Future Tanks - Tanks of the Future?

Tavarisch

New Member
*Note : I am unaware of any other threads that solely concentrate on this topic.


The concept of a futuristic tank is at hand by both Eastern and Western designers.

It would seem that Western designers prefer a tank that is light and can engage a target beyond line-of sight rather than a stand-up fight of conventional warfare. However, if it comes to the point where close range fighting is necessary, these tanks are alleged to be able to fight these battles as well. A good concept in my opinion. The upcoming MCS in the American FCS is a good example. These also have integrated active protection systems like Raytheon's quick-kill, unlike the Abrams. However, I am unsure of what other Western countries think, but since the US is one of the major powers in NATO, it is seen fit to be placed here. There are also rumors that a Railgun could be domesticated into the turret of one of the tanks in the far future (probably like 2050 or something :) ). The US Navy has made the first prototype of a railgun that launches an intermediately sized projectile that produces roughly 10.6 megajoules of energy. The impact of the projectile would be tremendous. It's a good way to fire a nuke without being noticed I guess. (Like MGS4 suggests....)

Then, there is the traditional conventional design where the tanks still weigh about 40-50 tonnes, up-armored with External and Integrated ERA as well as Active Protection Systems. This seems to be the take the Russians are going for, the T95 and the T12UM1 "Black Eagle" (some call it a T80UM2 as well) are good examples. These tanks have abandoned the concept of the original small tank turrets. Instead, the crew are in the hull, the turret is auto-loaded (naturally) and the whole tank operates via Virtual Reality for movement. The T12UM1 is seen with SHTORA or ARENA, but the T95 utilizes both. The crew count is still three.

Of course all systems are computerized. The standard bore size of each tank is between 130mm to 152mm it would seem. The exception would be the T12UM1 as it still uses the 125mm 2A46M gun but plans to move it up to 135mm is in consideration. A bore size of 200mm++ would be a bit impractical already, right?

So the question is, which concept is more logical? Or, should tanks cease to exist since, as some suggest, they are coming to the point of obsolescence? Are these concepts even practical or even logistically possible? Give your reasons for your statement.

EDIT :

Also, do you think an auto-loader to be more advantageous or disadvantageous? Increased fire rate sounds like a good idea but if it breaks down, then too bad I guess. Plus, I'd hate to lose arms and limbs but I've heard this to be a myth amongst Russian tankers.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
*Note : I am unaware of any other threads that solely concentrate on this topic.


The concept of a futuristic tank is at hand by both Eastern and Western designers.

It would seem that Western designers prefer a tank that is light and can engage a target beyond line-of sight rather than a stand-up fight of conventional warfare. However, if it comes to the point where close range fighting is necessary, these tanks are alleged to be able to fight these battles as well. A good concept in my opinion. The upcoming MCS in the American FCS is a good example. These also have integrated active protection systems like Raytheon's quick-kill, unlike the Abrams. However, I am unsure of what other Western countries think, but since the US is one of the major powers in NATO, it is seen fit to be placed here. There are also rumors that a Railgun could be domesticated into the turret of one of the tanks in the far future (probably like 2050 or something :) ). The US Navy has made the first prototype of a railgun that launches an intermediately sized projectile that produces roughly 10.6 megajoules of energy. The impact of the projectile would be tremendous. It's a good way to fire a nuke without being noticed I guess. (Like MGS4 suggests....)

Then, there is the traditional conventional design where the tanks still weigh about 40-50 tonnes, up-armored with External and Integrated ERA as well as Active Protection Systems. This seems to be the take the Russians are going for, the T95 and the T12UM1 "Black Eagle" (some call it a T80UM2 as well) are good examples. These tanks have abandoned the concept of the original small tank turrets. Instead, the crew are in the hull, the turret is auto-loaded (naturally) and the whole tank operates via Virtual Reality for movement. The T12UM1 is seen with SHTORA or ARENA, but the T95 utilizes both. The crew count is still three.

Of course all systems are computerized. The standard bore size of each tank is between 130mm to 152mm it would seem. The exception would be the T12UM1 as it still uses the 125mm 2A46M gun but plans to move it up to 135mm is in consideration. A bore size of 200mm++ would be a bit impractical already, right?

So the question is, which concept is more logical? Or, should tanks cease to exist since, as some suggest, they are coming to the point of obsolescence? Are these concepts even practical or even logistically possible? Give your reasons for your statement.
Maybe you should look at all the ETC programs that are in effect for NATO tank producing countries, rail guns can already be placed into tank turrets, the bugger is the power pack supply which is fairly large.
 

Firn

Active Member
Railguns could certainly be a great asset to a tank. The ability to deliver a compact and light projectile at very high speed gives them a high momentum punch, long range, reduced time of flight (with all the advantages) and lots of rounds to sling down range. However the difficulties are many. Especially the amount of energy required is breathtaking and should keep them away from AFV for a long time to come.

A tank is as an asset foremost a combination of direct firepower, mobility and surviveability. The FCS program tries to create a powerful syntesis of the virtues which is easy to move around, to interact with and to support. We will see how it will work under the conditions of the battlefields of the future. But for a long time we will still see the heavy MBTs with heavy upgrades roaming in them.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Project 640 is dead. OTM went bankrupt, and has been sold off partly to our MoD, partly to UVZ. We know nothing about the Project 775, because it's secret and has yet to be shown publicly. So any speculation on those is out of the question.
 

