Armour/PT-90/ERA related questions

[STURM]

Hello,

I have several armour/PT-90/ERA related questions that I hope armour enthusiasts will be able to help me with. Here goes...

1. Does the PT-90 have the same baseline armour protection as a late
model T-72?

2. Can the Konstrukta 2A46MS gun and Savan FCS, which is fitted to the
Malaysian PT-91M, fire the Refleks missile? Or are there integration
issues here?

3. Have there been any published reports about the effectiveness of ERAWA 2
against new generation KE penetrators? Overall, how does ERAWA 2
compare to Kontskt 5?

4. Without ERA, will the side and rear turret armour of tanks like the T-90,
T-72 and PT-91 protect against 30/20mm ammo?

Thank you.

 

[DavidDCM]

The T-72B is the latest and best protected T-72 version. The PT-91 is a modernization of the T-72M1 (export variant of T-72A), which is an older version. Thus, the PT-91's passive armor is inferior to a T-72B.

The Malaysians did not buy the Refleks, so I suspect that the ability to fire it was not integrated. In theory I guess it could be done.

I'm not sure if the ERAWA-2 was even designed to counter KE-threats. It's possibly just a tandem shaped-charge breaker with no big effect on KE. But I don't know for sure.

I don't know about the rear protection.

 

[Feanor]

The latest T-72 is the T-72B2. Although it features the same passive protection, it carries Relikt ERA.

Here's what I found on the ERAWA-1/2.

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3862.html

 

[eckherl]

The T-72B is the latest and best protected T-72 version. The PT-91 is a modernization of the T-72M1 (export variant of T-72A), which is an older version. Thus, the PT-91's passive armor is inferior to a T-72B.

The Malaysians did not buy the Refleks, so I suspect that the ability to fire it was not integrated. In theory I guess it could be done.

I'm not sure if the ERAWA-2 was even designed to counter KE-threats. It's possibly just a tandem shaped-charge breaker with no big effect on KE. But I don't know for sure.

I don't know about the rear protection.

25 and 30mm auto cannons with proper projectiles will penetrate the rear and side rears of tanks, we were dusting tanks during the Gulf War at the frontal quadrants using 25mm DU projectiles.

 

[cm07]

What is the likelihood of a 84mm M3 warhead being able to penetrate the PT-91M in the frontal Arc?

Or the ERAWA faced off against Top attack ATGMS like the MBT LAW / BILL 2?

 

[STURM]

The problem here is that on the PT-91 and other tanks, not just the hatches but other top parts of the turret are not protected by ERA.

I would be really interested to find out if its possible, using top attack systems like Spike, Bill and Javelin, to aim for specific areas like hatches? Apart from hatches, the engine grills, being unprotected, would also be ideal targets for top attack missiles, assuming you could aim for specific areas.

I've also find it interesting that Russian APS's like Shotra or Arena haven't been exported much. Apart from the price tag, this could be for technical issues also. I've read that Shotra is extrenely power hungry.

 

[STURM]

The problem here is that on the PT-91 and other tanks, not just the hatches but other top parts of the turret are not protected by ERA.

I would be really interested to find out if its possible, using top attack systems like Spike, Bill and Javelin, to aim for specific areas like hatches? Apart from hatches, the engine grills, being unprotected, would also be ideal targets for top attack missiles, assuming you could aim for specific areas.

I've also find it interesting that Russian APS's like Shotra or Arena haven't been exported much. Apart from the price tag, this could be for technical issues also. I've read that Shotra is extrenely power hungry.

 

[DavidDCM]

What is the likelihood of a 84mm M3 warhead being able to penetrate the PT-91M in the frontal Arc?

Old Carl Gustav single warhead? Extremely unlikely as basically every inch of the PT-91M front is covered by ERAWA tiles. No chance for such a small diameter shaped charge.

Or the ERAWA faced off against Top attack ATGMS like the MBT LAW / BILL 2?

Depends on whether the incoming penetrator will hit a tile. If it hits a tile, I guess ERAWA will defeat it, as those top-attack penetrators are relatively small, and afaik single, warheads.

 

[eckherl]

The problem here is that on the PT-91 and other tanks, not just the hatches but other top parts of the turret are not protected by ERA.

I would be really interested to find out if its possible, using top attack systems like Spike, Bill and Javelin, to aim for specific areas like hatches? Apart from hatches, the engine grills, being unprotected, would also be ideal targets for top attack missiles, assuming you could aim for specific areas.

I've also find it interesting that Russian APS's like Shotra or Arena haven't been exported much. Apart from the price tag, this could be for technical issues also. I've read that Shotra is extrenely power hungry.

