Military weapons advancement

nevidimka

New Member
Hi, need some help, on some concept. Over the years military weapons have evolved in many ways. Often times it was developed or evolved based from experiences in war.

However I think there are also weapons systems that were developed against the army/air force/navy's input. Meaning that weapon designers evolving from 1 form of weaponry to another even though it goes against what the servicemen were comfortable with coz that is the way of combat of the future.

For instance I believe WW2 fighter pilots preferred guns to the idea of carrying missiles, but weapons designers developed them, and made them fight the new way. Am I right?

Can you guys list some of those examples?
 

nevidimka

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OK, since no 1 replied, let me add another example.

For instance, most pilots would say that there is no substittute to the human in the cockpit. But weapons development is going towards unmanned fighter planes for the future. So inevitably in the future, fighter planes may be unmanned to a large degree, removing the need for pilots.
 

Freeman

New Member
Here's the thing. You have operators who derive their perceptions from actual combat experience and then you have bureaucrats who derive their perceptions from big think tanks like the RAND Corporation. Strategic decisions such as new weapons platforms are generally shaped by the bureaucrats and thus the big think tanks whose ideas may work in theory but fall apart in practice. This is what lead the military to adopt the F-4 as a major multipurpose workhorse.

Fighter planes from WWII forward were getting faster and faster to the point where it was believed that dogfighting would become obsolete because the pilot could not handle the burdens placed upon him by the extreme speeds. It was thought that missiles would do the dogfighting because they could theoretically react more quickly and handle a higher G-load. Thus the F-4 was designed mainly as a missile deployment platform. It was optimized to provide high speed in exchange for high rate of change (turn circles, Ps, acceleration, etc.) as well as other important attributes such as pilot visibility. While the F-4 was lauded by analysts as an evolution in aircraft design, it was generally denounced by fighter pilots as a turkey.

Most would agree that the fighter pilots were right. The missiles employed on the aircraft (early iterations of the AIM-4 Falcon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, and AIM-7 Sparrow) did not perform up to their expectations (malfunctioning most of the time). A clever enemy could exploit the weaknesses of the Phantom to force a dogfight and when it did happen the enemy fighter had an advantage over the F-4. This resulted in unprecedented losses (4:1 US kill ratio compared to 10:1 plus in previous conflicts). The losses could have been much higher had it not been for the generally large gap in pilot skills.

As far as UAV's go, it's generally believed that they can replace some of the more dangerous jobs traditionally flown by a human (such as flying the "hunter" in the hunter-killer setup on a SEAD strike). There are several vulnerabilities that might make this impractical against an enemy of equal or near-equal capability such as vulnerability to ECM, latency between pilot and machine, and decreased pilot awareness. When you start talking about AI-controlled platforms now you're bringing in a plethora of problems (namely, the inherent inability of current AI to perform on a level even close to that of a human). Only combat against a truly capable foe will prove whether UAV's will live up to their expectations and I think most will agree that UAV's will never entirely replace platforms with a pilot in the seat.

Here's one for you to research: the abandonment of the M1 Garand in favor of the M14 and then the M14 to the M16; two very controversial decisions at the time. Come to think of it, nearly all evolutions in standard-issue kit have had some degree of antagonism between operator and bureaucrat (another one is longbow->crossbow). Only history can tell who was right (and sometimes they're both right).
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
@Freeman

There was a discussion on this topic a few weeks ago in the thread "Who is gonna make the 5-gen fighter first?" in relation to UCAVs. Please consider taking a look and doing some background reading before further comment to develop your ideas.

Even with present technology, it is not an either manned vs unmanned argument with these systems. Lethal unmanned systems are already deployed (but with some limitations) and many solutions providers are working to overcome each current limitation. :D

Further, human cognitive limitations have resulted in work on what is sometimes called augmented intelligence and again is a currently deployed technology. In certain cases, machines react faster than humans in certain threat scenarios. A simple dichotomy between the two (human pilots vs UCAVs) will not suffice.
 
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nevidimka

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Here's the thing. You have operators who derive their perceptions from actual combat experience and then you have bureaucrats who derive their perceptions from big think tanks like the RAND Corporation. Strategic decisions such as new weapons platforms are generally shaped by the bureaucrats and thus the big think tanks whose ideas may work in theory but fall apart in practice. This is what lead the military to adopt the F-4 as a major multipurpose workhorse.

Fighter planes from WWII forward were getting faster and faster to the point where it was believed that dogfighting would become obsolete because the pilot could not handle the burdens placed upon him by the extreme speeds. It was thought that missiles would do the dogfighting because they could theoretically react more quickly and handle a higher G-load. Thus the F-4 was designed mainly as a missile deployment platform. It was optimized to provide high speed in exchange for high rate of change (turn circles, Ps, acceleration, etc.) as well as other important attributes such as pilot visibility. While the F-4 was lauded by analysts as an evolution in aircraft design, it was generally denounced by fighter pilots as a turkey.

Most would agree that the fighter pilots were right. The missiles employed on the aircraft (early iterations of the AIM-4 Falcon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, and AIM-7 Sparrow) did not perform up to their expectations (malfunctioning most of the time). A clever enemy could exploit the weaknesses of the Phantom to force a dogfight and when it did happen the enemy fighter had an advantage over the F-4. This resulted in unprecedented losses (1:4 US kill ratio compared to 10:1 plus in previous conflicts). The losses could have been much higher had it not been for the generally large gap in pilot skills.

As far as UAV's go, it's generally believed that they can replace some of the more dangerous jobs traditionally flown by a human (such as flying the "hunter" in the hunter-killer setup on a SEAD strike). There are several vulnerabilities that might make this impractical against an enemy of equal or near-equal capability such as vulnerability to ECM, latency between pilot and machine, and decreased pilot awareness. When you start talking about AI-controlled platforms now you're bringing in a plethora of problems (namely, the inherent inability of current AI to perform on a level even close to that of a human). Only combat against a truly capable foe will prove whether UAV's will live up to their expectations and I think most will agree that UAV's will never entirely replace platforms with a pilot in the seat.

Here's one for you to research: the abandonment of the M1 Garand in favor of the M14 and then the M14 to the M16; two very controversial decisions at the time. Come to think of it, nearly all evolutions in standard-issue kit have had some degree of antagonism between operator and bureaucrat (another one is longbow->crossbow). Only history can tell who was right (and sometimes they're both right).
OK, I'll take a look on the M1 Garand. If you have any other divergences in military development in Naval or land warfare, I'd like to hear it.
 

Freeman

New Member
@Freeman

There was a discussion on this topic a few weeks ago in the thread "Who is gonna make the 5-gen fighter first?" in relation to UCAVs. Please consider taking a look and doing some background reading before further comment to develop your ideas.
Thanks for the link. I'll likely be making a post in that thread later today.

If you have any other divergences in military development in Naval or land warfare, I'd like to hear it.
Sure. Land: how about the adoption of the M4 Sherman tank during WWII? Naval: Sailing ships to ironclad. Big Guns to missile platforms.

Are you writing a paper?
 

nevidimka

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Thanks for the link. I'll likely be making a post in that thread later today.



Sure. Land: how about the adoption of the M4 Sherman tank during WWII? Naval: Sailing ships to ironclad. Big Guns to missile platforms.

Are you writing a paper?
Not really, just an interest to see where in weapons development, have there been a divergence in thinking.

What about the M4 Sherman tank? You seem to know a lot on very old weapons technology transitions.
 
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