Armour/PT-90/ERA related questions

[OPSSG]

I've always considered the Centurion Tempest as a myth. Do you believe it actually exists? How could a tank unit effectively exist when they never go on the training range or somewhere else where they could be seen in public?

I understand why you think it is a myth.

According to Tim Huxley (at page 131) and I quote:

"In 1975, the SAF purchased 63 Centurion MBTs from India and a second batch from Israel in 1993-94 bringing the total to at least 80... [and] are known as Tempests... Apparently for fear of provoking controversy with Singapore's neigbours, Mindef has never admitted that the SAF operates MBTs."​

Note that Tim Huxley mentions specific countries where these alleged platforms have been used during training but I have deleted reference to specific countries (due to sensitivity issues). Please read Tim's book and his reference source at page 75-76 of “Singapore and the Army 2000 plan”, Military Technology, 7/1992 by Prasun K. Sengupta.

I offer no further comment.

 

[STURM]

Despite numerous reports over the years, regarding the Centurions and their presence at the training facility Taiwan, I have never seen a photo.
Prior to the 2A4s, only the AMX13s and the engineer variant of the M60 have been shown. Im sure they exist, but surely theres no reason to still keep mum about them.

 

[cm07]

OPSSG -> Tempests dont exist.

Please dont go off the original topic.

The purchase of the PT-91M is also the ongoing process for the modernisation and maturing of the armour forces in Malaysia. As it is for the SAF armour forces with the purchase of the Leo2.

In addition, the employment of MBTs of both Pendakar and Leo2SG is the obvious choice. What platforms to better compliment the Adnans and the Bionixes than modernised MBTs to provide further firepower,mobility and protection?

The purchase in numbers ( 48 and 102?) is also in line with the deployment numbers as required by the doctrine of both countries.(The word 'spares' is taking into the account that the tanks will not be employed on a day to day training basis. Obviously if they were declared warstocks, the meaning would turn provocative. Good relationships with our neighbours is a must.)

48 PT-91s in this case will cater to a tank battalion as part of an armoured Brigade in the MAF.

The Leo2 purchases, on the other hand, will cater to a tank platoon in every company of a SAR. Going by the numbers purchased, we can expect the these tanks to be sufficient in supporting 1 armoured brigade in each of the 3 combined armoured divisions.

 

[DavidDCM]

The Malaysian tank battalion is not part of a brigade, it's directly subordinated to the Army HQ.
The armoured component of the Adnan-brigade as of now is provided by a battalion of Sibmas AFSV-90.

 

[cm07]

This i do not know.

It was to my believe that the Malaysian Armoured Corps consisting of 5 battalions would operate as one large unit interlinking the various platforms

Apparently it is announced that the future armoured elements of the MAF will mainly operated under 3rd Division which is transforming into a combined arms division consisting of 1 armoured brigade, 1 mech and 1 motor brigade.

From this future plan -
armour brigade - 2 tanks Bn, 1 mech bn
mech brigade - 3 mech bn?
motor brigade - wheels lots of wheels.

Pretty much if you throw in another batch of MBTs that is yet to be bought, this should wholly account for the 5 current armour battalions in the future plan. Even if they are not fighting as 1 brigade(as i thought) armour will eventually be employed as the main strength of a division.

 

[eckherl]

does anybody know if this batch of Twardies have APU devices and are they equipped to handle MICLICK devices. Also does anyone know what type of sub caliber device for the main gun are they using.

 

[DavidDCM]

This i do not know.

It was to my believe that the Malaysian Armoured Corps consisting of 5 battalions would operate as one large unit interlinking the various platforms

Apparently it is announced that the future armoured elements of the MAF will mainly operated under 3rd Division which is transforming into a combined arms division consisting of 1 armoured brigade, 1 mech and 1 motor brigade.

From this future plan -
armour brigade - 2 tanks Bn, 1 mech bn
mech brigade - 3 mech bn?
motor brigade - wheels lots of wheels.

Pretty much if you throw in another batch of MBTs that is yet to be bought, this should wholly account for the 5 current armour battalions in the future plan. Even if they are not fighting as 1 brigade(as i thought) armour will eventually be employed as the main strength of a division.

Yes, five battalions (in Malaysia called regiment due to British army traditions). They are spread all over Malaysia and do not form a big coherent unit. Three of them belong to different divisions, one belongs to the 4th Mech Brigade and one directly to Army HQ.

4th Mech Bde belongs to the 3rd division, so this division indeed has two armour bn.

 

[STURM]

eckherl, of the 3 MBTs that were shortlisted and trialed in Malaysia, only the
T-90S and T-84 were fitted with an APU. Whether an APU was included in the modifications done to the PT-91 is unknown. Sorry, but what is a MICLICK device? Also, is the SAVAN 15 fitted with a auto tracker?

 

[eckherl]

eckherl, of the 3 MBTs that were shortlisted and trialed in Malaysia, only the
T-90S and T-84 were fitted with an APU. Whether an APU was included in the modifications done to the PT-91 is unknown. Sorry, but what is a MICLICK device? Also, is the SAVAN 15 fitted with a auto tracker?

Sorry, should of not used our field term for it. A MICLIK is a linear explosive charge device used for tactical mine clearing, the Polish model/nomenclacture is ZB-WLWD/7, and they can mount it on tanks. Savin 15 nor FCS is not fitted with a auto tracker but the ballistic computer can induce auto lead when lasing to a moving target, the gunner though will still have to keep his reticle center of visible mass by tracking using his cadillac controls.

 

[STURM]

I doubt if a MICLIK device was bought but who knows? A lot of of stuff regarding the PT-91M deal have not been reported. No results of the trials performed on the T-90S, PT-91 and T-84 were ever released. As far as I know, only the Vickers Mk3 performed live firings, back in 1995. And only with HESH rounds due to a lack of a suitable firing range. What I find strange is why
the Ukraniean bustle auto loader was not offered with the T-84 to the Malaysians, as it had already been developed prior to 2000. For the tank bridge, the Leguan was chosen. Though RUAG was selected to provide a tank simulator, Im sure if a contract was signed.

 

[Tavarisch]

I doubt if a MICLIK device was bought but who knows? A lot of of stuff regarding the PT-91M deal have not been reported. No results of the trials performed on the T-90S, PT-91 and T-84 were ever released. As far as I know, only the Vickers Mk3 performed live firings, back in 1995. And only with HESH rounds due to a lack of a suitable firing range. What I find strange is why
the Ukraniean bustle auto loader was not offered with the T-84 to the Malaysians, as it had already been developed prior to 2000. For the tank bridge, the Leguan was chosen. Though RUAG was selected to provide a tank simulator, Im sure if a contract was signed.

Probably because the Malaysians didn't ask for a bustle mounted auto-loader. I hear those things are optional...... (Or, again, I maybe wrong....)

 

[STURM]

Does anyone know what advantages the Thales Catherine thermal imager provides over the thermal imager paired with the Savan FCS?

 

[DavidDCM]

Umm... The Savan-15 has a Catherine TI from what I know. But Catherine is not a single model but a whole family of thermal imagers with several different versions. So it depends on which particular model you refer to.