Pakistan Navy will buy U-214

[Firn]

The Underwater Missile most certainly uses the supercavitating phenomenon.

 

[BilalK]

Regarding the possibility of PN acquiring the MEKO.

For at least a few years the PN officially said it required 4 multi-mission frigates that were larger and more advanced/capable than the F-22P. Given the budget of the PN, I think we can assume they would be looking at a medium-weight displacement - 3500~4000 tonnes. At least 2 of the 4 ships will be built in Pakistan, and this would set up the possibility for later batches of the same type - hence a feasible long-term acquisition plan can be assumed. After the U214 deal, I think further commercial naval transactions between Pakistan and TKMS is definitely possible.

Regarding the weapon-systems. I am not fully sure, but I believe the PN will be inclined towards following a pattern laid out by the Turkish Navy. There is growing defence cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan, and many believe the U214 deal was in fact a joint order between the Turkish and Pakistani Navies. After the near closing of MILGEM, one should also account for a medium-displacement multi-mission FFG from Turkey as a potential option, no doubt. If not those FFGs, then at least more corvettes and FACs.

From what Turkish defence enthusiasts have said - from real defence articles - future Turkish vessels may be equipped with RBS-15Mk3 AShM...or a local Turkish variant. In the ASW area, the same sources reported that Turkey is developing a lightweight torpedo using technology from the South Korean K745 Blue Shark system. So this may shed light on potential future systems in PN.

 

[falconlover81]

Future looks good for the PN

BilalK the future indeed looks good for the PN by the induction of world class ships like the MEKO series and U-214 submarines but that would not be before 2015 so that means these are long term projects like the MILGEM which would take 10 years to complete as claimed by a turkish official.The thing that has me worried is we are not doing enough to fill the gap till then the only procurement
which will be used as a stop gap is the F-22P other than that i don't think we have anything substantial on the table.The OHP's are a waiting game I haven't
heard any updated news on that and what happened to the elli class frigates which were to be procured from the greek navy.What do u think guys?

 

[falconlover81]

Difference between TF-100 and MILGEM

Guys one more thing which i forgot to write in my previous post is the question about the difference between TF-100 and the MILGEM.Do these two names represent the same project or do they represent two distinct projects.Clarification would be appreciated.cheers

 

[BilalK]

Guys one more thing which i forgot to write in my previous post is the question about the difference between TF-100 and the MILGEM.Do these two names represent the same project or do they represent two distinct projects.Clarification would be appreciated.cheers

TF-100 and MILGEM are different programs, and set quite a bit apart. As you know the MILGEM is a corvette, and the TF-100 is a medium-displacement multi-mission frigate. As per Turkish defence enthusiasts, the TF-100 would be launched in 2024. So if the PN is interested in the project, then it's clearly something for the long-term - perhaps post 2030. The same applies to the MILGEM, U214s and potentially MEKO FFGs - we won't be seeing desired numbers until after 2020.

If anything, what we're seeing is the foundations in terms of investment and industry to get naval modernization rolling. The emphasis PN is putting new combatants, it is also putting into acquiring contemporary and future weapon & defence systems.

So to answer your question, yes the F-22P is a stopgap, and we may see another 4 - probably heavier & upgraded versions. The PN is also trying to acquire used corvettes and frigates where it possibly can. It sought the OHPs, and those now seem unlikely. With the recent jump in cooperation with Germany, the PN might try acquiring Bremen Class FFGs when they become available...or other used ships in NATO. Another possibility - while a stretch - is to acquire new-built MEKO or Type-054 frigates on fast-track...which would mean direct imports.

 

[jupiter2006]

TF-100 and MILGEM are different programs, and set quite a bit apart. As you know the MILGEM is a corvette, and the TF-100 is a medium-displacement multi-mission frigate. As per Turkish defence enthusiasts, the TF-100 would be launched in 2024. So if the PN is interested in the project, then it's clearly something for the long-term - perhaps post 2030. The same applies to the MILGEM, U214s and potentially MEKO FFGs - we won't be seeing desired numbers until after 2020.

If anything, what we're seeing is the foundations in terms of investment and industry to get naval modernization rolling. The emphasis PN is putting new combatants, it is also putting into acquiring contemporary and future weapon & defence systems.

