Infantry Small Arms Calibre Mixing

[lobbie111]

Bit of a cary-over from the 5.56 replacment thread:

Since the 70's and 80's emphasis by western armies has to replace the 7.62 Nato with the 5.56 Nato round on all levels in the infantry squad/section, from DM rifles to Machine guns. Now because of combat experience many forces wanted longer range supporting arms like Machine Guns and DM rifles. But is it practical to mix the two? Can two calibre's co exist withing the infantry squad without causing major strain on an army?

This is where I see rifles like the SCAR and the Magpul Masada/ Bushmaster ACR Come into their own as you can switch back to your mates or your enemies calibre if neccesary. (I have heard of people having problems using pickup's magazines in Iraq and Afghanistan because they are simply not designed for the dirt.) The biggest question is, can current bullpups be converted to take advantage of this system?

 

[Waylander]

If your army is not able to support your infantry and troops with two different kinds of small arms ammo than you have much bigger problems than thinking about what kind of calibre would be good for you.

And it's not as if there aren't other things than small arms ammo that an infantry unit needs to be able to perform it's mission.

The logistic guys need to get handgrenades, 40mm, mines, claymores, water, food, AT-ammo, etc. to the combat units.
Handling two kinds of ammo shouldn't be a problem at all.
Heck, wars have been fought with many more than just 2 kinds of small arms ammo for decades if not centuries.

Besides that the armed forces need to procure 7,62mm ammo anyways as it is the primary ammo for many weapons carried by dozens of vehicles, be it as a self defense weapon for trucks or as a coax for AFVs.

 

[lobbie111]

If your army is not able to support your infantry and troops with two different kinds of small arms ammo than you have much bigger problems than thinking about what kind of calibre would be good for you.

And it's not as if there aren't other things than small arms ammo that an infantry unit needs to be able to perform it's mission.

The logistic guys need to get handgrenades, 40mm, mines, claymores, water, food, AT-ammo, etc. to the combat units.
Handling two kinds of ammo shouldn't be a problem at all.
Heck, wars have been fought with many more than just 2 kinds of small arms ammo for decades if not centuries.

Besides that the armed forces need to procure 7,62mm ammo anyways as it is the primary ammo for many weapons carried by dozens of vehicles, be it as a self defense weapon for trucks or as a coax for AFVs.

not just logistics units themselves, but the infantry squad, if you have a 7.62 DM rifle and you run out of ammo, you effectivly don't have a main weapon anymore, unless your gunner shoots 7.62...And sometimes you just can't get resupplied then and there.

 

[Waylander]

So what?
If you run out of handgrenades your don't have the anymore either.
If you run out of AT-ammo and AT-mines you don't have a weapon which is effetcive against enemy AFVs.

If you run out of linked 5,56mm or 7,62mm your support weapons are silent.
That's war.

The additional capabilities given to you by GPMGs and DMRs far outweight the more theoretical idea of running out of ammo and being able to give spare ammo to your comrades.

Give the MG gunner and the Designated Marksman a PDW and everything is ok.

 

[lobbie111]

So what?
If you run out of handgrenades your don't have the anymore either.
If you run out of AT-ammo and AT-mines you don't have a weapon which is effetcive against enemy AFVs.

If you run out of linked 5,56mm or 7,62mm your support weapons are silent.
That's war.

The additional capabilities given to you by GPMGs and DMRs far outweight the more theoretical idea of running out of ammo and being able to give spare ammo to your comrades.

Give the MG gunner and the Designated Marksman a PDW and everything is ok.

So you want to give the MG gunner and the Designated Marksmen who arguably (in the case of the designated marksman, its true in the case of the MG Gunner) carry the biggest load of all in the squad another weapon and spare ammo to carry?

Having no combat or military experience prohibits me from knowing what would happen in a real situation but if I was a soldier and I could only use my pistol because no-one else has my ammo, that would suck!

 

[Waylander]

The whole unit is carrying ammo for the squad GPMG.
It's not as if the two MG guys have to carry all their stuff by themselves.

And it is hard to imagine that the Designated Marksman is going to run out of ammo before the rest of the suqad is naked, too.
He is normally going to let loose alot less rounds than the rest of the unit.

