Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi Stingray, these are the most recent pictures of JCI.
Fantastic pictures. Shes really taking shape, the close ups on the bridge area are great. Shaping up to be awesome looking ships, I am so glad Australia went with the BPE/JCI design. I think they will be the nicest looking ships in the RAN.

Excited about the pod fitting, as this is a particularly interestingand novel part of this design.

Definately keep us updated, we are all interested in the JCI build progress down here.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Navy is losing 6x Sea Kings, but gaining 6x MRH-90 (until the new maritime helo comes along anyway, at which time the MRH-90 attached to navy might revert to Army).

The Sea Kings have more airlift capacity than the MRH-90, but the sortie rate is a completely different kettle of fish, as is availability and capability to enter "threat" environments.
Funny, I was under the impression that the MRH-90's being acquired were roughly comparable to the lift capacity of the Sea King's they were replacing. The MRH-90 being a lighter aircraft overall, but due to the use of composites$ has a lighter airframe enabling it to carry ~4,500 kg of stores or cargo, while the Sea King can carry somewhere in the same area of 3,600 kg of cargo. Granted, the Sea King can carry a max of ~28 passengers to ~20 on the MRH-90 IIRC, still, roughly equivalent.

-Cheers
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Granted, the Sea King can carry a max of ~28 passengers to ~20 on the MRH-90 IIRC, still, roughly equivalent.
The Sea King other role is rescue, and if you are the 21st in the water almost anywhere in the Pacific or Indian oceans, you will want those Sea Kings back :(

They are old though, and the only other aircraft with that capacity is from Russia.

Cheers
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Sea King other role is rescue, and if you are the 21st in the water almost anywhere in the Pacific or Indian oceans, you will want those Sea Kings back :(

They are old though, and the only other aircraft with that capacity is from Russia.
What? I don't know what Sea Kings you guys are thinking of but those on the way out in the RAN are medium sized helicopters. The MRH-90 can lift more fuel and/or cargo. So it can fly more and further than any Sea King. The only thing the Sea King has that MRH-90 doesn't is a radar. Since the MRH-90 has a FLIR and digital cockpit and navigation system it can do more than in terms of finding things in the dark than the Sea King even without a radar.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The MRH-90 being a lighter aircraft overall, but due to the use of composites$ has a lighter airframe enabling it to carry ~4,500 kg of stores or cargo, while the Sea King can carry somewhere in the same area of 3,600 kg of cargo. Granted, the Sea King can carry a max of ~28 passengers to ~20 on the MRH-90 IIRC, still, roughly equivalent.
The MRH-90 can carry a 4.6 tonne mix of fuel and cargo. Usually only 2.5 tonnes is set aside for cargo and the rest for fuel. Sea King can carry a 3 tonne mix of fuel and cargo.

The MRH-90 will be configured with up to 20 seats and there is no way there is 28 seats in a RAN Sea King. From memory its about 12 passenger spots. The rear bay of the MRH-90 is far better shaped and much wide with two cargo doors and a ramp compared to a single cargo door. So much better for carrying stuff.
 
A

Aussie Digger

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The MRH-90 can carry a 4.6 tonne mix of fuel and cargo. Usually only 2.5 tonnes is set aside for cargo and the rest for fuel. Sea King can carry a 3 tonne mix of fuel and cargo.

The MRH-90 will be configured with up to 20 seats and there is no way there is 28 seats in a RAN Sea King. From memory its about 12 passenger spots. The rear bay of the MRH-90 is far better shaped and much wide with two cargo doors and a ramp compared to a single cargo door. So much better for carrying stuff.
I might have been thinking of the Royal Navy's Royal Marine Commando supporting Sea Kings, but RAN's are the same fuselage length and the Royal Navy's Sea Kings have seating for 27x pax...
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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I might have been thinking of the Royal Navy's Royal Marine Commando supporting Sea Kings, but RAN's are the same fuselage length and the Royal Navy's Sea Kings have seating for 27x pax...
Yeah the Commando Sea Kings are very different to the RANs. The RAN Sea Kings are standard ASW birds with the dipping sonar removed. So you sill have an observer (SENSO) position right opposite the right side door. Still I don't know how they fit "28 fully equipped troops" into a Sea King Commando. They must'n have seats and all be piled in on each other. There is not much room. Also with such a load on board there would be no weight remaining for fuel so range would be all of 15 minutes... If you applied the same methodology to the MRH-90 it could carry up to 40 fully equipped troops.
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
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As we talk off helos.
Is the distribution still as planned? With 2 Sqaudrons for Army Ops,1 for SpecOps. 4 Helos for Training and 6 Helos for the Navy?

Another Factor how Many Helos has the ADF lost over the past lets say 15 Years?. Im aware of 1 Black Hawk and 1 Seaking in the last 4 Years. Any others. Because withe this MRH Procurement and other Helo Programms nobody seems to take attrition into account
Plus the two Blackhawks at High Range (night SAS insertion ex.) or was that more than 15 years ago?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Yeah the Commando Sea Kings are very different to the RANs. The RAN Sea Kings are standard ASW birds with the dipping sonar removed. So you sill have an observer (SENSO) position right opposite the right side door. Still I don't know how they fit "28 fully equipped troops" into a Sea King Commando. They must'n have seats and all be piled in on each other. There is not much room. Also with such a load on board there would be no weight remaining for fuel so range would be all of 15 minutes... If you applied the same methodology to the MRH-90 it could carry up to 40 fully equipped troops.
According to the "RN fact sheet" they have seating for 27x, but it doesn't really specify who the seating is for. It is quite possible they are cheating and including pilots, etc.