So to answer your question, yes the F-22P is a stopgap, and we may see another 4 - probably heavier & upgraded versions. The PN is also trying to acquire used corvettes and frigates where it possibly can. It sought the OHPs, and those now seem unlikely. With the recent jump in cooperation with Germany, the PN might try acquiring Bremen Class FFGs when they become available...or other used ships in NATO. Another possibility - while a stretch - is to acquire new-built MEKO or Type-054 frigates on fast-track...which would mean direct imports.

What happend to the story about Pakistan is getting 4 frigate from Greece?

Pakistan to acquire four frigates from Greece : PM
'Pakistan Times' Special Correspondent

ATHENS (Greece): Greece will provide 4 frigates for the Pakistan Navy, two of which will be delivered this year, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said Monday.

The two countries are looking forward to stronger ties in defence and security related matters and have agreed on the deal, Prime Minister Aziz told the media team accompanying him on his four-nation visit.

Without giving details of the deal, he said Pakistan was acquiring used frigates.

He said two frigates would be delivered this year and the other two in 2007.The Hellenic Navy uses Elli class frigates and the same would be provided to Pakistan.

 

[jupiter2006]

TF-100 and MILGEM are different programs, and set quite a bit apart. As you know the MILGEM is a corvette, and the TF-100 is a medium-displacement multi-mission frigate. As per Turkish defence enthusiasts, the TF-100 would be launched in 2024. So if the PN is interested in the project, then it's clearly something for the long-term - perhaps post 2030. The same applies to the MILGEM, U214s and potentially MEKO FFGs - we won't be seeing desired numbers until after 2020.

If anything, what we're seeing is the foundations in terms of investment and industry to get naval modernization rolling. The emphasis PN is putting new combatants, it is also putting into acquiring contemporary and future weapon & defence systems.

So to answer your question, yes the F-22P is a stopgap, and we may see another 4 - probably heavier & upgraded versions. The PN is also trying to acquire used corvettes and frigates where it possibly can. It sought the OHPs, and those now seem unlikely. With the recent jump in cooperation with Germany, the PN might try acquiring Bremen Class FFGs when they become available...or other used ships in NATO. Another possibility - while a stretch - is to acquire new-built MEKO or Type-054 frigates on fast-track...which would mean direct imports.

Pakistan is negotiating for 2-3 Surplus Type 23 frigates from UK for stop gap purpose, these ships should be delivered sometime in 2009. Pakistan also resquested for 6 OHP from USA.




What happend to the story about Pakistan getting 4 frigates from Greece?

Pakistan to acquire four frigates from Greece : PM
'Pakistan Times' Special Correspondent

ATHENS (Greece): Greece will provide 4 frigates for the Pakistan Navy, two of which will be delivered this year, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said Monday.

The two countries are looking forward to stronger ties in defence and security related matters and have agreed on the deal, Prime Minister Aziz told the media team accompanying him on his four-nation visit.

Without giving details of the deal, he said Pakistan was acquiring used frigates.

He said two frigates would be delivered this year and the other two in 2007.The Hellenic Navy uses Elli class frigates and the same would be provided to Pakistan.

 

[harryriedl]

What is negotiating for 2-3 Surplus Type 23 frigates from UK for stop gap purpose, these ships should be delivered sometime in 2009. Pakistan also resquested for 6 OHP from USA.




What happend to the story about Pakistan getting 4 frigates from Greece?

your not going to get any more t-23 RN aren't selling they increased the decomming date for the ships the only things the RN is likely to sell is LSL or T-42 B2. PN might get an OHP due the LCS issues they might be part of USN for longer than predicted.
would any used MEKO's be for sale or any other used frigates. I struggling to think of any.

 

[kato]

I struggling to think of any.

Halfway modern ones? Chinese Type 051 Luda I DDGs, OHPs, Type 42s and those four Greek Ellis that won't be modernized are the only things on the market in the next 5 years or so (before FREMM and F125 replace older frigates).
At most something from the Japanese Reserve Fleets, i.e. Hatsuyuki DDs, but that's pretty much not a political option i'd say.

Iirc that deal for the Ellis fell through btw (talks were only for 2 frigates btw). Pakistan previously tried for Type 23 and lost to Chile and for Wielingen light frigates to Bulgaria for a variety of reasons.

 

[nero]

Allah_O_AKBAR

IDAS was on display during the ideas 2008 and it is very much likely that the deal is on the table along with the sub deal. These missiles if acquired will greatly enhance the capabilities of the U-214.

