Its Gripen NG SAAB offer Brazil..The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
JAS-39C/D Gripen
and Rafale are the 3 short-listed fighters for the Brazilian Air Force program.
I wonder if they have observers status at the Swiss aircraft evaluation currently underway? (Technical and flight evaluations have been conducted on Rafale and Gripen so far)...
They could save a bit of cash that way I'd reckon...
F-X deal is back on. Brazil back in action
- Thread starter drg
- Start date
As Zeven pointed out it's Gripen NG not C/D in Brazil -- in addition Super Hornet decided to leave the competition in Switzerland (it seems they were told by the Swiss that their chances were nil or close to nil) leaving Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen to compete for the Swiss contract. Sorry for the OT...The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
JAS-39C/D Gripen
and Rafale are the 3 short-listed fighters for the Brazilian Air Force program.
I wonder if they have observers status at the Swiss aircraft evaluation currently underway? (Technical and flight evaluations have been conducted on Rafale and Gripen so far)...
They could save a bit of cash that way I'd reckon...
V
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Well there you go. I wouldn't have thought they'd submit a proposal of a plane that isn't in-service, hasn't been developed and hasn't even been ordered by anyone else yet, but rather an existing in-service type with a planned upgrade path.
Oh well. Shows what I know...
I am aware that Boeing pulled out of the Swiss competition. I think you are speculating as to the reason though. Perhaps they took a realistic appraisal of the budget the Swiss were willing to put into, what is afterall, only a partial replacement of their existing F-5 Tiger II aircraft.
The Swiss are however conducting a thorough examination of the Rafale and the Gripen. That still has to be relevent to the Brazilians. It ain't possible to evaluate the Gripen NG (except on paper) at this time...
The Gripen Demo is flying, & the Brazilians will be able to track its progress, so although there is no complete Gripen NG to evaluate, they have a bit more to go on than paper specs. Its planned systems are probably best viewed as the upgrade path for the Swedish air force Gripens. You appear to think of it as a completely new type, which is inappropriate: it's an evolution, much lower risk than a new development, & available in stages.
The Brazilians would have to rely on SAAB on this one. As the Gripen NG made it to the shortlist they apparently have quite some credibility. Future will tell how far it will take them.
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The Swiss and Brazilians will most likely evaluate the Gripen Demo 39-7, a heavily modified JAS 39D which first flew on 27 May of this year. The first Gripen NG is scheduled to enter service in 2013.
From what i know, they are developing a demo AESA with thales, that will not be installed on production Gripen NG.
Any news on NORA ? or will they buy an off the shelf AESA ? or will it be an up to you [customer] radar ?
SAAB has Gripen NG flying in it's simulator (with the most relevant capabilities such as flight performance, range and weapons load) as told to the Dutch after De Vries(State Secretary of Defence) debated that a simulation session in Sweden was meaningless since it could not be simulated.
(He also told the parliament underhouse that SAAB didn't even know what engine Gripen NG would have, implying that the aircrafts noise level was unclear...)
C.
That's impressive as he, De Viries, have had no knowledge of the submitted answers according to the Dutch defense ministry. He could perhaps apply to be the next Truxa?SAAB has Gripen NG flying in it's simulator (with the most relevant capabilities such as flight performance, range and weapons load) as told to the Dutch after De Vries(State Secretary of Defence) debated that a simulation session in Sweden was meaningless since it could not be simulated.
(He also told the parliament underhouse that SAAB didn't even know what engine Gripen NG would have, implying that the aircrafts noise level was unclear...)
C.
Admin: Text Deleted. that comment is completely unacceptable. READ the rules about respect.
Whatever your own pet beliefs are about whats best for any airforce - you will modify your posting behaviour and control your responses accordingly.
Warning issued. they are too easy to contradict as they are now.
I think that SAAB should withdraw from the Dutch so called "competition" ...
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Gripen NG will not be operative until 2014 2015 timeframe.
the NORA AESA project goes well and will be intergrated for Gripen NG 2015 and after. the AESA with thales will be tested next year to get valuable information.
the Swiss does not look at Gripen Demo. becuase they would NEVER consider a plattform that are not yet in service.
Admin: Text Deleted. that comment is completely unacceptable. READ the rules about respect.
Whatever your own pet beliefs are about whats best for any airforce - you will modify your posting behaviour and control your responses accordingly.
Warning issued.
the NORA AESA project goes well and will be intergrated for Gripen NG 2015 and after. the AESA with thales will be tested next year to get valuable information.
the Swiss does not look at Gripen Demo. becuase they would NEVER consider a plattform that are not yet in service.
Admin: Text Deleted. that comment is completely unacceptable. READ the rules about respect.
Whatever your own pet beliefs are about whats best for any airforce - you will modify your posting behaviour and control your responses accordingly.