All helos can carry more bodies when "tac loaded". Some Blackhawks I've seen have carried more than 20 digs.

I don't personally enjoy such experiences, but at least you get a better understanding of personal hygiene out of it...
 
A

Aussie Digger

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Plus the two Blackhawks at High Range (night SAS insertion ex.) or was that more than 15 years ago?
I am pretty sure ADF has lost a total of 5x Blackhawks since they entered service in the late 80s.

The infamous High Range (2x) and the Fiji helo incidents are the most notable, but I believe they are currently running 34x out of 39x originally purchased,
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
According to the "RN fact sheet" they have seating for 27x, but it doesn't really specific who the seating is for. It is quite possible they are cheating and including pilots, etc.

All helos can carry more bodies when "tac loaded". Some Blackhawks I've seen have carried more than 20 digs.

I don't personally enjoy such experiences, but at least you get a better understanding of personal hygiene out of it...
27 in a SeaKing? Looking at how fat some of the diggers are, then I have a doubt. :) A platoon of Bantu tribesman all geared up might get in with a pinch
- but 27 fully geared diggers?

I'd like to see that!
 
A

Aussie Digger

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27 in a SeaKing? Looking at how fat some of the diggers are, then I have a doubt. :) A platoon of Bantu tribesman all geared up might get in with a pinch
- but 27 fully geared diggers?

I'd like to see that!
RN.

Not RAN...

:)

Some of the Blackhawks during Interfet looked they'd used D9s to get the diggers inside of them...
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The infamous High Range (2x) and the Fiji helo incidents are the most notable, but I believe they are currently running 34x out of 39x originally purchased,
A Sqn, 5 Avn Regt is now flying/converting to MRH-90 so the only Black Hawk operators are B Sqn, 5 Avn Regt and 171 Sqn, 6 Avn Regt each with 10 airframes. Plus of course training at the School of Aviation, Oakey.

But in answer to the original question somewhere back in the thread; Army tends to issue only 10 trooplift helos to each squadron so when the full 40 MRH-90s are in service only 30 will be in the three squadrons. The other 10 will provide a balance for individual training at the School, ARDU, attrition reserve and deep level maintenance back with Australian Aerospace.

Since each MRH-90, even with the door gun configuration, has 16 crash seats compared to only 10 in the S-70A-9 you can lift a company group with less. 1 MRH-90 equals 1.6 Black Hawks for troop lift.
 

Navor86

Member
and with the 6 MRH from the Navy you could bring each Suadron to 12 Airframes wich would make more senes,seems like a good point to me.
 

Abraham Gubler

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and with the 6 MRH from the Navy you could bring each Suadron to 12 Airframes wich would make more senes,seems like a good point to me.
I don't think the Army would add the six ex Navy MRH-90s to the existing squadrons if they become available thanks to the FNACS program. The number of helicopters in each squadron is designed to match the lift requirement of an infantry company group. While the troop lift capability per squadron will grow from Black Hawk to MRH-90 so to is the size of the infantry company thanks to the Infantry 2012 program and all the new direct fire weapons being issued to the infantry company. They will probably just be used as part of the general pool to push down flight hours per airframe per year to increase platform service life.
 

PeterM

Active Member
If the PzH 2000 is selected by the Aust Army for their SPH requirement, is it worth considering the MONARC system for the Hobart Class?

This would seam to offer the ADF simplified ammunition and support.

from http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pzh2000/
A KMW PzH 2000 howitzer turret with a 155mm gun has been mounted on the deck of FGS Hamburg (F220) as a demonstration of the feasibility of the system for naval applications. The concept is called MONARC and requires a flexible elastic mounting. MONARC has a range of 22nm. Live fire trials were conducted in September 2003.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of using a 155mm system vs the existing 127mm guns?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
MONARC is dead, development dropped in favour of off-the-shelf 127mm Vulcano (and MONARC still had considerable problems when it was dropped).
 

PeterM

Active Member
MONARC is dead, development dropped in favour of off-the-shelf 127mm Vulcano (and MONARC still had considerable problems when it was dropped).
Aren't the British still trying to develop something along those lines for the Daring class? possibly using the Mk8 turret?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
and with the 6 MRH from the Navy you could bring each Suadron to 12 Airframes wich would make more senes,seems like a good point to me.
10 aircraft per squadron was adopted from the American TO&E for the helicopter companies, there being three companies in a battalion (our regiment), with two in HQ and one in maintenance.

Probably in the spirit of interoperability.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Aren't the British still trying to develop something along those lines for the Daring class? possibly using the Mk8 turret?
Not quite along those lines. MONARC was an attempt to fit the turret of the Pzh2000 SP gun to a ship. As I understand it, the difficulty of adapting the turret was eventually deemed to be too great to be worthwhile. What the UK is working on is an attempt to fit the ordnance of the AS90 SP gun into a 4.5" naval gun turret. The turret/ship interface is therefore not a problem, but there are other problems to solve, relating to ammunition handling & fitting the larger gun into the existing turret.
 
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