The IDAS can shoot down those P8I poseidons which india has ordered. with the IDAS system the P8I will be easy meat

just check out this link guys, it will cheer you up

Ares Homepage


.

 

[Firn]

IDAS might very well be a breakthrough and alter the way ASW is fought. But to state that it might be able to shoot down an Indian MPA is a bit reductive. Anyway it is a very interesting system and I'm pretty sure that Pakistan wants to acquire it, if possible. Here some food for thougt.

All in all a very interesting system, especially for the an AIP-submarine like the U-212A with very low signatures throughout the spectrums (perhaps bar the blue-green visible one). The specifc mode of operation has great merits (very fast response time, relative simple), still wonder to which extent it is possible to:


(i) add a silent "booster" in the form of a compact electro engine, compact batteries and a low-signature propellor to the rocket, enabling it to cruise a couple of clicks or stay afloat for a longer period of time. This would allow the U-boat to attack non-critical targets with the launch signature of the rocket well away from it.

(ii) detach a whole launch container connected with an additional fibre optic cable to a specific location. This would enable an U-boat laying in ambush to engage 4 targets while being silent with great accuracy and precision. By doing so it also gets an accurate IR picture of the surrounding areas.

But already without such capabilities the IDAS is a game-changer as every ASW helicopter or patrol aircraft will be in grave danger in the larger vicinity of a submarine. When a ASW helicopter probes the waters too closely it is virtually helpless against the fast IR-guided missile. Although it gives away the rough position of the sub to supporting assets the sub is not easily and speedily hunted unless one can launch VL-ASROCS. The relative short/medium range of them forces them to fire from well within the torpedo envelop of the sub or perhaps also of IDAS.


Thoughts:

A common tactic might thus be to launch a pair of IDAS, one to destroy the immediate thread, the second one to get a clear picture of the surrounding air- and seaspace and to attack targets of interest, like a second ASW helicopter, a maritime patrol aircraft, ship or UUV. Additional missiles could be than be quickly launched if the need dictates it. Especially fleets moving at high speed employ a large variety of air-based assets to rapidly search the area ahead. In this case a submarine might fire a considerable volume (WCS permitting) of IDAS to wipe a large part of the dippers out of sky or off the decks. So if you give them a flaming datum, it should be a red hot one...

Ships might also be targeted by the heavy torpedos, all while the sub changes position. Even the mere possibility of such a danger might induce the enemy ships to backpedal, keeping their assets away from the zone of the sub. Enemy submarines might actually prove to be the most dangerous assets, as the underwater launch signature too should be audible over long distances. However the relative low speed of a torpedo allows the submarine more time for evasive actions. And a VLO-sub as the U-212A would also be very hard to detect by a passive torpedo, forcing it to likely use active homing which gives the topedo and the presence of an enemy sub away.

Prelaid mines might also provide protection and denial potential against enemy assets. Torpedo defense systems employing relative small and compact decoys form also excellent layers of defense for the evading sub, especially if it a LO one.

Additional thougths

All in all the IDAS SSAM holds every flying ASW asset at great risk. Even if a highly sensitive magnetic anomaly detector or/and a LIDAR is used for the the fine search after an observed IDAS strike the sound waves emitted from the relative low-flying assets now in use will warn the submarine. It also gives it more than a rough bearing when the aircraft is close enough to possibly detect it by MAD or LIDAR. Being so close it becomes virtually defenseless against the SSAM, reducing the time-of-flight to at most 10 sec. Such a danger might greatly influence the procedures of the OPFOR.

This aggressive defense is of course determined by the tactical situation and the mission of the submarine. A U-212A cruising at low speed at around 300m is depending on the acoustic (and visual) properties of the layers very very hard to spot by hydrophones. Its magnetic signature is also very very low compared to an cold-war SSN, drastically reducing the range at which it can be acquired. Even the AN/ASQ-233 - with a possible increase in sensitivity by a factor of 50 or 30db should only be able to detect at most at a couple of hundred meters under favorable conditions. A blue-green LIDAR might get employed at higher altitudes, reducing the down-wash and the thus the acoustic signature but the ability to penetrate thicker layers of waters is hard to achieve.

Given the increased dangers of it UUV, USW and UAV might become very important in ASW warfare.

