The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

A.Mookerjee

Banned Member
The Queen Elizabeth Class of Aircraft Carrier.

Can anyone inform me about the Queen Elizabeth Class of Aircraft Carrier? Please do shed some light. I know that the Thales company has been commissioned to build the series of two Aircraft Carriers.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Can anyone inform me about the Queen Elizabeth Class of Aircraft Carrier? Please do shed some light. I know that the Thales company has been commissioned to build the series of two Aircraft Carriers.
Thales helped design them, they are being built by BVT and other shipyards in the UK that are subcontracting to BVT. They will be built in a number of blocks at multiple shipyards before being assembled at Rosyth dockyard.

What else would you like to know about the ships?
 

A.Mookerjee

Banned Member
Thales helped design them, they are being built by BVT and other shipyards in the UK that are subcontracting to BVT. They will be built in a number of blocks at multiple shipyards before being assembled at Rosyth dockyard.

What else would you like to know about the ships?
Please tell me everything that you know about the project.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Please tell me everything that you know about the project.
For the official information go here

Other then that, google "queen elizabeth class carriers" and have a look at the links on the first page of results.

I can only point you to those pages, though other people on the board might know more.
 

citizen578

New Member
Mookerjee, you'd benefit far more from a google search than having it explained to you by people on this forum. There's a phenomenal wealth of info out there!

If just general trivia is what you're after, YouTube has a couple of videos to raise eyebrows over...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARcPnLrVgqE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARcPnLrVgqE[/ame]

A bit of recent news concerning the carriers (see page 4):
http://content.yudu.com/A11vkl/NavyNewsFeb09/

Seems the RN have developed a new rolling-landing system for new generation stovl aircraft, so as they can land with significant payloads, without the need for arrestor gear.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
True, true, even including the Lafayettes it's a fair way behind. Where numbers are close, the size & capability of the average ship in each category is less.
Next decade? Depends. If the Type 23 aren't upgraded across the board (Artisan + CAMM at least), they'll not be favourably comparable to a FREMM ASW; the Type 22, for the RN, fill much the same role nowadays as the Lafayette for the MN. In Ocean and Overseas Patrol, the RN is outnumbered by the specialized units of half of all European Navies anyway. In amphibious ships, the MN is going for a unitary class with a throwweight of over 80kt - the RN/RFA amphibious fleet, even if more numerous, brings in only around 100 kt either, and at least 3/4th of that is in "second-line" ships with minimal actual assault capabilities.
Where the RN in the next decade will excel is AAW, carriers and SSNs - with two of those three being fields where the MN is traditionally weak.
 

Jon K

New Member
Where the RN in the next decade will excel is AAW, carriers and SSNs - with two of those three being fields where the MN is traditionally weak.
RN has currently zero carriers and is not likely to have a single operational carriers before 2020. (Even if CVF's will be in service the JSF's will not be in true operational service before 2020). MN will at least have one operational carrier with actual aircraft taking off and landing on it.

RN's SSN force by the end of next decade will consist of four Astute-class SSN's and perhaps some Trafalgars, while MN will likely have six Barracuda-class SSN's. Whether or not Astute is better than Barracuda depends on whether one is a spokesperson for MN or RN.

In the field of AAW, RN will have 4-6 Type 45's with a total of 192-288 ASTER cells. MN will most likely have 2 Suffrens (48 cells) and 8 FREMMS's (with 32 cells each), a total of 352 cells. One must grant that unless FREDA version materializes, the Type 45's are superior to FREMM's in sensors.

In field of land attack the MN will be superior in sense that it will have more launch platforms for cruise missiles with both FREMM's and Barracudas being suitable for role.

(The portrayal above is probably realistic for RN but perhaps too optimistic for MN)
 

citizen578

New Member
RN has currently zero carriers and is not likely to have a single operational carriers before 2020. (Even if CVF's will be in service the JSF's will not be in true operational service before 2020). MN will at least have one operational carrier with actual aircraft taking off and landing on it.

