The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

citizen578

New Member
Interesting to see her arrive at Prompey with a Merlin on the back. As I understood it, she was to be Lynx-equipped initially.

In many ways the Lynx made more sense, given the lack of installed anti-ship missiles, on both the Merlins and 45's.

I definitely agree with the above, sea viper has a very nice ring to it!
All in all, superb news :D :party
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting to see her arrive at Prompey with a Merlin on the back. As I understood it, she was to be Lynx-equipped initially.

In many ways the Lynx made more sense, given the lack of installed anti-ship missiles, on both the Merlins and 45's.

I definitely agree with the above, sea viper has a very nice ring to it!
All in all, superb news :D :party
nice contunation of the sea slug/dart and sea/cat line of missiles and a cool name. accomadion look like a vast improvement over the 42 they remide me a little of youth hostal rooms rather than cramped navy accomodation.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
EXERCISE TAURUS 09 will comprise the following assets:

  • Landing Platform Dock (LPD) HMS BULWARK (Flagship)
  • Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH) HMS OCEAN
  • Type 23 Frigate HMS ARGYLL
  • Type 23 Frigate HMS SOMERSET
  • United States Navy Guided Missile Destroyer USS MITSCHER
  • French Navy Georges Leygues-class Frigate FS DUPLEIX
  • RFA MOUNTS BAY
  • RFA LYME BAY
  • RFA WAVE RULER
  • RFA FORT AUSTIN
  • 2 x Trafalgar Class submarines
  • 40 Commando RM plus supporting arms (helo, 539 assualt raiding sqn, logistical support)
Exercises will be conducted with countries including Malta, Gibraltar, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Turkey, India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and Brunei.

The USS Mictsher will be providing the area defence, no T42/T45. Shame Daring couldn't tag along for the ride now she's been handed over for final RN systems work-up.

The RN/RM plan to conduct riverine operations with the Bangladesh Navy, one assumes they will be taking along the new amoured patrol craft, which can be transported in Bulwark.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...arinesRaidingCraftIsUparmouredAndUpgunned.htm

One also assumes Aus / NZ will be involved during the period when Malaysia and Singapore participate as part of the five nations defence agreement?
 
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kev 99

Member
Wasn't sure about the name Sea Vyper, getting used to it now, surprised the MOD managed to keep it quiet for so long really.
 

citizen578

New Member
BAE up to it's old tricks

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=8381

BAE set to monopolise shipbuilding sector
Wednesday, January 28, 2009


VT will sell its shipbuilding operations to BAE this summer, making the latter the largest naval shipbuilding company in Britain.

A little known clause in the aircraft carrier construction joint venture contract between the two companies allowed for BAE to buy out VT's shipbuilding sector after three years or earlier if VT so desired.

A statement from VT yesterday confirmed that the company was withdrawing from shipbuilding and would sell its share to BAE for an estimated £380m.

Since the sale involves the work on the aircraft carriers, the MoD must still approve of the deal since BVT Surface Fleet will effectively become simply BAE.

VT's sale signals the start of a shift for the company to support solutions. In recent years the company has increasingly sought contracts in military support, managing equipment and disposing of waste. Approximately 80 per cent of its contracts last year were in support services. If the sale of its shipbuilding section is approved, the company can apply to become classified as a support services company.

It is still unclear why exactly VT is aiming to get out the shipbuilding business, The company was originally founded as a shipbuilder in the 19th century. But massive cuts to the Royal Navy fleet and procurement programme have led to a severe lack of business. What business there is, BAE has been awarded the vast majority of it.

With the sale of VT's shipbuilding, BAE will be left with a monopoly over the industry in Britain and most of Europe for that matter.

My comment: what exactly is the Government's fair-traging/competition commissions doing, if they can't intervene to stop the strangelhold of BAE on our defence sector? The last few years have seen a concerning trend of hostile-takeovers, corruption, and highly questionable political allegiances.

The positive: a company leading the world in defence technology and enterprise.
The negative: overpriced products and HMG rapidly losing sovereignty of it's own defence sector


:unknown
conundrum
 

ASFC

New Member
I suspect there is nothing that can be done. The Govt have pushed us towards a single warship/sub builder, and even if the Competition Commission and/or the EU did rule on it I suspect they would be ignored by the Govt, simply on the grounds that it is important to have a strong national warship builder.

Although I quite agree-any chance of getting value from taxpayers money has gone down the pan with a single builder. But then that is the European trend-France, Italy, Germany, Spain and the Netherlands all seem to have single warship builders who hold near monopolies.

