More T-72s for Iraq?!

[Feanor]

Just saw this article on newsru.com that claims the Iraqi army will purchase up to two thousand T-72 tanks in Ukraine, Poland, Czech Republic, and Hungary. They will be modernized by Defence Solutions to a much higher level, to include modern western electronics, and their new index will be T-91.

http://newsru.com/world/14jan2009/t72soviet.html

The article cites Tim Ringgold, CEO of Defence Solutions. Their homepage however is ominously silent on the matter.

 

[lobbie111]

Interesting, whats more interesting is that M60 tanks were not considered, you would think that the US could supply a substantial amount of Upgraded (maybe to the isreali level) M60's or maybe that's why the only upgrades are Isreali made?

 

[Ryan UK]

i thought iraq had opted to purchase the M1a1 Abrams

are they buying both or completely dropping the Abrams?

 

[Ryan UK]

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3896249&c=FEA&s=CVS

an english source which goes into detail.

 

[eckherl]

Interesting, whats more interesting is that M60 tanks were not considered, you would think that the US could supply a substantial amount of Upgraded (maybe to the isreali level) M60's or maybe that's why the only upgrades are Isreali made?

That is not correct, M60 series tanks were and still are being considered, along with a few other designs. They need tanks and lots of them.

 

[eckherl]

i thought iraq had opted to purchase the M1a1 Abrams

are they buying both or completely dropping the Abrams?

They will more than likely get their batch of M1A1 tanks also if Congress gives the nod which is likely, the Iraqis are not worried about having different platforms on the books. I told some of you quite awhile ago that additional T-72s were in the works along with rebuilding their Type 59 and 69 tanks.

 

[DavidDCM]

How many Iraqi tanks did the coalition forces leave intact during OIF? The article speaks of 140 tanks as of now, with 77 being the T-72M1 delivered from Hungary in 2005. What are the other 63? Remains from the Saddam-era or a more recent delivery?

 

[eckherl]

How many Iraqi tanks did the coalition forces leave intact during OIF? The article speaks of 140 tanks as of now, with 77 being the T-72M1 delivered from Hungary in 2005. What are the other 63? Remains from the Saddam-era or a more recent delivery?

I would place the figure at roughly 300 tanks at the current time, mostly consist of T-72, Type 59 and 69 series. China is also lending a hand in replacement parts.

 

[harryriedl]

i thought iraq had opted to purchase the M1a1 Abrams

are they buying both or completely dropping the Abrams?

I imagine its part of a high low mix with the M1 in the top units with T-72 for everybody else.
What intersting is the huge numbers of wheeled vichels they have adopted.

 

[lobbie111]

Sounds like a case of vast infantry support units made up of T-72's with the armour units to be made up of Abrams

 

[SkolZkiy]

without modernization those tanks are nothing but if modernized and equiped with NATO shells they may be more effective then M1 in Iraq

 

[anan]

Moderator, should we have one thread to discuss the ISF (Iraqi Security Forces ), their inventory of weapons, and their future procurement of weapons?

The report on the 2000 T72s is bogus as per MNF-I (Multinational Forces Iraq) and Iraqi PM Maliki's office. As best we know, the IA currently plans 210 T72 Tanks (although more are possible.) Defence Solutions is trying to sell this corrupt overpriced deal to the MoD (Ministry of Defense.) I hope for Iraq's sake that they fail.

The best source for data on the ISF and their weapons procurement is:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage15-Equipment.pdf

The MoD has ordered 280 M1A1M tanks. 140 of these are confirmed to arrive in the fall of 2010. Probably the other 140 M1A1Ms will arrive in the fall of 2010 as well, although this is not confirmed.

The IA has taken a group of capable tank operators from the 9th tracked mechanized Iraqi Army Division (which has 72 T55 Tanks and over 110 T72 Tanks), and begun training them with US M1A1 tanks and US instructors. This will enable the IA to field their M1A1M tanks and their support equipment as soon as they arrive.

The Iraqi MoD seems okay with buying Israeli weapons, although they don't advertise it.

More more details on the Defence Solutions proposal (with the MoD has "NOT" signed of on), you can see the comment section of this article:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/01/iraqi_security_force_23.php

 

[Feanor]

So is this an option being currently considered by the MoD?

 

[anan]

I would refer you to the comment section for this article:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/01/iraqi_security_force_23.php

I certainly hope MoD is not considering it. This proposal was first proposed to the MoD in 2005. Despite a lot of padding for kickbacks, it was rejected then. Now this same company is trying to push it again. I think the Minister of Defense knows its a scam.

In any case, there aren't 2,000 used T72s available for upgrade on the market. What are everyone's thoughts on what tanks might best suit the IA?

What is the life cycle cost of an M1A1M tank? Its main competitor tanks? I have heard many estimates of tank life cycle costs, so I would be interested in all of your perspectives.

