The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
Can't see the gov stepping in to stop a BAE merger.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7793171.stm
Misleading article. Aldermaston is wholly owned by the British government. What's been sold is the operating company, i.e. the firm which runs it, under contract to the government.

If that firm ever lost the contract to another one, the staff at Aldermaston would transfer to the new operating company, & everything would carry on.

BAe is a different case. It owns all its factories, design offices, etc. in the UK.
 

Grim901

New Member
Misleading article. Aldermaston is wholly owned by the British government. What's been sold is the operating company, i.e. the firm which runs it, under contract to the government.

If that firm ever lost the contract to another one, the staff at Aldermaston would transfer to the new operating company, & everything would carry on.

BAe is a different case. It owns all its factories, design offices, etc. in the UK.
On top of that the operating company AWE Plc. has a UK govt. golden share.

I've also checked about Qinetiq and BAE in regards to my earlier posts, both do have a golden share owned by the UK govt.

And in regards to EU legislation on them: The ownership of a golden share of BAA by the UK govt. was ruled illegal and set a precedent, but made concessions in regards to strategically important companies i.e defence companies. The French and British would never have gone along with any other ruling.
 

stuuu28

New Member
The Jobs dont matter

If BAE want to sell or merge with another company then loss of jobs isn't going to worry them.

You just have to look at what happened to Rover to see that.

And the government wont stop them unless the jobs are in one of thier constituencies.

I cant see the government being able to support all the defense industries and can see one or more of them being sold off to US or EU companies, Land Sea or Air take your pick.
 

ASFC

New Member
If BAE want to sell or merge with another company then loss of jobs isn't going to worry them.

And the government wont stop them unless the jobs are in one of thier constituencies.
Quite. John Hutton becomes Defence Secretary and oh look 7 or even 8 Astutes are suddenly back 'on'. Guess which constituency he represents!:rolleyes:


stuuu28 said:
I cant see the government being able to support all the defense industries and can see one or more of them being sold off to US or EU companies, Land Sea or Air take your pick.
In many ways that is/has happened, but so far it has been done by BAE acquiring overseas companies and equipment they no longer want to sell that is made in the UK being quietly 'dropped and/or moved'. The SA80 system is a case in point.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
BAE's business model has moved on from just building guns, bullets, tanks, ships etc. The same way Rolls Royce has. Both are now hugely successful companies. One of the critical factors is the recent long term agreements they have signed with Governments, which allow for the companies to build infrastructure, and more importantly take on new apprentices who are guaranteed contracts for the long term (a critical factor in building sustainability). The Harrier support programme for one (see below). This is a win, win solution for both Government and BAE/RR because it builds a tight partnership, which in times of crisis can be ramped up based on the an established long term Military / Civilian partnership. This type of agreement ties a company to the UK, avoiding boom / bust construction / contract cycles.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/britain-moves-forward-on-harrier-support-agreements-03368/

After the US, BAE's largest market is the UK, They are not going to jeopardize that. No other company in Europe is building two 65K ton carriers, SSN Sub's, or AEW destroyers of a similar tonnage. These ships will need maintaining, and I have nodoubt BVT will sign long term service agreements.

The one area I do worry about however is Submarine construction, we cannot afford to loose the skills relearned during the ASTUTE build programme, they must be retained, either by building more ASTUTES (7&8) or by moving on to the SSBN replacement.

Moving forward on the C3 project I can see BVT offering a lease arrangement to spread the pain, similar to what has been down with the OPV's for UK and Falklands service.

We all love to 'bag' BAE, but they have managed to penetrate foreign markets through cleaver acquisitions like no other non-US company. The purchase of United Defence and the South African MARP produces was a master stroke considering the current operational deployments in A-Stan and Iraq.
 

citizen578

New Member
The one area I do worry about however is Submarine construction, we cannot afford to loose the skills relearned during the ASTUTE build programme, they must be retained, either by building more ASTUTES (7&8) or by moving on to the SSBN replacement.
Well there's good news on that front:

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=8351

Hutton confirms Astute submarine order
Monday, January 26, 2009


Britain needs seven Astute Class submarines and will buy all of the planned orders Defence Secretary John Hutton.

Speaking during a visit to Barrow shipyard, the home of Britain's submarine construction, Hutton moved to quell any rumours that the Astute order may be further reduced from seven to four as a result of a massive budget deficit.

"We are absolutely committed to building seven Astute submarines.

"The Royal Navy needs them, the country needs them, we need them locally and they are going to be very capable submarines for the Royal Navy, so there is no question at all about that," Hutton said.

