The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

A

ASFC

New Member
I think the timeline this study is looking at, you will be seeing the Albions going through their mid-life update and the Ocean being replaced by these LHDs. Its nothing radical I would have thought, its just saying we need two LHDs raher than one LPH (Ocean) and a 'borrowed' Invincible Class operating as an LPH (normally the Ark Royal?) for our Amphibious groups. Obviously by then it would be a waste of resources to use a CVF as a secondary LPH........well you would have thought so anyway!

On the BAE/GD topic, the only articles I can find through a quick google search: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5553/is_200310/ai_n21924357 dates from 6 years ago and talks of the deal having been shelved. I presume therefore that 'rumours' of a merger is an ongoing topic in the Defence Industry that have just never come to fruition.
 
Systems Adict

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
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ASFC said:
On the BAE/GD topic, the only articles I can find through a quick google search: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5553/is_200310/ai_n21924357 dates from 6 years ago and talks of the deal having been shelved. I presume therefore that 'rumours' of a merger is an ongoing topic in the Defence Industry that have just never come to fruition.
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...I'm inclined to agree.

BAE have been discussing mergers with US companies since 1999. Most have been mentioned in dispatches, including Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, GD & GE.

This "posturing" has been beneficial as it help shareholders, the city & the UK Govt / Mod sit up & "Focus" on the company. It allows discussions to be directed down particular points of conversation, so that it's made clear what could happen if BAE sold out to a US company.

However, I have a feeling that this isn't/ wouldn't be a sell out to the US, but may be yet another in-road into the US DoD cash-flow mechanism, by them taking over a US owned business, the same way they did with United Defence, back in 2005.

In the current, slightly unstable monetary market, it could actually be a good thing, as it will help bouy up a US company, keeping jobs in the US, while allowing BAE to spend some of their hard-earned investment funds into yet another gold egg laying goose !

Additionally, it hasn't hurt them over the last 10 years, but brought the stocks and shares upto (& probably beyond), pre BAE / GEC merger prices, well that is till the world fell out of backside of this money / loan crisis


But that's just my opinion (not based on any fact other than my own understanding)


SA :D
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Having a US Company also makes them compliant and better placed to deal with any technologies that may be ITARs restricted.
 
harryriedl

harryriedl

Active Member
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New CVF contracts Radar is unsurprisingly S1850M
United Kingdom selects Thales’s S1850M radar for new aircraft carriers



14:31 GMT, February 11, 2009 Thales Nederland has formalised a contract with BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies Limited for two S1850M Long Range Volume Search Radars to be installed on the new aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy. The carriers are being built by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance comprising the UK Ministry of Defence, BVT Surface Fleet, Babcock Marine, BAE Systems and Thales.

The first radar system is scheduled to be delivered during 2011 and the second radar system in 2013. The scope includes minor enhancements to the earlier Type 45 design to meet the specific needs of aircraft carrier operation.

Additional information:

The S1850M surveillance radar is based on Thales's SMART-L radar and was previously delivered to the Type 45 vessels for the UK Royal Navy and the Horizon class vessels of the French and Italian Navies, in a collaboration between BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies Limited and Thales Nederland. The system is capable of 3D long range automatic detection, track initiation and tracking of air targets. Its performance has been demonstrated in many tests and the system has proven to be capable of detecting stealth targets in high clutter environments.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/5486/
 
G

Grim901

New Member
harryriedl said:
New CVF contracts Radar is unsurprisingly S1850M
United Kingdom selects Thales’s S1850M radar for new aircraft carriers



14:31 GMT, February 11, 2009 Thales Nederland has formalised a contract with BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies Limited for two S1850M Long Range Volume Search Radars to be installed on the new aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy. The carriers are being built by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance comprising the UK Ministry of Defence, BVT Surface Fleet, Babcock Marine, BAE Systems and Thales.

The first radar system is scheduled to be delivered during 2011 and the second radar system in 2013. The scope includes minor enhancements to the earlier Type 45 design to meet the specific needs of aircraft carrier operation.

Additional information:

The S1850M surveillance radar is based on Thales's SMART-L radar and was previously delivered to the Type 45 vessels for the UK Royal Navy and the Horizon class vessels of the French and Italian Navies, in a collaboration between BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies Limited and Thales Nederland. The system is capable of 3D long range automatic detection, track initiation and tracking of air targets. Its performance has been demonstrated in many tests and the system has proven to be capable of detecting stealth targets in high clutter environments.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/5486/
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At least that means they aren't seriously considering cancelling the Prince of Wales like i'd heard.
 
G

Grim901

New Member
Padfoot said:
:)


Won't happen.


One carrier is a waste of money, IMO.
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Yeh but there are a lot of things we thought the government would never be stupid enough to sacrifice in the armed forces, now our Navy is smaller than the French's for 300 years.

It would be short sighted though, especially since this funding crisis will eventually end.
 
harryriedl

harryriedl

Active Member
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Grim901 said:
Yeh but there are a lot of things we thought the government would never be stupid enough to sacrifice in the armed forces, now our Navy is smaller than the French's for 300 years.

It would be short sighted though, especially since this funding crisis will eventually end.
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everything has been ordered in 2s and the all the building's in key constituencies it won't happen and its creating huge amount of jobs
 
Systems Adict

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
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harryriedl said:
everything has been ordered in 2s and the all the building's in key constituencies it won't happen and its creating huge amount of jobs
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110% agree !

Another reason for the choice of radar is continuity of fleet spares.

It ACTUALLY means that someone within the DPA / DE & S has sat down & used COMMON SENSE, by buying the same kit for the carriers as T45 uses.