I don't think this is BAEs doing though. VT have wanted out for a long time, and the Govt have pushed the sector in this direction.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
I suspect there is nothing that can be done. The Govt have pushed us towards a single warship/sub builder, and even if the Competition Commission and/or the EU did rule on it I suspect they would be ignored by the Govt, simply on the grounds that it is important to have a strong national warship builder.

Although I quite agree-any chance of getting value from taxpayers money has gone down the pan with a single builder. But then that is the European trend-France, Italy, Germany, Spain and the Netherlands all seem to have single warship builders who hold near monopolies.

I don't think this is BAEs doing though. VT have wanted out for a long time, and the Govt have pushed the sector in this direction.
Im thinking how many other contries have more than warship builder the USA has to big one force to work together on contracts to sevive which arn't to disimerler to CVF joint vencher. It unecomomic to have many builders. I
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But then that is the European trend-France, Italy, Germany, Spain and the Netherlands all seem to have single warship builders who hold near monopolies.
Germany is probably the worst example. There's TKMS, Lürssen Group, FSG and about half a dozen smaller yards (such as Abeking & Rasmussen) which all form project-specific groups competing with each other - plus there's almost another half a dozen yards which interact with the Navy when it comes to refits and maintenance. And all have both past contracts and future chances for more contracts, while also selling internationally.

France has at least DCN and CMN, and neither really has a monopoly across the board - only in specialized fields. In Italy and Spain, Fincantieri and Izar respectively have simply swallowed everyone else in the past couple decades. With regard to the Netherlands, its simply not big enough to allow for more than Damen Shipyards Group.
 

ASFC

New Member
I was generalising the trend. And it is a European one. I don't see others (US/China) going down the same route.

Either way, its bad news for British taxpayers, BAE controlling the Warship sector.
 
I was generalising the trend. And it is a European one. I don't see others (US/China) going down the same route.

Either way, its bad news for British taxpayers, BAE controlling the Warship sector.
I doubt it is bad news for the UK taxpayer as RN orders are so small now the cost-savings are long gone. [Type-45 unit-costs for example.]

However it may be bad news for the UK government. It has long been rumoured that BAe and General Dynamics are to couple. US legislation being what it is, this could lead to the UK having no national defence company. :(
 

ASFC

New Member
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm sure the Govt still holds a Golden share to stop any Merger like that taking place.............

Anyway miles O/T.
 

TimmyC

New Member
Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm sure the Govt still holds a Golden share to stop any Merger like that taking place.............

Anyway miles O/T.
The only EU countries which have felt the necessity to be so protectionist regarding 'golden shares' are France and Germany. Although as far as any new legislature goes I believe it was purely rhetoric at the time.
All the UK markets are far more open for inward investment, even industries concerning strategic national interests. To the point there are almost no off limits for the current British government. But that is the way this country now works, and has done for quite some time compared to our European neighbours. Well, compared to some of the 'old Europe' nations as ex-US defence secretary Rumsfeld once phrased it. The newer members of the EU are more in line with our stance on industry ownership and expansion, albeit for wholly different reasons.

FLUFFY THOUGHTS has highlighted an excellent point. It does open the way for further mergers and acquisitions down the road, such as an American merger or even takeover- and all the non-existent information sharing US congress refuses to allow that goes with it. Potentially crucial ever narrowing choices ahead regarding the UK's defence industry.
 

Grim901

New Member
The only EU countries which have felt the necessity to be so protectionist regarding 'golden shares' are France and Germany. Although as far as any new legislature goes I believe it was purely rhetoric at the time.
All the UK markets are far more open for inward investment, even industries concerning strategic national interests. To the point there are almost no off limits for the current British government. But that is the way this country now works, and has done for quite some time compared to our European neighbours. Well, compared to some of the 'old Europe' nations as ex-US defence secretary Rumsfeld once phrased it. The newer members of the EU are more in line with our stance on industry ownership and expansion, albeit for wholly different reasons.

FLUFFY THOUGHTS has highlighted an excellent point. It does open the way for further mergers and acquisitions down the road, such as an American merger or even takeover- and all the non-existent information sharing US congress refuses to allow that goes with it. Potentially crucial ever narrowing choices ahead regarding the UK's defence industry.
Britain does have golden shares in certain key companies. BAE is almost certainly one of them, as are the AWE and Qinetiq.

They released an industrial strategy that basically said BAE was all we had and we weren't letting go of them, so there's no way the government will let them disappear.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The only EU countries which have felt the necessity to be so protectionist regarding 'golden shares' are France and Germany.
... except the Golden Share concept does not exist in Germany, and never has.

The only exception is VW - and that required a special law back in 1960, resulting from the British High Commission transferring ownership of the company directly to a German state.