Tavarisch

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
The Project 640 is dead. OTM went bankrupt, and has been sold off partly to our MoD, partly to UVZ. We know nothing about the Project 775, because it's secret and has yet to be shown publicly. So any speculation on those is out of the question.
Yeah, it's sad to hear OTM went out the window. The T12UM1 looks pretty capable though. As far as I'm concerned with the T95, the details are quite vague and secretive. But, I'm just basing it off speculations made by people in Jane's Defence Weekly. They made sense in my opinion. Further development of the T12UM1 would be nice to see. It looked very promising.

It seems to be pretty realistic, but knowing Russians they probably wouldn't tell you anything. The AK74 came out as a shock to Western Intelligence Officers. They only knew about it in the Victory Day parade of '78 or something.

By the way, can any of you give me a link to that ETC program thing for NATO tanks? Can't seem to find it as every time I type in ETC in google, it either gives me a link to Wikipedia that gives a large disambiguation or the definition of et cetera. And every time I pair up ETC with NATO, it gives me a website that has a sentence like "US, NATO and etc".
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe you should look at all the ETC programs that are in effect for NATO tank producing countries, rail guns can already be placed into tank turrets, the bugger is the power pack supply which is fairly large.
Nope, current pulsed alternators for direct fire can provide 2-5MJ to the muzzle for KE and only have a volume of 1.9 m3 and mass of 7,000 kg. The next generation available from 2011ish will provide 8-10MJ to the muzzle from a volume of 1.5m3 and mass of 4000kg. The problem with EMLs is not power but tube life. This is a problem that can be solved by science.

The XM1200 vehicles are being designed for EMLs already (at least XM1202 MCS and XM1203 NLOS-C). When so equipped they will make a mockery of passive and reactive armours.
 

Tavarisch

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Nope, current pulsed alternators for direct fire can provide 2-5MJ to the muzzle for KE and only have a volume of 1.9 m3 and mass of 7,000 kg. The next generation available from 2011ish will provide 8-10MJ to the muzzle from a volume of 1.5m3 and mass of 4000kg. The problem with EMLs is not power but tube life. This is a problem that can be solved by science.

The XM1200 vehicles are being designed for EMLs already (at least XM1202 MCS and XM1203 NLOS-C). When so equipped they will make a mockery of passive and reactive armours.
Sad to hear Kontakt-5 and Relikt are no longer viable options. :shudder
They are one of the things that make Russian tanks look good on the parade ground.

Are you sure power isn't a problem? Yeah we know it can be solved by science. But you'd probably need a mini sized cold-fusion reactor to power the thing. And as if mini in this context wasn't big.

Tube life is, as you correctly note, a very big problem. The heat produced when firing the weapon is tremendous. It could very well melt the barrel.

Theoretically (at least I think) the recoil looks way too big for a tank to handle. I saw a video of the US navy test firing the thing, and the ground shook.

Don't you think 4000kg would be too hard to load into a tank anyway? I mean, the weight would be tremendous. An auto-loader would be the only solution to loading that thing into a cannon or a launcher.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Nope, current pulsed alternators for direct fire can provide 2-5MJ to the muzzle for KE and only have a volume of 1.9 m3 and mass of 7,000 kg. The next generation available from 2011ish will provide 8-10MJ to the muzzle from a volume of 1.5m3 and mass of 4000kg. The problem with EMLs is not power but tube life. This is a problem that can be solved by science.

The XM1200 vehicles are being designed for EMLs already (at least XM1202 MCS and XM1203 NLOS-C). When so equipped they will make a mockery of passive and reactive armours.
Nope, the gun tube wear factor was a thing in the 90s, still the power supply is a major concern in terms of working properly in a combat setting, crew safety and size of power unit.
 
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Tavarisch

New Member
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  • #9
Nope, the gun tube wear factor was a thing in the 90s, still the power supply is a major concern in terms of working properly in a combat setting, crew safety and size of power unit.
They've settled gun tube wear? Already? Wow. Can I ask as to how that was done? I'm curious to know, it's been plaguing me ever since I first read about railguns.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic if my statement does sound like it.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They've settled gun tube wear? Already? Wow. Can I ask as to how that was done? I'm curious to know, it's been plaguing me ever since I first read about railguns.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic if my statement does sound like it.
Big obstacles in the past that caused issues were Armature integrity, keeping the bore aligned and stiff, all factors needed when firing things at such a huge muzzle velocity from a power source, these issues are caused because of a huge amount of heat that is generated on the gun tube and chamber. With the advancements of composites and the way the gun tube is shaped we have eliminated this issue by keeping the gun tube aligned and cooled.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Nope, the gun tube wear factor was a thing in the 90s, still the power supply is a major concern in terms of working properly in a combat setting, crew safety and size of power unit.
Ahh no... From a scientific research point of view tube life is much better since the 90s. But without another tranche of improvement EMLs are limited to <100 rounds per barrel. So still a long way to go.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ahh no... From a scientific research point of view tube life is much better since the 90s. But without another tranche of improvement EMLs are limited to <100 rounds per barrel. So still a long way to go.
A 100 rounds, and what caliber size will wear out a gun tube at this number because for what I am hearing the actual barrel build for a vehicle platform is really promising with one big factor that needs over come, muzzle blast. For the power source we have a long ways due to the size of the capacitors which still need to rotate to generate enough juice. The gun Tube needs to withstand a temperature rating of around thousand degrees throughout the entire gun tube, composites have helped us with this due to even distribution of heat placed on the tube, think of reasons why thermal shrouds are used on tank main guns.

If wear is a issue then why not a coil gun design, hardly any wear at all on the tube itself.
 
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