JF-17's WS-10A Engine

[ghazaliy2k]

india's Tejas going for general electric eg-414 engine and israili avonics. chinese ws10a trust is almost equel to any u.s modern engine so we should go for it as indian will not getting this technology u now u.s policy. and for avonics we should go for u.s or e.u because they have good technology.

france or italy is good option.

so jf17 ii is born with

*ws10a engine (two engine for better weapon laod)
*western avonics made in pakistan under license
*composite material body

cost price is may be aorund 25-30 million $
4.5 gen
ready in 2015 (as four year record time we made jf17)akistan

 

[ROCK45]

4 year plan

Hi ghazaliy2k
Very wishful thinking on your part

india's Tejas going for general electric eg-414 engine and israili avonics.

Have contracts been signed? Tegas going on a long time not sure about the Israeli avionics, Israel is a major arms exporter to India could be possible.

chinese ws10a trust is almost equel to any u.s modern engine

Other may know more but engine life is important to not just thrust didn't China buy more AL-31? Saying it's equal are big words lets see how it holds up over a few years time and go from there.

As for the other parts of your post wanting something and Pakistan having the funding for it are two different things. I suggest reading up on the JF-17 and J-10 more there are some good threads here in this forum with a lot of useful information.

Hope that helps

 

[ghazaliy2k]

thanks for your comments

latest news is that they already have ge-404 engine in that plane which fly during aeroasia 2009. check youtube. they are almost done with ge-414 engine as they express in aeroindia 2009. ws10a already in production. and will be fit in j10a for pakistan and price will be around 32-40 million so why don't we upgrade jf17 ?. even if we change the the price will not more then 20 million as PAF sources say jf 17 per unit is 12 million $

 

[Misguided Fool]

india's Tejas going for general electric eg-414 engine and israili avonics.

As far as i'm aware the Tejas is to be fitted with, in the long term, the Kaveri engine, which is supposed to outperform a ge 414.

chinese ws10a trust is almost equel to any u.s modern engine

Care to prove it? Sources please .

So we should go for it as indian will not getting this technology u now u.s policy.

Us policy in recent years has shifted away from blind support to Pakistan to a more reliable and less ... aggressively inclined power in the subcontinent as a future counterweight to their perceieved chinese "threat", and as pakistan and china are best buddies your statement doesn't seem to be very logical.

and for avonics we should go for u.s or e.u because they have good technology.

I don't know if you know, but i certainly know that the public in the UK atleast doesn't really like Pakistan, not because of its religion but ever since it came out that Pakistan is where terrorism started and grew. So "policy" will prevent, imo, Pakistan ever getting their hands on US or EU avionics, except as perhaps an "aid" package in return for greater help fighting the islamsists up north and west.

france or italy is good option.

Except some outdated Mirages, and some Agosta (i think?) submarines, France hasn't made any major sales to Pakistan.

*ws10a engine (two engine for better weapon laod)
*western avonics made in pakistan under license
*composite material body

As you seem so focussed on comparisons with the Tejas, the Tejas will be mass produced with a Kaveri engine (in the future ofcourse), an Indian engine made with foreign assistance in India, Israeli avionics (one of the best in the world), and a mostly composite material body.

cost price is may be aorund 25-30 million $

Please provide sources.

4.5 gen

4.5 gen is F-35, Su MKI, Su 37 ... and meaning no offense, but the JF17 seems more like a Ching Kuo equivalent!

ready in 2015 (as four year record time we made jf17)

While such a short time frame is impressive, you can hardly claim that "we" as in the pakistanis developed this plane in 4 years - it was mostly the chinese .

 

[ghazaliy2k]

for current tejas specification
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/specs.html
e.u offer for engine
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=248386
hear is ur link
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/concluding-part-of-two-part-series-on.html
http://kuku.sawf.org/News/56627.aspx
http://indianaerospace.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/error-404-performence-not-found/

so say good bye to kavari engine and yes to ge engine + only 20 will be made for IAF not mass production like jf 17. LOL

HAL is playing with the heart og their people.

we are manufacturing 52 % frame and 62 % avonics of jf17 and at the of next year we acheive 100 % manufacturing of jf 17 not like su 30 mki that till date manufactured in russia and don't say we made this we made that tell me in % that you what % did you made for su 30 mki ? we (China & Pakistan) made plane by our self and our engine is also certified now and will be fitted to jf 17 in this year end not like india avonics from isreal, engine from us, assistance from france and russia LOL

 

[hovercraft]

ghazaliy2k, i think you are over exited on JF-17 program. And want to start debate on JF-17 and LCA. and i think there is no need for this.