I think the IA will keep the M1A1M tank as its top of the line armor. However, the IA could use a cheaper refurbished upgraded used tank. What options does the IA have?

A question on the 280 M1A1M tanks: Will the IA create 6 M1A1 tracked mechanized brigades with them, or 3 M1A1M armored brigades with them?

Each tracked IA heavy division is likely to have 3 tracked heavy brigades and one wheeled mechanized lightly armored cavalry brigade. The M1A1s could fill two tracked mechanized divisions or one tank armored division. My best conjecture--and it is a conjecture--is that the IA will create 2 tracked mechanized divisions with the 280 M1A1M tanks.

 

[Feanor]

I'm sure there are 2000 T-72s on the market. However I suspect that one would have to delve into Russian stockpiles to get that many. The article however said up to 2000. I.e. it could turn out to be another 100 of them. Or 50 of them. Donated for a nominal fee by ex-WarPac militaries.

 

[eckherl]

Moderator, should we have one thread to discuss the ISF (Iraqi Security Forces ), their inventory of weapons, and their future procurement of weapons?

The report on the 2000 T72s is bogus as per MNF-I (Multinational Forces Iraq) and Iraqi PM Maliki's office. As best we know, the IA currently plans 210 T72 Tanks (although more are possible.) Defence Solutions is trying to sell this corrupt overpriced deal to the MoD (Ministry of Defense.) I hope for Iraq's sake that they fail.

The best source for data on the ISF and their weapons procurement is:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
http://www.longwarjournal.org/multimedia/OOBpage15-Equipment.pdf

The MoD has ordered 280 M1A1M tanks. 140 of these are confirmed to arrive in the fall of 2010. Probably the other 140 M1A1Ms will arrive in the fall of 2010 as well, although this is not confirmed.

The IA has taken a group of capable tank operators from the 9th tracked mechanized Iraqi Army Division (which has 72 T55 Tanks and over 110 T72 Tanks), and begun training them with US M1A1 tanks and US instructors. This will enable the IA to field their M1A1M tanks and their support equipment as soon as they arrive.

The Iraqi MoD seems okay with buying Israeli weapons, although they don't advertise it.

More more details on the Defence Solutions proposal (with the MoD has "NOT" signed of on), you can see the comment section of this article:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/01/iraqi_security_force_23.php

Thats what happens when folks mis interpet a article like the one first posted on this thread, the whole article doesn`t say 2,000 T-72s that part is misleading, 2,000 is possibly a Iraqi long term goal for future military posture. Take these articles with a grain of salt due to alot of this type of information being classified, but yes Fort Knox is quite busy lately.

 

[ROCK45]

Tank Threat

Sorry for the basic question but if Iraq bought this upgraded T-72M1 or the Polish option would it's FCS give it an edge in battle against a Iranian or Syrian T-72/T-55?

If the difference isn't that great wouldn't going with a different option be money better spent?

Thanks

 

[eckherl]

Sorry for the basic question but if Iraq bought this upgraded T-72M1 or the Polish option would it's FCS give it an edge in battle against a Iranian or Syrian T-72/T-55?

If the difference isn't that great wouldn't going with a different option be money better spent?

Thanks

There is no reason why they cannot get a better FCS and armor add on package to make them on par or better with current Iranian T-72 series, the Syrian tanks are in bad shape with the majority of them being plain jane T-72 models. Eastern European countries are offering them up at bargain prices, especially with everyone down sizing, including the Russians. @anan brought up a interesting point with Iraq looking at Israels defense industry, could we see possible M-60 and T-72 upgrades from them in regards to armor add on kits.:unknown

 

[ROCK45]

Kits

Thanks eckherl

The Israeli kits look interesting they can do some really good stuff. I know it's a tank thread but Israel has A/B ACE upgraded Vipers to if Iraq and Israel are going to business with each other.

Wouldn't Iraq catch a little hxll for dealing with the Israeli's? I guess stranger things have happened.

Never been impressed with the Syrian armed forces in general but don't know a lot about Iran's armor units. I remember Iran having some ERA add on but are more of their tanks T-55s or T-72s?

 

[eckherl]

Thanks eckherl

The Israeli kits look interesting they can do some really good stuff. I know it's a tank thread but Israel has A/B ACE upgraded Vipers to if Iraq and Israel are going to business with each other.

Wouldn't Iraq catch a little hxll for dealing with the Israeli's? I guess stranger things have happened.

Never been impressed with the Syrian armed forces in general but don't know a lot about Iran's armor units. I remember Iran having some ERA add on but are more of their tanks T-55s or T-72s?

Both countries procurement departments could use back channels by making it look like U.S involvement if needed.

Irans ERA package designs come from both China and Russia and they do manufacture ERA packages inside their country, they have a large amount of both tanks including Type 59s with the emphasis going to T-72 for upgrades and manufacture. Iran is also responsible for upgrading North Korean armor.