RN's SSN force by the end of next decade will consist of four Astute-class SSN's and perhaps some Trafalgars, while MN will likely have six Barracuda-class SSN's. Whether or not Astute is better than Barracuda depends on whether one is a spokesperson for MN or RN.

In the field of AAW, RN will have 4-6 Type 45's with a total of 192-288 ASTER cells. MN will most likely have 2 Suffrens (48 cells) and 8 FREMMS's (with 32 cells each), a total of 352 cells. One must grant that unless FREDA version materializes, the Type 45's are superior to FREMM's in sensors.

In field of land attack the MN will be superior in sense that it will have more launch platforms for cruise missiles with both FREMM's and Barracudas being suitable for role.

(The portrayal above is probably realistic for RN but perhaps too optimistic for MN)

errr what?

The RN currently has 3 carriers, one in reserve (and unlikely ever to sail anywhere except a scrapheap) and two operational.

Evidence of your submarine forecast?

Evidence of 4-6 T45s?
 

kev 99

Member
The first Barracuda class won't be delivered until 2016 (baring delays) the last won't be delivered until 2026.

The Government has already made statements that it intends to build 7 Astute's, it hasn't ordered them all yet but if it doesn't it means major problems for the Vanguard replacements, given this its likely that the RN will have 5 by then.
 
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Grim901

New Member
RN has currently zero carriers and is not likely to have a single operational carriers before 2020. (Even if CVF's will be in service the JSF's will not be in true operational service before 2020). MN will at least have one operational carrier with actual aircraft taking off and landing on it.

RN's SSN force by the end of next decade will consist of four Astute-class SSN's and perhaps some Trafalgars, while MN will likely have six Barracuda-class SSN's. Whether or not Astute is better than Barracuda depends on whether one is a spokesperson for MN or RN.

In the field of AAW, RN will have 4-6 Type 45's with a total of 192-288 ASTER cells. MN will most likely have 2 Suffrens (48 cells) and 8 FREMMS's (with 32 cells each), a total of 352 cells. One must grant that unless FREDA version materializes, the Type 45's are superior to FREMM's in sensors.

In field of land attack the MN will be superior in sense that it will have more launch platforms for cruise missiles with both FREMM's and Barracudas being suitable for role.

(The portrayal above is probably realistic for RN but perhaps too optimistic for MN)
I think you might have forgotten the 2 carriers currently in operation with a (for now) operational Harrier force. And the In service date of BOTH CVFs is still before 2020. First deliveries of JSF are 2015 and full scale deliveries by 2017. I think it's safe to say the RN does have a carrier force.

And as Kev said, 7 Astutes are still planned (reaffirmed last month) and all 6 Type 45's are now under construction/afloat. So all in all what you said was wrong.

As for the number of VLS cells on the AAWs, as you said, the Type 45 is more sophisticated, so the chances are that less cells will be needed.

Finally, by 2020 the first FSCs (C2 is first I think) should be under construction, which will have a land attack capability (not sure exactly what yet though) so you could be wrong there too.
 

Jon K

New Member
I think you might have forgotten the 2 carriers currently in operation with a (for now) operational Harrier force. And the In service date of BOTH CVFs is still before 2020. First deliveries of JSF are 2015 and full scale deliveries by 2017. I think it's safe to say the RN does have a carrier force.
I was provocational on purpose and you're right about two remaining carriers. However, the Harrier force is unable to provide strike wing even for exercises and anyway the RAF Harriers are quite limited aircraft.

Current JCA (JSF) in-service date is 2018, and considering the progress rate of JSF it's very optimistic so perhaps, by luck, RN will have operational (ie. trained etc.) strike wing by 2020. Considering the schedules for defense programs during last 64 years probably not. It's also not sure if RAF Harriers will be kept in service until JSF's arrive in numbers.

As for carriers, HMS Illustrious has planned decommissioning date of 2015 and HMS Ark Royal the decommissioning date of 2012. There has been no news about SLEP, so as my layman's five euro cents go for retainment of HMS Illustrious as training carrier until new ones become available.

For CV(F)'s, the current commissioning dates are currently 2016 and 2018. As the projects have their inevitable British delays I'm fairly certain that neither will be truly operational before 2020.

