swedes who use the torsion bars from the PzH2000 to cope with the extra weight on their Strv 122. The rest uses the original parts without problems even when upgraded to heavy versions like the E and HEL.
AMAP is a possibility. But COA did talk about the added weight necessiting a new running gear change. AMAP isnt that heavy. Could it be the Leopard PSO then? A third alternative is the Leo 2 armour modules built by Israel. I cant remember the name of the company; somewhere in this thread.
It looks like a new Leo 2 varient is in the offing. LEO2SG ?
It looks like a new Leo 2 varient is in the offing. LEO2SG ?
Parts of or all of the PSO package are for sure a possibility.
The whole proposed package is quite heavy and it might be usefull to strengthen the running gear.
And with urban combat in mind it will defenitely be an interesting upgrade.
I first thought about AMAP because Singapore striked me as the most possible candidate for this upgrade when I first heard of it.
It offers increased all around protection (which should be enough for the threats Singapore faices) without adding too much extra weight.
There are not that many more possible AMAP customers out there and somebody has to be the one IBD mentions.
Maybe Turkey?
Norway could also be a possibility as well as Finnland.
But they face much more advanced conventional threats which would make a classical frontal focused upgrade more reasonable. Weight restrictions and urban warfare are just not that high uo their priority list.
IMHO Poland would try to make it by themselves while Switzerland already has a ready developed upgrade packages and just doesn't field it because of budget reasons.
Spain, Greece and Sweden just need to raise the A4s up to the standard of the most modern versions which they already field.
Denmark, the Netherlands and Portugal already have only upgraded Leos.
And there is no need for Chile to upgrade them at all.
I don't talk about Austria... Everytime I see their procurement system I feel better even while ours is broken...
Therefore Singapore just sounds right for me when it comes to AMAP.
But as you said some things also point into the direction of a PSO upgrade.
I have to admit that I have never seen the proposed Israeli armor upgrades for the Leopard 2. In the end I know near to nothing about them.
The whole proposed package is quite heavy and it might be usefull to strengthen the running gear.
And with urban combat in mind it will defenitely be an interesting upgrade.
I first thought about AMAP because Singapore striked me as the most possible candidate for this upgrade when I first heard of it.
It offers increased all around protection (which should be enough for the threats Singapore faices) without adding too much extra weight.
There are not that many more possible AMAP customers out there and somebody has to be the one IBD mentions.
Maybe Turkey?
Norway could also be a possibility as well as Finnland.
But they face much more advanced conventional threats which would make a classical frontal focused upgrade more reasonable. Weight restrictions and urban warfare are just not that high uo their priority list.
IMHO Poland would try to make it by themselves while Switzerland already has a ready developed upgrade packages and just doesn't field it because of budget reasons.
Spain, Greece and Sweden just need to raise the A4s up to the standard of the most modern versions which they already field.
Denmark, the Netherlands and Portugal already have only upgraded Leos.
And there is no need for Chile to upgrade them at all.
I don't talk about Austria... Everytime I see their procurement system I feel better even while ours is broken...
Therefore Singapore just sounds right for me when it comes to AMAP.
But as you said some things also point into the direction of a PSO upgrade.
I have to admit that I have never seen the proposed Israeli armor upgrades for the Leopard 2. In the end I know near to nothing about them.
SGMilitary
New Member
Singapore LEO 2A4 MBT
Dear All,
Thank you for your posting.
This is indeed an interesting updates.
There has been so many speculation on the SAF LEO's.
Anyone has any link to the number of LEO's in service now?
Regards.
Dear All,
Thank you for your posting.
This is indeed an interesting updates.
There has been so many speculation on the SAF LEO's.
Anyone has any link to the number of LEO's in service now?
Regards.
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The training area Bergen-Hohne is the biggest one in Germany and one of the biggest ones in continental europe if not the biggest one. 28.400 ha big and if one wants to drive a circle around it one has to drive for 80km.
Lots of live fire ranges are located there with main 22 ranges some of them are divided in to sub ranges for all kinds of live fire exercises including tube and rocket artillery ranges where the artillery is actually firing from fire positions in the nearer area into the training area.
While connecting some of the ranges one can run some big live fire exercises. which I for example had some exercises there which included 2 Armored/MechInf coys + artillery, AT helicopters and combat engineers running down a live fire course of 5+km.
The terrain is dictated by the northern german plain in which it is located.
It is in use since the 19th century but the heavy use started with the Wehrmacht.
These days especially the Brits and the Dutch often train there but other nations are also a common thing to see.
Just some km next to it is another training area. Munster a garrison town with 5 barracks including the german armor school which is surrounded by the training areas Munster north and south. These trainign areas are also relatively big with additional live fire and training areas.
It is also home of our regional training center for armored and mechanized infantry units using the AGDUS system (Comparable to the MILES system).
There are also several additional camps located in the area into which units can move while on an exercise.