There has been discussion of Golden Share concepts in Germany, especially after 25% of HDW was bought by an American private equity fund, but technically it's not possible as the EU outlaws Golden Share rules for pretty much everything except energy supply and similar fields. With the present laws, Germany does not have any possibility to prevent foreign buyouts.

Golden Share verdicts by EU courts have been struck - aside from the above for the VW law against the German state Niedersachsen, which is in court again atm - against:
- the UK (Rs. C-98/01)
- France (Rs. C-483/99)
- Portugal (Rs. C-367/98)
- Italy (Rs. C-174/04, C-463/04, C-464/04)
- Spain (Rs. C-463/00)
- Netherlands (Rs. C-282/04, C-283/04)
Hungary changed its Golden Share laws after EU pressure. Belgium's Golden Share law is the only one ruled legit so far. The British case was for BAA.
 

TimmyC

New Member
Britain does have golden shares in certain key companies. BAE is almost certainly one of them, as are the AWE and Qinetiq.

They released an industrial strategy that basically said BAE was all we had and we weren't letting go of them, so there's no way the government will let them disappear.
Unsure of the legal ownership of AWE, but BAE & Qinetiq are both publicly listed companies, and as such a legal framework already exists as to ownership rights. As Kato points out excessive government intervention inside existing EU laws is a complicated issue and by no means certain to be successful.

... except the Golden Share concept does not exist in Germany, and never has.

The only exception is VW - and that required a special law back in 1960, resulting from the British High Commission transferring ownership of the company directly to a German state.

There has been discussion of Golden Share concepts in Germany, especially after 25% of HDW was bought by an American private equity fund, but technically it's not possible as the EU outlaws Golden Share rules for pretty much everything except energy supply and similar fields. With the present laws, Germany does not have any possibility to prevent foreign buyouts.

Golden Share verdicts by EU courts have been struck - aside from the above for the VW law against the German state Niedersachsen, which is in court again atm - against:
- the UK (Rs. C-98/01)
- France (Rs. C-483/99)
- Portugal (Rs. C-367/98)
- Italy (Rs. C-174/04, C-463/04, C-464/04)
- Spain (Rs. C-463/00)
- Netherlands (Rs. C-282/04, C-283/04)
Hungary changed its Golden Share laws after EU pressure. Belgium's Golden Share law is the only one ruled legit so far. The British case was for BAA.
I'll happily accept your point, I withdraw Germany from my previous post.

As far as protectionism goes, like the US the EU is just that, current news headlines are full of them. I'm sure everyone has their own opinions on the rights and wrongs of the aforementioned.
Not convinced 'Golden shares' legally exist, believe just the fact a possibly French government minister raised the issue was enough of a statement to ward off any potential outside takeovers.
Given the current climate I'd be mighty surprised for a private equity group or SWF to snap up a countries prime defence contractor anytime soon.
 

Padfoot

New Member
I doubt it is bad news for the UK taxpayer as RN orders are so small now the cost-savings are long gone. [Type-45 unit-costs for example.]

However it may be bad news for the UK government. It has long been rumoured that BAe and General Dynamics are to couple. US legislation being what it is, this could lead to the UK having no national defence company. :(
BAE has already taken over a US defence company (United Defense), don't think there was issues with that. They also took over Australia's largest defence company. Furthermore, if they did takeover/merge with General Dynamics they would be the senior partner and therefore be a majority listed UK company, though dual listed. Besides, isn't it so that British defence companies can't be foreign controlled? I know they're not allowed to have foreign CEOs or a foreign chairman.
 

ASFC

New Member
I see it as Padfoot has posted. The UK govt has 'a Golden Share'* in BAE to prevent it from coming under foreign control. Any ideas that a US Defence Company could just buy it and do as they see fit are off the reservation AFAIK.

* I think the UK Govt describes it as a 'special share', worth about £1, that prevents any foreign invester owning more than 15% of the company or changing parts of its Articles of Association (ref: wikipedia BAE article). In fact this is the wiki ref: here. Has this changed since the CC report in 1991?
 
Can't see the gov stepping in to stop a BAE merger.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7793171.stm
To be fair I think the situation is different for BAE as the amount of UK jobs at stake if they are sold could be horrific. It would take a serious amount of money and cast iron guarantees that all work that would have been ordered from UK parts of the company will still be in the future and I seriously doubt any overseas company would want to tie themselves to that.
National pride is important but this is more about jobs and cold hard cash.

To make this more on topic does anyone know if they will have any kind of webcam arrangement at the shipyards where the new carriers are being built as it would be interesting to see.
 
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