His comments, which were first reported in the North West Evening Mail, are in sharp contrast from the murky statements made in Parliament over the last few weeks. Defence ministers have avoided questions about when the final three Astutes will be ordered as speculation has mounted that the Barrow shipyard cannot sustain the work on both the Astutes and the Vanguard replacement programme.

The Royal Navy has been the primary victim of defence cuts and delays over the last few years. The carrier programme has been delayed by two years while the Type 45 Destroyer order has been halved from 12 to six. With the Astute order already being dropped from eight to seven, there was speculation that further cuts were on the way.

"In the current climate, it is more important than ever that the government sticks to the commitments that it has made," Hutton stated.

He denied that the government is cutting defence spending and moved to place the blame on the previous Conservative government.

"We are not planning to cut defence spending, far from it, defence spending is rising and that is a good thing.

"Defence spending had come down," Hutton said discussing his early years as an MP, "And we know the consequences of that."

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=8415

Hutton signals go ahead for Trident
Friday, January 30, 2009


The replacements for the Vanguard submarines "have to be built" according to Defence Secretary John Hutton, despite concerns about the £20bn price tag at a time when the MoD budget is stretched thin.

Recently several retired generals and defence chiefs including Lord Ramsbotham who interviewed with Defencemanagement.com, have raised opposition to the Trident replacement programme, arguing that the costs were too much and the size of the programme could be smaller. They called for a renewed debate on the entire issue of Trident.

Huge delays to other procurement programmes has justified the argument by some that the Trident programme must be delayed by five to ten years. But in an interview Hutton confirmed that the new submarines would be going ahead.

"They have to be built because that is an absolutely crucial part of our defence.
"You have to think about the next fifty years, not the next five years.
"We know there are nuclear weapons states around the world. We know they are trying to enhance their capability. We have to defend ourselves and the deterrent allows us to do that," Hutton said in comments that first appeared in the Northwest Evening Mail.
Hutton at times appeared to be taking on theme of protecting future generations by renewing the deterrent, noting that "previous generations have had the benefit of the nuclear deterrent. It's been very controversial, I don't dispute that, but they have had the benefit of it and I think we should make sure future generations do so as well."

Even though Lord Ramsbotham and leading experts on the Vanguard submarines have argued that the current programme could actually be extended by ten years to 2034, thus allowing the replacements for Trident to be delayed by a further eight to ten years, Hutton claimed that any delay would lead to a period where Britain would be without nuclear weapons.
Britain has also come under sharp criticism for advocating nuclear disarmanent but then renewing Trident. Hutton argued that the best way to achieve the former was to have the latter in proliferation discussions.
"If we want to be able to defend ourselves we have to take decisions now, otherwise there will be a gap in the nuclear deterrence and that would be profoundly dangerous for the UK."

Britain is expected to build four new submarines to carry the nuclear deterrent from 2024 onwards.

:):)

As ever, I'll believe it when it happens, but the signs are promising.
 

battlensign

New Member
Well there's good news on that front:

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=8351

Hutton confirms Astute submarine order
Monday, January 26, 2009


Britain needs seven Astute Class submarines and will buy all of the planned orders Defence Secretary John Hutton.


As ever, I'll believe it when it happens, but the signs are promising.
Got to love the politics.....only 7 is good now? (what did SDR recommend again...?)

Brett.
 

battlensign

New Member
Pretty sure that the original plan was for 8. Indeed, an 8th still hasn't been ruled out.
SDR in '98 contemplated the reduction of the SSN force from 12 to 10.

Delivering Security In A Changing World in '03 formally determined to reduce the SSN force from 12 to 8 by December 2008.

Brett.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
According to the First Sea Lord, he needs six SSN to complete all expected tasks currently. With 7, this leaves one spare. Once all ASTUTES are on line they will never need refueling during their life span, which means no extended periods of down-time. Plus they carry a v-heavy weapons load when bench-marked against other SSN's (bar Virginia Class), twice that of the Subs they are replacing.

6 Subs (plus one dedicated to escorting the active SSBN) capable of travelling anywhere in the world armed with 14-Tomahawk each brings much to the table.

ASTUTE CLASS
Crew
110
Displacement
7,800t (dived)
Weapons
36 torpedoes and missiles (14 Tomahawk Blk III likely load)

Our only hope is when the Tory's kick NuLabour in to touch Defence Spending will increase.
 

TimmyC

New Member
I've also checked about Qinetiq and BAE in regards to my earlier posts, both do have a golden share owned by the UK govt.
Absolutely correct, hadn't realised this, thought it was pure posturing. Apologies.

Who am I to question a British First Sea Lord, but!, how senior authorities can state we require 12 SSN's to do the job just to reduce it by 50% 10 years later is beyond belief. Quite literally, I do not believe what they say regarding minimal requirements. The carve up between the wish list and what you actually get is never going to be ideal, but saying things are fine with a smile is a bit too unbelievable when taken in context of what other senior members of the Navy have said previously, and not too long ago at that.