You do realize that these missiles carry tandem projectiles and are designed specifically to deal with newer generation ERA. And no you cannot aim at specific parts of the tank with these systems.

 

[STURM]

So would it be right to say that even the latest versions of the Challenger, Abrams and Lerclec can be penetrated by top attack missiles with tandem warheads and that only an APS would make a difference?

It was not reported if the Malaysians were offered an APS to go with the
PT-91M. I suspect that funds would have been the main problem here.
Though live trials were done with the Savan 15 on a prototype PT-91 in 2001 in Poland, I'm not aware of any tests done by the Malaysians on ERAWA 2.

 

[eckherl]

So would it be right to say that even the latest versions of the Challenger, Abrams and Lerclec can be penetrated by top attack missiles with tandem warheads and that only an APS would make a difference?

It was not reported if the Malaysians were offered an APS to go with the
PT-91M. I suspect that funds would have been the main problem here.
Though live trials were done with the Savan 15 on a prototype PT-91 in 2001 in Poland, I'm not aware of any tests done by the Malaysians on ERAWA 2.

You are going to find that all current MBTs have weak top armor when it comes to dealing with modern top attack tandem projectiles. ERA benefits to the turret tops will help assist when dealing with those pesky special purpose artillery rounds. There is a reason why alot of countries have been reluctant to field APS systems be it soft or hard kill, they still need to be perfected for the task that they are intended to perform, this includes systems like Trophy and Iron Fist.

 

[nevidimka]

You are going to find that all current MBTs have weak top armor when it comes to dealing with modern top attack tandem projectiles. ERA benefits to the turret tops will help assist when dealing with those pesky special purpose artillery rounds. There is a reason why alot of countries have been reluctant to field APS systems be it soft or hard kill, they still need to be perfected for the task that they are intended to perform, this includes systems like Trophy and Iron Fist.

I think the only tank with a strong armour on top is the Black Eagle, but that is not in production.

 

[Tavarisch]

I think the only tank with a strong armour on top is the Black Eagle, but that is not in production.

You are obsessed with the 640 aren't you?

The only reason the BE has strong (in relative terms) top armor is because of the super-duper-crazy-gila (Exaggerating here ) ERA they're gonna put on it. Even then, ERA is one-shot use. After it's been activated, it's gonna be just like applique armor.

However, the 640 does have it's perks. A

I'd sure like to have the plans for it.

PS : What does IIRC mean, it's been bugging me since day one and I was a bit too chicken to ask at first.

 

[Waylander]

If I Remember Correctly.

 

[nevidimka]

You are obsessed with the 640 aren't you?

The only reason the BE has strong (in relative terms) top armor is because of the super-duper-crazy-gila (Exaggerating here ) ERA they're gonna put on it. Even then, ERA is one-shot use. After it's been activated, it's gonna be just like applique armor.

However, the 640 does have it's perks. A

I'd sure like to have the plans for it.

PS : What does IIRC mean, it's been bugging me since day one and I was a bit too chicken to ask at first.

IIRC = Intelligent IRC ( the chatting software)......j/k. its what he said above.

No, the Black Eagle's top armour was increased after the bad experiences that Russia encountered in Chechnya. You can see the hardened armour on top of the turret. They are not ERA's.

 

[STURM]

Looking forward to hearing opinions from eckherl and DavidDCM on this, because you guys seem to be very knowledgable on MBTs. No offense to everyone else, I appreciate all feedback received.

To increase protection levels against RPGs and 20mm/30mm, would it make any sense to install bar armour on the rear turret and rear of the PT-91?
I realise this will be difficult because of the storage rack behind the turret and fuel barrels behind the engine. I'm sure with custom made bar armour, a way could be found around this. It might entail redesigning the storage rack and installing the bar armour in front off the duel barrels, fixed to the hull.
Or perhaps installing applique armour on the areas mentioned, and accepting the weight penalties?

Future upgrades for the PT-91. Perhaps installing an OWS?

 

[DavidDCM]

Those bars (slat armor) will give you a chance only against RPGs and wont have any effect on 25/30 mm rounds.
That is why you should always take care that the enemy's big guns are in front of you

 

[Tavarisch]

I have an idea! We put one slat layer over two layers of ERA bricks!

That would definitely counter any of those pesky Tandem Warheads.

But, the weight of the tank........

 

[Feanor]

I have an idea! We put one slat layer over two layers of ERA bricks!

That would definitely counter any of those pesky Tandem Warheads.

But, the weight of the tank........

I would think the ERA would tear off the slat if it detonated.

 

[Tavarisch]

I would think the ERA would tear off the slat if it detonated.

Never said it would work properly. Anyway, it would be too impractical.

Slat should be used around the engine compartment though.