So what do we have?
- A 2 men MG team with one of them carrying a normal or short AR and the other one the MG. Give the MG 1 a PDW and he has a usefull backup weapon if the shit hits the fan and the MG runs out of ammo.
- A designated marksman who is using other ammo than the rest of the unit but should be ok with what he can carry especially because he is not going to use up his ammo as fast as the normal AR carrying soldier.

The rest of the unit carries assalut rifles, some of them with UGLs, and some grenades.
Additional MG ammo, mines, 40mm, AT weapon + ammo is relatively equally carried be the whole group.

Putting the DM aside because of the reasons I mentioned before even using 5,56mm MGs only is not going to help alot.
If your MG runs out of ammo it is highly unlikely that the rest of the unit has alot of ammo to spare. And even then you don't have linked ammo so the MG is only another heavy AR because you wont get enough spare magazines from your comrades to make use of the automatic fire capabilities of the MG.

With a PDW the MG 1 is still able to defend himself with a reasonable usefull weapon.
If you are at this point one should have already thinked about retreat or about waiting for additional support (and probably die waiting...)

 

[lobbie111]

Would the MG have a pistol or just the PDW, its still a lot of weight to carry, standard load for minimi is 5 boxes inc. one on gun right? still a lot of weight.

 

[kato]

If you are at this point one should have already thinked about retreat or about waiting for additional support

Actually, if you are at that point, it's not that unlikely that there already are or soon will be "spare" rifles up for grabs.

 

[Waylander]

Actually, if you are at that point, it's not that unlikely that there already are or soon will be "spare" rifles up for grabs.

Jup, sure if the shit really hits the fan getting a spare rifle wom't be much of a problem...

 

[Waylander]

Would the MG have a pistol or just the PDW, its still a lot of weight to carry, standard load for minimi is 5 boxes inc. one on gun right? still a lot of weight.

Jup only the PDW.
There is no need for a pistol if one carries a PDW (Would say not even when one doesn't carry a PDW..)

And for sure a carrying ammo for your support weapons is heavy but that's life. And because of that one tries to diverse the weight by giving everybody some MG ammo to carry.

 

[lobbie111]

Oh and the point I was trying to make about the MG the M249 has the ability to use Standard M16 magazines. So if you are desperate you do have ammunition handy. I see what you mean about breaking point, I had just finished watching "American Soldiers: A Day in Iraq" where they were out of ammunition so they got some at the police station, and when at the climax at the movie they ran out of ammunition completly, and had to resort to close combat to survive...

 

[Waylander]

I thought they canned this capability of the SAW because it never worked as advertised.

But as I said even when you have the ability to use STAN mags with your LMG it doesn't help that much.
It is not as if it is very likely that the rest of your units has lots of spare mags to give when the LMGs run out of ammo.
The small bursts one is going to get out of these mags is going to be more of a drain on the low ammo reserve of the unit than anything else as the LMG is not going to be able to fire the same aimed single shots to save critical ammo.

In the end I have no problem giving a squad only ARs and LMGs in the same calibre, without any DMRs or GPMGs, if the situation requires it. But not because of the ammo but because the weapons might be better suited to the task at hand.
The capabilities a good DMR and GPMG bring to the table far outweight the strain of different kinds of ammo.

So if you are desperate you do have ammunition handy.

A PDW is also going to give the MG 1 a backup which might be much more usefull than the ability to spit out some spare STAN mags.

 

[Chino]

FACT: US is already using a small arms mix that includes:
- linked 7.62
- unlinked 7.62
- linked 5.56
- unlinked 5.56
- 9mm

Do they have problems with this logistically in the combat ...?

 

[Marc 1]

I don't see the problem. For many years during and after the Vietnam war the Australian army Infantry used SLR's, M16's and either the M60 or Mag58. Add a pistol or two and you have 4 types of small arms ball ammunition to manage.

 

[metalkat 77]

Reading about history for example in the internal conflicts which my country have been when in a long conflict the resources are extendet till the limit apear a situation in wich soldiers are packed with all kind of weapons including the calibers, now with war in a far away distance, in where the smart boms is the rule and combats in the citty are the new face of war rerquieres a only weapon and single caliber with the capability to give a response at your necesities a weapon to let the soldiers move freely for the hostiul embioroment and avoit and accident between their own soldiers but if your soldiers figth in diferents embiroments a posible mixing if your economy lets you is posible if not try a standard caliber such in your rifles and hand guns and all this talking about the main weapons in an infantry soldier.