Granted, an increase upwards from 6 to 7 or 8 is to be commended.

All we need is a multi-constituency defence secretary who is the local MP for every major defence build so they all get a boast. Now that is dreaming.

Hope at least the same very high standard of officers are coming out of the 'Perisher' course as have previously to command these reduced hulls. Only know what I've learnt from limited books and articles about the subject, but they certainly have my respect. As does the RN as a whole.

I'm interested to know what would be the outcome of any merger between BAE systems and General Dynamics.
Market capitalisation of BAE is £13.7bn.
Market capitalisation of General Dynamics is $21.7bn
Nearly on par with each other in that regard, although not quite that simple I'm sure.
Also wondering what the legal status of dual-listings are regarding US stocks. Is it like US passports where they cannot have dual citizenship? Will try and find an answer to this at a later point, SEC maybe.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Mmmm...

Seeing as we've been discussing BAE, what do you make of the headline listed in Jane's (see link below) regarding the fact that VT have announced that they want to sell their shipbuilding business to BVT. This implies that BVT will have a larger share of the Carriers, while taking on some of the workload that VT has already won, e.g. the ships for Trinidad & Tobago...

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/business.shtml


Your thoughts.....


SA
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Mmmm...

Seeing as we've been discussing BAE, what do you make of the headline listed in Jane's (see link below) regarding the fact that VT have announced that they want to sell their shipbuilding business to BVT. This implies that BVT will have a larger share of the Carriers, while taking on some of the workload that VT has already won, e.g. the ships for Trinidad & Tobago...

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/business.shtml


Your thoughts.....


SA
ambiverlent as BAE has such a large buisness that taking over completly will not effect the way BAE runs and VT makes far more money out of the servises it provides than any of its ship building. sad to see such an old name go though. Its so difficult to make a profit in shipbuilding especialy in a downturn
 

Grim901

New Member
Mmmm...

Seeing as we've been discussing BAE, what do you make of the headline listed in Jane's (see link below) regarding the fact that VT have announced that they want to sell their shipbuilding business to BVT. This implies that BVT will have a larger share of the Carriers, while taking on some of the workload that VT has already won, e.g. the ships for Trinidad & Tobago...

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/business.shtml


Your thoughts.....


SA
This was discussed a couple of pages back (news came out last week). BAE is basically buying out VT's shipbuilding, so BAE will have a massive stake in the Carriers.
 

kev 99

Member
Mmmm...

Seeing as we've been discussing BAE, what do you make of the headline listed in Jane's (see link below) regarding the fact that VT have announced that they want to sell their shipbuilding business to BVT. This implies that BVT will have a larger share of the Carriers, while taking on some of the workload that VT has already won, e.g. the ships for Trinidad & Tobago...

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/business.shtml


Your thoughts.....


SA
Pretty much agree with what Harry said, also it's not as if it wasn't expected is it.
 
possible future good news ??, maybe in around 15 years we see the R.N with 2 powerful and versatil LHD,s ?? here is an articule by jane,s

UK studies start to shape future amphibious ships
Embryonic study work to examine the long-term recapitalisation of the UK Royal Navy's amphibious shipping fleet have identified a preference for a future Amphibious Task Group (ATG) capability centred around two new large multipurpose amphibious ships (LHDs). The UK's current amphibious shipping capability is centred on three specialist platforms: the landing platform helicopter (LPH) HMS Ocean , commissioned in 1998; and the landing platform dock (LPD) ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark , which entered service in 2003 and 2005 respectively
 

Grim901

New Member
possible future good news ??, maybe in around 15 years we see the R.N with 2 powerful and versatil LHD,s ?? here is an articule by jane,s

UK studies start to shape future amphibious ships
Embryonic study work to examine the long-term recapitalisation of the UK Royal Navy's amphibious shipping fleet have identified a preference for a future Amphibious Task Group (ATG) capability centred around two new large multipurpose amphibious ships (LHDs). The UK's current amphibious shipping capability is centred on three specialist platforms: the landing platform helicopter (LPH) HMS Ocean , commissioned in 1998; and the landing platform dock (LPD) ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark , which entered service in 2003 and 2005 respectively
So they're thinking more along the lines of the US Tarawa/Wasp classes?

I think that might be beneficial, but they shouldn't do it for yet more hull reductions. At this rate they'll just end up with one big really capable ship patrolling the oceans? I'd rather see more, slightly smaller ships.

As for a possible BAE/GD merger, I think it's a bad idea, the British will probably lose control because the Americans would never let a foreign company control their entire submarine industry.
 
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