French CVN De Gaulle perhaps isn't the best carrier in the world and Rafale may have it's problems but the carrier is there sailing and has real operational aircraft flying from her.

And as Kev said, 7 Astutes are still planned (reaffirmed last month) and all 6 Type 45's are now under construction/afloat. So all in all what you said was wrong.
For 4-6 I just nodded to rumours of Saudi Type 45 purchase. It's probably more certain that there will be six Type 45's in RN service. As for Astutes, the fact that last ones are reaffirmed is not a sign that they will be actually built. Maybe accelerated future SSBN production instead?

As for the number of VLS cells on the AAWs, as you said, the Type 45 is more sophisticated, so the chances are that less cells will be needed.

Finally, by 2020 the first FSCs (C2 is first I think) should be under construction, which will have a land attack capability (not sure exactly what yet though) so you could be wrong there too.
Might be, but considering that Type 45 is entering service this year and the project was started in 1999 with significant studies already made for the abortive Horizon project I think there's very small chance of FSC's being operational, unless it's sort of an OPV.

As for Horizon vs. Type 45 they should be fairly even matched, but FREDA, if it materializes, will be probably equal to Type 45 in many ways thanks to improved technology. Even standard FREMM's should be able to at least support task force air defense with their ASTER's, with SYLVER-70 able to fire ASTER-30 as well if necessary.

But anyway, I'm fairly certain that by 2020 RN and MN are fairly even matched with MN having a slight edge in most capabilities, perhaps SSN's excluded (I made a mistake with Barracuda schedule).
 

kev 99

Member
The carriers decom dates will be put back same as those of the T22 and T23.

The rumour of T45 sales to Saudi is 2 years old and has gone nowhere.

T45 has a greater range than Horizon with Sampson supposedly superior to Empar.

FREDA will have a displacement of nearly 2000 tonnes less than a T45, carry 16 vls less and won't have space for an additional 16 like a T45 has, and you think it will be better?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Simply put, the Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales will be the largest warships ever built for the Royal Navy. While neither will have arrestor gear or catapults, their French cousin will, and at a much later time they might too.

The aircraft of choice to operate with these ships will be the F-35B Lightning IIs. The Lightning IIs should be joining the fleet when the ships join. While there have been discussions about cutting the number of new F-35Bs to be ordered, I have yet to hear a of a total cut. It appears enough of the F-35Bs will be acquired to operate off these ships.

There will be some construction in Portsmouth to home port these ships better, along with dredging of the channel. While they may not be as large as a Nimitz/Ford class carrier, these ships will be welcomed as their equals.
 

Grim901

New Member
I was provocational on purpose and you're right about two remaining carriers. However, the Harrier force is unable to provide strike wing even for exercises and anyway the RAF Harriers are quite limited aircraft.

Current JCA (JSF) in-service date is 2018, and considering the progress rate of JSF it's very optimistic so perhaps, by luck, RN will have operational (ie. trained etc.) strike wing by 2020. Considering the schedules for defense programs during last 64 years probably not. It's also not sure if RAF Harriers will be kept in service until JSF's arrive in numbers.

As for carriers, HMS Illustrious has planned decommissioning date of 2015 and HMS Ark Royal the decommissioning date of 2012. There has been no news about SLEP, so as my layman's five euro cents go for retainment of HMS Illustrious as training carrier until new ones become available.

For CV(F)'s, the current commissioning dates are currently 2016 and 2018. As the projects have their inevitable British delays I'm fairly certain that neither will be truly operational before 2020.

French CVN De Gaulle perhaps isn't the best carrier in the world and Rafale may have it's problems but the carrier is there sailing and has real operational aircraft flying from her.



For 4-6 I just nodded to rumours of Saudi Type 45 purchase. It's probably more certain that there will be six Type 45's in RN service. As for Astutes, the fact that last ones are reaffirmed is not a sign that they will be actually built. Maybe accelerated future SSBN production instead?



Might be, but considering that Type 45 is entering service this year and the project was started in 1999 with significant studies already made for the abortive Horizon project I think there's very small chance of FSC's being operational, unless it's sort of an OPV.

