New submarines for Sweden, Singapore and Australia?

yoron

New Member
So we might come together around the new sub then Vivendi?
Like GF (gf0012-aust) thought, :) but for specific goals. Thats good for all involved I think, the shorter the chain and logistics involved from hand to mouth, the better results so to speak. To have your provider of armaments far away may work in peacetime, but, if it ever would come to a modern war between two industrialized Nations I would put my money on that shorter 'chain'. That kind of war will probably be fought at a ferocious pace. This pdf seems more of a 'organic mode' of creation too.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
but, if it ever would come to a modern war between two industrialized Nations I would put my money on that shorter 'chain'. That kind of war will probably be fought at a ferocious pace.
In other words such a war would be fought with what you got on stock. At the very most you could have surplies of "ammo", ready to be put in the launch tube or gun chamber. There will not be time to introduce anything new.

But wouldn't that also mean that the producer is out of the picture, because he can't produce shells and missiles fast enough to feed the beast and he doesn't have a stock, so your only option is to get access to another nation's stock - or have your own stockpile *large enough*.
 

yoron

New Member
As far as I understand a modern war is when you take out the enemy's military capability. With modern aircrafts and good planning I expect that first strike to be rather overwhelming. Stockpiles is what counts the moment after that strike, after that it will be what industrial capability you have left. No Country wants a war to 'drag on' without a victory. The longer it takes the worse the aggressors chances will be as others join the fray. So yes, one need that first buffer to make it through that first strike. And if you do, then I believe you will survive your war. Winning over your enemy will be another matter though. That will involve other strategy's.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As far as I understand a modern war is when you take out the enemy's military capability.
It's not just a kinetic model.

It's about a soft or hard ability to deter, deny or destroy your enemies capacity to respond militarily in an effective manner.

you don't need to strangle a stockpile to achieve that end. (although in a total war concept you probably would)
 

Firn

Active Member
Very interesting stuff. But it will be a conventional design? You mentioned it will be more like a SSGN without the N.
AFAIK our studies for a post U-212A sub involve (among others) some kind of a stretched U-212A-like design incorporating many of the SSGN-related features combined with much better sensor gear and much better AIP-performance. Seems to be the way to go.
Funny that I thought that this would too be the way to go for the German Navy in particular. A capable SSG outgrowth based on U 212A and the wealth of present knowledge would be a force multiplier. For most navies already operating submarines it is also a logical step to take. A modern, compact one like the U 212A retains still all its value...
 
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SGMilitary

New Member
Any concrete plans for RSN participation in the A26 development?

If that is true, it will likely that 4 units of A26 to be procured as replacement

to the 4 Sjoormen that the RSn currently operates.

Any link?
 

winnyfield

New Member
From the White Paper regarding the Future Sub:

9.8 For this project to succeed, we need to engage with a number of overseas partners during the design and development phase. In particular, the Government intends to continue the very close level of Australia-US collaboration in undersea warfare capability. This will be crucial in the development and through life management of the Future Submarine.
 

luca28

New Member
Kockums to Design Sweden‘s Next-Generation Submarine

Sweden‘s A26 Submarine Programme to Enter Next Phase after Government Approval
defence.professionals | defpro.com


defpro.com | Following last week’s approval by the Swedish government to initiate the design phase, the country’s Defence Materiel Administration (Försvarets materielverk, FMV) awarded Kockums AB, a 100% subsidiary of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, with a contract for the overall design of Sweden’s next-generation submarine. This decision is considered to confirm the government’s intention to further develop Sweden’s submarine capability, after the programme was delayed and failed to be carried out as a multi-national Scandinavian procurement programme, as it was planned earlier. Initiation of the design phase for the submarines, designated A26, was already approved by the Swedish government in December 2007.

Several years ago, Sweden was involved in talks with Norway and Denmark, within the framework of the so-called “Viking” project, to build a tri-national next-generation submarine. However, after Denmark decided not to operate any submarines in the future, Norway also left the project and it was continued as a national programme. Nevertheless, Norway has shown continued interest and is examining a possible future purchase of the submarine. For the time being, this remains a national programme, which so far is intended to provide two submarines for the Swedish Navy, as confirmed Ulf Lindström, Press Relations Manager at the FMV. However, the final number of next-generation submarines to be procured has not yet been decided by the government.

Commenting the order for the overall design Kockums CEO Ola Alfredsson said: “This is an important first step, not only for Kockums, but for the Swedish Armed Forces as a whole. We shall now be able to maintain our position at the cutting edge of submarine technology, which is vital in the light of current threat scenarios. HMS Gotland demonstrated what she is capable of during two years [June 2005 - July 2007] of joint exercises in the water off the USA. This next-generation submarine marks a further refinement of technology.”

According to Kockums, the naval capabilities of the new generation will focus on littoral operations, however, without abandoning the significant ocean-going capabilities. It will be powered by a conventional diesel-electric propulsion machinery and will be equipped with Kockums Stirling AIP system (air-independent propulsion). The latter have already been successfully operated with the Gotland-class submarines and made them most interesting to the US Navy which leased a Gotland-class vessel for naval exercise purposes. The Sterling AIP system, combined with a set of balanced underwater signature properties, makes the submarine very difficult to detect and allows it to stay submerged for weeks. Furthermore, Kockums will also attempt to create a design highly invulnerable to underwater explosions through a verified shock resistance.

Ulf Lindström further commented on the capabilities of Sweden’s future submarines: “The submarine will, among other new features, be equipped to support Special Forces operations as well as future use of autonomous or remotely controlled underwater vehicles.” The submarine, which is intended to provide a high degree of modularity “is also optimised for efficient production using large resiliently mounted platforms and a highly modular interior,” explained Lindström.

A key element in the future operations of the submarines will be information gathering, as Senior Vice President PR & Communications at Kockums, Kjell Göthe, told defpro.com. The combination of sensors and noiseless propulsion is to enable the submarine to see and hear everything over a wide area while remaining undetected.

As Mr Göthe said, the recently awarded design contract, which will be carried out during the next two years, is an important success for Kockums and supports the further sustainment and development of Swedish expertise and know-how in the field of naval development and construction. The government is scheduled to take a decision on the building phase in spring 2010 and is aiming at 2017 for the launch of the first vessel.


Key data* of the next-generation submarine (A26):

• Length: 63m (ca.)
• Pressure hull diameter: 6,4m (ca.)
• Two pressure tight compartments

• Displacement:
- Surfaced:1,700 m³ (ca.)
- Submerged: 1,860 m³ (ca.)

• DE-Gensets: 3 x 500 kW
• Stirling AIP system Mk III: 3 x 65 kW
• Crew size (mission dependent): 17-28

(*The data has been provided by the Swedish FMV.)


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By Nicolas von Kospoth, Managing Editor
defence.professionals | defpro.com
 

LancasterBomber

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
With the exception of Palnatoke the discussion and analysis by all concerned in this thread has been outstanding. Great read!
 
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