 

[Misguided Fool]

Just quoting the second article you gave (ajai shukla is as far as i know an unreliable source -as is much of the indian media )

The aircraft was to be eventually powered by the Kaveri engine but in September 2008 it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production power plant would have to be selected.
...
"The subsequent squadrons could fly with an upgraded version of [the] Kaveri engine," he added

The third article doesn't really say anything about the Kaveri being a failure - just what it needs to do.

Yes, in the short term, 20 will be made. However, the HAL Tejas is India's first real attempt at indigenous development (unless you count the Marut?), and yeah, going from importing fighters to a fourth generation light multirole aircraft similar to a gripen is pretty difficult when the country has little to no experience in similar fields previously.

China did it by reverse engineering and mass producing obsolete soviet stuff. Without their JF 10 (notice they're exporting the JF 17, not comparable to the JF 10 itself, incase their longtime ally the Pakistanis end up a failed state, with it's associated repurcussions ) and their Su27s, China's airforce would be totally obsolete.

I guess your final statements are cliche jingoism that one grows used to when surfing the internet .

Oh and BTW, you will find that Pakistan has a very very small industrial base, and China isn't exactly regarded for its quality when it comes to most products. The US is the sole superpower, which is well renowned for its aircraft engines, Israel well renowed for its avionics, Russia is a long time ally of India that has lent help when needed and France has cooperated with India many a time. A Tejas incorporating a US engine, Israeli avionics, with Russian and French help hardly seems like such a bad thing. Unless you count making friends throughout the world through peaceful cooperation an awful idea.

Sorry for going off topic!

 

[Blitzo]

Hi ghazaliy2k
Very wishful thinking on your part


Have contracts been signed? Tegas going on a long time not sure about the Israeli avionics, Israel is a major arms exporter to India could be possible.


Other may know more but engine life is important to not just thrust didn't China buy more AL-31? Saying it's equal are big words lets see how it holds up over a few years time and go from there.

As for the other parts of your post wanting something and Pakistan having the funding for it are two different things. I suggest reading up on the JF-17 and J-10 more there are some good threads here in this forum with a lot of useful information.

Hope that helps

The Al-31F are probably replacements for the already in serivce Al-31F's for the J-10's and Sukhois.
We need to consider a source, if it says chinese made fighters, and then finally how reliable the source is.

 

[Blitzo]

As you seem so focussed on comparisons with the Tejas, the Tejas will be mass produced with a Kaveri engine (in the future ofcourse), an Indian engine made with foreign assistance in India, Israeli avionics (one of the best in the world), and a mostly composite material body.


Please provide sources.
4.5 gen is F-35, Su MKI, Su 37 ... and meaning no offense, but the JF17 seems more like a Ching Kuo equivalent!

Well the JF-17 is comparable to the Ching Kuo, and LCA (and F/A-50). I got this from defence industry daily. Which I think is a fairly unbiased source in terms of this subject. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/stuck-in-sichuan-pakistani-jf17-program-grounded-02984/

And the F-35 is 5th gen. Not 4.5...

And a link for the thrust of the WS-10A (there's a table one can consult near the bottom of the page):http://http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=1145

Obviously there are many Indian claims and Western claims that the engine is underpowered, etc... But most people who have followed developments agree the thrust is (just a bit) better than the Al-31F and comparable to the American F110.

 

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

thanks for your comments

latest news is that they already have ge-404 engine in that plane which fly during aeroasia 2009. check youtube. they are almost done with ge-414 engine as they express in aeroindia 2009. ws10a already in production. and will be fit in j10a for pakistan and price will be around 32-40 million so why don't we upgrade jf17 ?. even if we change the the price will not more then 20 million as PAF sources say jf 17 per unit is 12 million $

WS-10A engines are different in dimension and gear position then the WS-13. For a JF-17/FC-1 to be fitted with WS-10A you'll need structural change, to accomadate the larger diameter of the turbofan, then since it has more thrust it requires more airflow, so your air intake area will need to increase. Then your center of gravity for the aircraft will be out of balance. Its like fitting a truck engine into a hatchback car.

Its well known knowledge that WS-10 had equal or equivalant thrust to any common western engine in service, its major draw backs were start up time, and reliability issues, which were solved in the WS-10A. It still has some bugs in the engine, but that'll clear up with experience and time. Looking good on theory (paper) and actuall testing/service is different. Engineers learn from failures/experience.

 

[Feanor]

The bottom line being that the project of a twin-engined JF-17 with the WS-10A engine and 4.5th gen sensors and avionics is complete sci-fi.

 

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

twin engine??? forgot to read that bit. thought ghazaliy2k was trying to say replacing the single engine RD-93 with WS-10A.