Often an armored unit is first going to Bergen for some live fire exercises up to company level, then makes a street march to a camp in Munster where it performs some AGDUS exercises against other units. After that the unit again marches to Bergen for some final big combined arms live fire exercises of the kind I described before.
This area is probably the best trainign area for armor units which can be found in Germany with lot's of space for free running AGDUS engagements, live fire erxercises and experst from other units and the armored school around.
Only for batallion and brigade level exercises with AGDUS support our national training center is better suited but while offering excellent GPS supported AGDUS fights it doesn't offer the same big live fire areas.
The fighting distances are smaller than one might think when talking about the north german plain.
While on the ranges one can get a shot at 4km the fighting distances during the AGDUS emgagements are rather limited.
The north german plain might be described as nearly ideal for armored combat in europe but I have been in exercises where no kill was further than 1km away and camouflaged tanks in the defense regularly got kill shots at under 400m-300m.
The nightlife in Munster and Bergen is awfull though...
Mmmh, memories come back.
Due to the location of my former unit (Schleswig-Holstein on the northern tip of Germany) this area was our main training ground for bigger exercises and I had alot of fun.
Lots of live fire ranges are located there with main 22 ranges some of them are divided in to sub ranges for all kinds of live fire exercises including tube and rocket artillery ranges where the artillery is actually firing from fire positions in the nearer area into the training area.
While connecting some of the ranges one can run some big live fire exercises. which I for example had some exercises there which included 2 Armored/MechInf coys + artillery, AT helicopters and combat engineers running down a live fire course of 5+km.
The terrain is dictated by the northern german plain in which it is located.
It is in use since the 19th century but the heavy use started with the Wehrmacht.
These days especially the Brits and the Dutch often train there but other nations are also a common thing to see.
Just some km next to it is another training area. Munster a garrison town with 5 barracks including the german armor school which is surrounded by the training areas Munster north and south. These trainign areas are also relatively big with additional live fire and training areas.
It is also home of our regional training center for armored and mechanized infantry units using the AGDUS system (Comparable to the MILES system).
There are also several additional camps located in the area into which units can move while on an exercise.
Often an armored unit is first going to Bergen for some live fire exercises up to company level, then makes a street march to a camp in Munster where it performs some AGDUS exercises against other units. After that the unit again marches to Bergen for some final big combined arms live fire exercises of the kind I described before.
This area is probably the best trainign area for armor units which can be found in Germany with lot's of space for free running AGDUS engagements, live fire erxercises and experst from other units and the armored school around.
Only for batallion and brigade level exercises with AGDUS support our national training center is better suited but while offering excellent GPS supported AGDUS fights it doesn't offer the same big live fire areas.
The fighting distances are smaller than one might think when talking about the north german plain.
While on the ranges one can get a shot at 4km the fighting distances during the AGDUS emgagements are rather limited.
The north german plain might be described as nearly ideal for armored combat in europe but I have been in exercises where no kill was further than 1km away and camouflaged tanks in the defense regularly got kill shots at under 400m-300m.
The nightlife in Munster and Bergen is awfull though...
Mmmh, memories come back.
Due to the location of my former unit (Schleswig-Holstein on the northern tip of Germany) this area was our main training ground for bigger exercises and I had alot of fun.
Perhaps to add: The site also neighbors the former concentration camp Bergen-Belsen, as well as a mass grave for 30.000 Soviet POWs (iirc SG troops visited both sites btw). The neighboring Munster site is contaminated partially with WW1 chemical UXO.
Bergen and Munster are used for maneuvers at any level up to full Division level (one brigade on each of the three sub-sites Bergen, Munster-Nord and Munster-Süd), and contain bases for visiting troops at this level.
Bergen and Munster are used for maneuvers at any level up to full Division level (one brigade on each of the three sub-sites Bergen, Munster-Nord and Munster-Süd), and contain bases for visiting troops at this level.
The German Tank Battalion 93 is stationed in Munster, next to Bergen. That is "my" battalion, where I learned how to use a Leopard 2. Probably your fellow Singaporeans are doing the same stuff right now that I had to do 3 years ago.
The training range of Bergen is huge. You meet soldiers from Germany, USA, Britain, Dutch and else there. And now you even meet Singaporeans
The training range of Bergen is huge. You meet soldiers from Germany, USA, Britain, Dutch and else there. And now you even meet Singaporeans
Waylander, kato & DavidDCM,
Many many thanks for the replies all of you. Going overseas gives our conscripts exposure to other ways of doing things and broadens our horizons. More importantly, the training area in Singapore is way too small to do effective tank training (it's like learning to drive in a bumper car arena - not even close to realistic) and we are grateful for the opportunity to use the Bergen-Hohne training area.
Many many thanks for the replies all of you. Going overseas gives our conscripts exposure to other ways of doing things and broadens our horizons. More importantly, the training area in Singapore is way too small to do effective tank training (it's like learning to drive in a bumper car arena - not even close to realistic) and we are grateful for the opportunity to use the Bergen-Hohne training area.