Then again, it might have been suggested by BAE & the MoD has just agreed !

SA
:p:
 
P

Padfoot

New Member
Grim901 said:
Yeh but there are a lot of things we thought the government would never be stupid enough to sacrifice in the armed forces, now our Navy is smaller than the French's for 300 years.

It would be short sighted though, especially since this funding crisis will eventually end.
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No it isn't.

You shouldn't believe all that nonsense you read in the British tabloids.

The French are getting only 2 Horizon class destroyers. ONLY 2! Imagine if the RN was getting 2 Type 45s.

They have 2 Cassard class which are due to leave service next year.

They have 7 30 year old Georges Leygues class frigates.

They have a couple of 40 Tourville class frigates.

They have 6 light 2000t "surveillance frigates" . They class these as escorts because they're armed with 2 Exocet MM38 missiles each.

5 La Fayette class frigates.

So really they have 14 escorts/surveillance frigates that are comparable to RN escorts. But most of their ships are not blue water in any sense of the word.

The RN is easily Europe's number 1 navy, and by a comfortable margin, and it will only strengthen that position over the next decade.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
I thought that was supposed to be 2 x Horizon, 11 x FREMM, & 5 x Lafayette (until the Lafayettes retire, with a bit of luck to be replaced), with the Cassards, etc. being replaced by FREMMs.
 
P

Padfoot

New Member
kato said:
Umm, no, they specifically don't. France is planning with 18 escorts - 2 Horizon, 11 FREMM, 5 Cassard.

Only if FSC gets off the ground, and sometime soon...
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I was specifically talking about the morons in the British media, Kato.

As for FSC, there's plenty of time yet. The four remaining Type 22s are due to remain in service until at least 2019, while the last Type 23 is not projected to be decommissioned until 2030/ish. So the RN will have 20+ escorts for the foreseeable future.


And a Charles de Gaulle, two Horizon, 11 FREMM and 6 of the Barracuda class attack subs are along way behind the RN of the next decade and beyond, IMO.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Padfoot said:
The French are getting only 2 Horizon class destroyers.
They have 2 Cassard class which are due to leave service next year.
They have 7 30 year old Georges Leygues class frigates.
They have a couple of 40 Tourville class frigates.

They have 6 light 2000t "surveillance frigates" . They class these as escorts because they're armed with 2 Exocet MM38 missiles each.

5 La Fayette class frigates.

So really they have 14 escorts/surveillance frigates that are comparable to RN escorts. But most of their ships are not blue water in any sense of the word..
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1. The 3500 ton Lafayette frigates have been reclassified as escorts, to permit the numbers to be kept up to 18 even though the numbers of FREMMs to be bought have been cut.
2. The 2950 ton Floréal -class "surveillance frigates" with 2 MM.38 are not classed as escorts - but they are blue water. They have a range of 10000 nautical miles, which reflects their role - oceanic patrol vessels.

All the escorts with the possible exception of the Lafayettes are true blue water ships.

This does not make the claim that the RN is smaller than the MN true, & you're absolutely right to dismiss it, but there's no need to exaggerate the margin.

Padfoot said:
And a Charles de Gaulle, two Horizon, 11 FREMM and 6 of the Barracuda class attack subs are along way behind the RN of the next decade, IMO.
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True, true, even including the Lafayettes it's a fair way behind. Where numbers are close, the size & capability of the average ship in each category is less.
 
P

Padfoot

New Member
swerve said:
1. The 3500 ton Lafayette frigates have been reclassified as escorts, to permit the numbers to be kept up to 18 even though the numbers of FREMMs to be bought have been cut.
2. The 2950 ton Floréal -class "surveillance frigates" with 2 MM.38 are not classed as escorts - but they are blue water. They have a range of 10000 nautical miles, which reflects their role - oceanic patrol vessels.

All the escorts with the possible exception of the Lafayettes are true blue water ships.

This does not make the claim that the RN is smaller than the MN true, & you're absolutely right to dismiss it, but there's no need to exaggerate the margin.
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Yeah.

I was referring to reports in the British media that reported the French having 30/ish escorts as opposed to 25 in the RN. They made a big deal about at the time.
 
K

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Padfoot said:
I was referring to reports in the British media that reported the French having 30/ish escorts as opposed to 25 in the RN.
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Of course British media was "hyping" it. If we count it all, we could take in the Floreals and D'Estienne d'Orves - that would be 33 then, probably the number used. With the Floreals not counted as escorts by France, and the D'Estienne d'Orves being stripped of most combat systems and relegated from ASW pack escort to overseas patrol duty.

The point in my opinion would be more that unless RN assets are considerably upgraded or replaced, the RN will be quickly outdone "quality-wise".
 
Systems Adict

Systems Adict

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Has anyone seen any press coverage WRT the fact that HMS Southampton was officially decommissioned yesterday (12 Feb 2009)??

Appreciate that it was a "done-deal", but didn't see anything on the national news, etc...

SA
 
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G

Grim901

New Member
Systems Adict said:
Has anyone seen any press coverage WRT the fact that HMS Southampton was officially decommissioned yesterday (12 Feb 2009)??

Appreciate that it was a "done-deal", but didn't see anything on the national news, etc...

SA
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I didn't see anything either. I did see an article about the Navy planning to move the frigate fleet from Devonport to Portsmouth.

Seems like a silly idea to me since Devonport has more than enough room (biggest dockyard in Europe), is where they are serviced and where a hardly any other ships are stationed.
 
A

ASFC

New Member
Well, unfortunately, if your budget is coming under pressure, and it is a choice between basing them at Devonport or actually keeping the Frigates, the Frigates will come first and Devonport may lose them to Portsmouth.
 
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