 

[Type59]

ws 10, wont fit. Stupid suggestion because no one has suggested it would happen. J 10 is gonna be the premier fighter, alongside f 16 block 52. JF 17 is a 4th generation replacement of most of fleet with bvr missiles and precision strike capability.


LOL to guy f 35 is 4.5 gen. USA is not spending 100 plus billion to make an F 16 equivalent.

Why's LCA being discussed.

Failed state reference is an ***** wetdream.


I come to relise, this is a fanboy wish thread.

 

[Type59]

4.5th gen sensors and avionics is complete sci-fi.

That part is not sci fi. Newer radar and avionics can be fitted as time passes, but agree with engines is being sci fi.

 

[Feanor]

I mean within the timeframe he's talking about.

 

[Misguided Fool]

ws 10, wont fit. Stupid suggestion because no one has suggested it would happen. J 10 is gonna be the premier fighter, alongside f 16 block 52. JF 17 is a 4th generation replacement of most of fleet with bvr missiles and precision strike capability.


LOL to guy f 35 is 4.5 gen. USA is not spending 100 plus billion to make an F 16 equivalent.

Why's LCA being discussed.

Failed state reference is an ***** wetdream.


I come to relise, this is a fanboy wish thread.

Depends what Generations you're talking about. Third generation in my (limited ) experience refers to MiG21 type planes; Fourth generation f 16, 5th generation f22. There is a big difference between even an upgraded f16 and a F22. A F35 is much less advanced than the F22; costing 80 million whereas the F22 costs nearly twice that at 140 million.

My opinion is that the F22 is a fifth gen fighter - stealthy and nearly unnoticeable by radar. The F35 is not nearly as stealthy as a F22, nor as technologically advanced.

 

[Feanor]

You're wrong in terms of the F-35. It's in many ways more advanced then the F-22.

 

[HKSDU]

Depends what Generations you're talking about. Third generation in my (limited ) experience refers to MiG21 type planes; Fourth generation f 16, 5th generation f22. There is a big difference between even an upgraded f16 and a F22. A F35 is much less advanced than the F22; costing 80 million whereas the F22 costs nearly twice that at 140 million.

My opinion is that the F22 is a fifth gen fighter - stealthy and nearly unnoticeable by radar. The F35 is not nearly as stealthy as a F22, nor as technologically advanced.

You cannot use cost of the aircraft as a way of determining its technology level. Su-27 cost less then F-15, yet they are comparable. And F-35 not as technological advance as F-22. Complete nonsence. F-35 uses a single engine to create horizontal thrust and vertical thrust. Its swivel nozzle is way more advance then the engines on the F-22. F-22 is single mission aircraft with only air dominance in mind, while the F-35 is more flexible having both ground and air dominance. The unit cost being lower cause their is more being mass produced, as to the F-22 with only American airforce absorbing the cost. The F-35 has several nations, that contributed to the budget, and purchasing.

 

[kay_man]

WS-10A engines are different in dimension and gear position then the WS-13. For a JF-17/FC-1 to be fitted with WS-10A you'll need structural change, to accomadate the larger diameter of the turbofan, then since it has more thrust it requires more airflow, so your air intake area will need to increase. Then your center of gravity for the aircraft will be out of balance. Its like fitting a truck engine into a hatchback car.

Its well known knowledge that WS-10 had equal or equivalant thrust to any common western engine in service, its major draw backs were start up time, and reliability issues, which were solved in the WS-10A. It still has some bugs in the engine, but that'll clear up with experience and time. Looking good on theory (paper) and actuall testing/service is different. Engineers learn from failures/experience.

yes that is correct.
the new engine for LCA was chosen coz Kaveri engine wasnt ready.
why would u want to replace the engine in JF-17 which was intented for it .
apart from extensive modifaications which will take time, there is also the money factor which is more imortant to Pakistan right now.
Also i heard that the WS-10 engines were having some high altitude problems ( ill get more info and be more specific) and thats why they chose Russian engine for J-11 and initial J-10 production.

 

[crobato]

Where did you hear this "high altitude" problems thing? Specifically, from the J-10 test pilot (Colonel Liu) interview, he mentioned that the first five prototypes of the J-10 was fitted with the WS-10 (the current ones are WS-10A with the A), and that the engine had a bit of a long spool time. So they went with the AL-31FN instead.

Had nothing to do with the J-11, since the J-11 contracts was originally booked with the AL-31F as a start.

There is absolutely no way you can fit any of the WS-10 in any variant to the JF-17. The fuselage won't fit the diameter of the engine and there is also the increase in weight.