The weather these days here in northern Germany is quite good tanker weather.
Not too cold or too hot. It is also not that dry so that there are not that many fires on the ranges and the dust cloud created by the tanks is not that big. On the other hand it is also not that wet. The ditches in Bergen and Munster tend to mutate into small lakes as soon as it really starts to rain...
BTW, do you Singaporeans perform your live fire exercises in Australia with training ammunition or with hot rounds?
@David
I wouldn't wonder if the Singaporeans also get to see a little show performed by Panzerlehr.
To see them performing is always quite nice if one can get a place on one of the tribunes.
Not too cold or too hot. It is also not that dry so that there are not that many fires on the ranges and the dust cloud created by the tanks is not that big. On the other hand it is also not that wet. The ditches in Bergen and Munster tend to mutate into small lakes as soon as it really starts to rain...
BTW, do you Singaporeans perform your live fire exercises in Australia with training ammunition or with hot rounds?
@David
I wouldn't wonder if the Singaporeans also get to see a little show performed by Panzerlehr.
To see them performing is always quite nice if one can get a place on one of the tribunes.
Talking about weather and training. Have there been some guys from Singapore doing mountain training in Austria (Tyrol) or northern Italy (Southtyrol)? Should beat the scenery of rainy northern Germany
Not that it doesn't rain in Alps
Not that it doesn't rain in Alps
A good position, good camoflage and a cool engine and gun seem to make things difficult for the attacking force. I always wondered how well we - light infantry - would light up on thermal sights.
In normal conditions infantry gets spotted at good distances if they are moving.
A well camouflaged firing position in a foxhole ont the other hand is very difficult to spot before it opens fire.
That's one of the main problems for light infantry. If they have to move in relatively open terrain they may very well get a programmable 120mm HE ontop of their squad from a tank 2 klicks away which they haven't even seen before it fires.
And when there is fog the thermals loose alot of their effectiveness. I once were in an AGDUS training with alot of fog.
We had alot of tank to tank fights within a 100-200 meters in the more densely wooded areas because we just didn't see them earlier (And alot of friendly fire incidents as well...).
In such circumstances it is nearly impossible to track enemy infantry before they pop up at your side or rear with a Panzerfaust and ruin your day.
I have no idea how very hot conditions differ.
Eckherl has and I expect alot of our Australian members have desert experience and our Singaporeans should be able to tell us how thermals work in hot and humid environments with lots of vegetation.
A well camouflaged firing position in a foxhole ont the other hand is very difficult to spot before it opens fire.
That's one of the main problems for light infantry. If they have to move in relatively open terrain they may very well get a programmable 120mm HE ontop of their squad from a tank 2 klicks away which they haven't even seen before it fires.
And when there is fog the thermals loose alot of their effectiveness. I once were in an AGDUS training with alot of fog.
We had alot of tank to tank fights within a 100-200 meters in the more densely wooded areas because we just didn't see them earlier (And alot of friendly fire incidents as well...).
In such circumstances it is nearly impossible to track enemy infantry before they pop up at your side or rear with a Panzerfaust and ruin your day.
I have no idea how very hot conditions differ.
Eckherl has and I expect alot of our Australian members have desert experience and our Singaporeans should be able to tell us how thermals work in hot and humid environments with lots of vegetation.
As a former grunt, I don't know. We'll have to wait for one of the armour guys to answer.
We don't do true 'mountain warfare training' (where you can get altitude sickness), though in certain overseas training we do operate in mountainous terrain.Firn said:
There is some funding for adventure climbing / training and our teams have been to a few mountains. I'm not sure about our guys in Austria (Tyrol) or northern Italy (Southtyrol) but LTC Ang Yau Choon climbed Mount Everest in May 2007.
Agreed, infantry on the move, at battalion or brigade level tactical formations are not difficult to spot or hear (especially by recce forces or even via UAVs), in the open or even in the jungle (it's the sheer numbers moving that gives us away). When we are stationary, we have even managed to surprise wild boars in the jungle. However, if infantry are stationary (in a block force position or in a hasty ambush position, at section and platoon levels), we are virtually impossible to find even if we provide you with the grid reference of our deployment on the map. Our jungle warfare school in Brunei, provides excellent training in this regard. The bigger the group, the bigger the foot print - our foot print and our support and resupply vehicles at certain command levels onwards are a dead give away.Waylander said:
IMHO, in the night, thermals work well in hot & dry and/or hot & humid environments with lots of vegetation. However, in hot & dry conditions, with bush fires going off easily, in that condition, thermals are useless.
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I talked more about the ability to spot smaller groups of infantry while they are on the move. With the optics and thermals of an AFV one is able to spot even just a couple of guys when they have to move.
At batallion or even brigade level the footprint of a modern infantry unit is not much harder to find than the one of a mechanized unit.