Warning issued.
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Due to users requests, this thread is being re-opened.
The earlier warnings still apply.
Please take heed of these. The thread will be closely monitored.
Regards
AD
The earlier warnings still apply.
Please take heed of these. The thread will be closely monitored.
Regards
AD
Detailed RFPs Submitted to FAB
Boeing (F/A-18E/F), Dassault (Rafale), and SAAB (Gripen NG) submitted their detailed operational, logistic, industrial, commercial, technical, commercial compensation (offset) and technology transfer proposal to the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) on Feb 2.
The word on the street is that the following strengths are shown by each aircraft:
Gripen NG - Cost
Rafale - Political
F/A-18E - Performance
Boeing (F/A-18E/F), Dassault (Rafale), and SAAB (Gripen NG) submitted their detailed operational, logistic, industrial, commercial, technical, commercial compensation (offset) and technology transfer proposal to the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) on Feb 2.
The word on the street is that the following strengths are shown by each aircraft:
Gripen NG - Cost
Rafale - Political
F/A-18E - Performance
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I would add:
Gripen NG - Cost + risk since it is NOT an operational fighter and requires significant development before it is at a production status, depending on the configuration of the response submitted by SAAB.
Scorpion82
New Member
Is it known if there will be a proper evaluation of the contenders and when a decision will be made? What is the FABs schedule on introducing the FX-2?
He was listing strengths, why would you add risk to that list?
Gripen NG have a lot in common with Gripen A/B/C/D and a lot of the pitfalls you face when developing new fighter have already been experienced and therefore the same mistake wont be made twice.
The higher the commonality, the less novelty. The more similar it is to older Gripen, the less advanced it will be, the less improvements will be implemented. It's either one or the other. Either it's an advanced 4.5th gen fighter based loosely on the Gripen, or a minor upgrade to the Gripen that includes limited airframe changes (in which case it's notably behind 4.5th gen contenders).He was listing strengths, why would you add risk to that list?
Gripen NG have a lot in common with Gripen A/B/C/D and a lot of the pitfalls you face when developing new fighter have already been experienced and therefore the same mistake wont be made twice.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The Gripen NG is a demonstrator. It is NOT a production fighter. It is subject to significant risk including, but not limited to:He was listing strengths, why would you add risk to that list?
Gripen NG have a lot in common with Gripen A/B/C/D and a lot of the pitfalls you face when developing new fighter have already been experienced and therefore the same mistake wont be made twice.
1. Aerodynamic issues. The shape of the fuselage and wing area is being changed. Additional hardpoints are being added and weight is being added to the airframe. SIGNIFICANT flight testing will need to be conducted to validate these changes. Load configurations will need to be extensively tested.
2. It is getting a new radar that has yet to even be developed. What the NG demonstrator has is a new antennae bolted on to an existing "back end" radar. It is not operational, but is being used for test and development purposes.
These 2 issues alone have a LONG way to go before being operational. That is the risk I was referring to. Until this risk is eliminated, costs remain unknown...
The Swedes have offered a guaranteed fixed price to Denmark that includes not just acquisition cost but also 30-year life-time costs.
The Danes are offered Gripen NG not the current C/D.
I don't know if they plan to give a similar offer to Brazil. If they do, the risk is carried by the Swedish government, not by Brazil.
This is rather unusual, but seems to be a good deal for the customer....
from mp:
http://www.dr.dk/P1/P1Morgen/Udsendelser/2009/02/05/103117.htm
V
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I'm just trying to tone down the whole risk debate. Some people seem to think the Gripen NG flight test program will be equally extensive as for the F-35A/B/C.
I'm confused. Are you referring to the Gripen NG (future Gripen E/F or whatever Saab decides to call it) or the Gripen Demo [pages 6-7] (the flying testbed, Test A/C 39-7) in the post above? One of the purposes of Gripen Demo is to lower risks in the Gripen NG development by introducing many future systems early in the development phase.
Regarding the costs, I can only agree with Vivendi with the additional remark that Norway was offered a fixed prize as well. Low procurement cost as well as low LCC is, and has always been, one of the strengths of the Gripen fighter.
Returning to the Brazil topic but continuing on the cost:
I wonder if Boeing can afford to offer 36 SH at $2B. That's the similar amount Australia paid for 24 SH. Dassault however, are probably desperate enough to get an export costumer to keep the price below budget even if they might lose a buck or two.
OT: Norway was offered a fixed price for the acquisition of 48 NG, not for life-time cost. The big argument between Norway and Sweden was on life-time costs, in particular TCO. There was a huge discrepancy. Sweden now wants to avoid a similar issue in Denmark by offering a fixed life-time cost.
Sounds rather unusal to me, and could indicate that the Swedes are quite confident in their cost estimates.
Have other companies selling fighter jets made similar offerings?
V