As for Horizon vs. Type 45 they should be fairly even matched, but FREDA, if it materializes, will be probably equal to Type 45 in many ways thanks to improved technology. Even standard FREMM's should be able to at least support task force air defense with their ASTER's, with SYLVER-70 able to fire ASTER-30 as well if necessary.

But anyway, I'm fairly certain that by 2020 RN and MN are fairly even matched with MN having a slight edge in most capabilities, perhaps SSN's excluded (I made a mistake with Barracuda schedule).
The Harrier force is still capable of operating a strike wing from the current carriers, it just isn't done as a matter of routine, the are embarked as necessary, but I do agree on their limitations.

As for JSF, I read that our first deliveries were slotted into the timetable beginning 2015 not 2018, with full scale deliveries by 2017, having given up an earlier slot. That means that training for pilots can begin in 2015 and have enough aircraft for a strike wing by 2018.

As for the current carriers, as Kev said, their OSDs have been pushed back to match the new delivery schedules of the CVFs.

The CVF's may well be a little late, but the recent pushing back of the in service dates might make up for it. The in service dates were 2015 and 2017 until recently, the new ones may prove more realistic.

Again, like Kev said, the possible Type 45 sale rumour is now very old and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Royal Navy would not settle for 4 Type 45's not matter what.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that there is a higher possibility of Astutes being cancelled since no Barracudas have even started being built. And the Royal Navy and Governments reviews have both made clear how essential the number of SSNs are. I think currently 6 are needed operational at all times, so at least one more is needed to ensure this. SSBN production won't need to start before 2020 as first replacements aren't needed before 2023.

And the FSC programme is being accelerated now, and at least the C2's will be needed by 2023 at the latest, and the Type 45 is much more capable than a Horizon currently and has plenty of room for upgrades.
 

Grim901

New Member
Simply put, the Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales will be the largest warships ever built for the Royal Navy. While neither will have arrestor gear or catapults, their French cousin will, and at a much later time they might too.

The aircraft of choice to operate with these ships will be the F-35B Lightning IIs. The Lightning IIs should be joining the fleet when the ships join. While there have been discussions about cutting the number of new F-35Bs to be ordered, I have yet to hear a of a total cut. It appears enough of the F-35Bs will be acquired to operate off these ships.

There will be some construction in Portsmouth to home port these ships better, along with dredging of the channel. While they may not be as large as a Nimitz/Ford class carrier, these ships will be welcomed as their equals.
In regards to the bit i've put in bold; how big is the air group on a Ford class carrier, I don't recall seeing numbers for it. I'm sure I saw that a Nimitz only had an air group of about 50 aircraft and was wondering why and extra 40,000 tonnes were needed compared to a CVF with an air group of 40?

But yes, they will be very capable ships, with no real rivals in the near future outside of the USA. I believe the decision on even building the French PA2 has been deferred to at least 2014.
 

ASFC

New Member
The RN is getting 6 T45s. The (rumoured) Saudi deal was to sell 7&8 so that the Govt would not have to buy them, but still leave Govan/Portsmouth with work.
 

battlensign

New Member
Next decade? Depends. If the Type 23 aren't upgraded across the board (Artisan + CAMM at least), they'll not be favourably comparable to a FREMM ASW; the Type 22, for the RN, fill much the same role nowadays as the Lafayette for the MN. In Ocean and Overseas Patrol, the RN is outnumbered by the specialized units of half of all European Navies anyway. In amphibious ships, the MN is going for a unitary class with a throwweight of over 80kt - the RN/RFA amphibious fleet, even if more numerous, brings in only around 100 kt either, and at least 3/4th of that is in "second-line" ships with minimal actual assault capabilities.
Where the RN in the next decade will excel is AAW, carriers and SSNs - with two of those three being fields where the MN is traditionally weak.
Um....? HMS Ocean and the LPDs are collectively 58kt without the 4 Bay-class which adds 64k tons and the Point-class follow-up RORO vessels with another 138k tons.

Brett.
 
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