 

[SURB]

Well i listened German Foreign minister to Pakistan on TV saying that U214 submarines deal will be signed as soon as the german parliment solves the issue of delivering these submarines to pakistan.
WHAT HELP IT CAN OFFER TO PN IF it can't strike down p8l ..........because in future for pakistani subs P8I will be a nightmare.
I think in war scenarios u214 will have to be accompanied by F22 frigade with FM90 SAM (having a range of 15km).

 

[tphuang]

Well i listened German Foreign minister to Pakistan on TV saying that U214 submarines deal will be signed as soon as the german parliment solves the issue of delivering these submarines to pakistan.
WHAT HELP IT CAN OFFER TO PN IF it can't strike down p8l ..........because in future for pakistani subs P8I will be a nightmare.
I think in war scenarios u214 will have to be accompanied by F22 frigade with FM90 SAM (having a range of 15km).

in an war scenario, you don't want anyone to know the proximity of your U-214, since that would give away its location. F-22 frigate can't protect it from aerial assets anyhow.

 

[SURB]

F-22 frigate can't protect it from aerial assets anyhow.

but how... it has got the range to counter a posideon .........(almost reaching it's ceiling).
It's purposeless to have a SAM on board if it can't help to the defend.
IF it's true i want some explanation.:sick
And how the proximity to a F22 frigate will disclose the position of a U214 submarine?:eek

 

[tphuang]

but how... it has got the range to counter a posideon .........(almost reaching it's ceiling).
It's purposeless to have a SAM on board if it can't help to the defend.
IF it's true i want some explanation.:sick
And how the proximity to a F22 frigate will disclose the position of a U214 submarine?:eek

it doesn't, it's used in PLAN as a RAM/barak type close in missile defense system. It's not designed to do much more. Ever notice how you have the 30 mm CIWS on one side and FM-90N on the other side? That's because there is only one FCR on F-22P, so FM-90N can only counter missiles from one side.

If people know your U-214 is close to F-22P, then that's a much smaller radius that the opposing ASW effort have to search through. Totally defeats the purpose of submarines.

 

[SURB]

well PN has got it's options to chose and buy submarines......they had French on one side their reliable seller of subs...but this time they chosen Germans......i don't know if this was a mistake.....because German parliment is not
helping the deal go through, and PN can't weight for decades.
To put it simply like that PN should have an alternative plan too.
What if they have went for other subs too....from any of the top names
....for me these are,

1.TYPE 214(already under observation)
2.LADA Class(if russians willing to sell)
3.SCORPENE Class
4.SORYU Class
5.TYPE041 YUAN Class
i am no expert in short listing subs for PN as options.
IF ANY ONE SHOWS HIS/HER LIST OR CORRECTS MINE, I WILL SURELY BE MORE THAN HAPPY.
and there was also a marlin class which were supposed to manufactured by France.
HAS PN SHOWN ANY INTEREST IN MARLIN SUBS?

 

[aaaditya]

well PN has got it's options to chose and buy submarines......they had French on one side their reliable seller of subs...but this time they chosen Germans......i don't know if this was a mistake.....because German parliment is not
helping the deal go through, and PN can't weight for decades.
To put it simply like that PN should have an alternative plan too.
What if they have went for other subs too....from any of the top names
....for me these are,

1.TYPE 214(already under observation)
2.LADA Class(if russians willing to sell)
3.SCORPENE Class
4.SORYU Class
5.TYPE041 YUAN Class
i am no expert in short listing subs for PN as options.
IF ANY ONE SHOWS HIS/HER LIST OR CORRECTS MINE, I WILL SURELY BE MORE THAN HAPPY.
and there was also a marlin class which were supposed to manufactured by France.
HAS PN SHOWN ANY INTEREST IN MARLIN SUBS?

isn't the soryu class japanese design,if so,then i doubt if japan would sell it,japanese arms are intended only for their domestic market and not the international market,

 

[SURB]

isn't the soryu class japanese design,if so,then i doubt if japan would sell it,japanese arms are intended only for their domestic market and not the international market,

Well then reduce the shopping list to four options only,since merlin does not exists as an option to-date.

 

[SURB]

Can PN mount IDAS on AGOSTA 90B too?,if they plan to get it with U214 Subs.
(Keeping in mind that the germans launched the missile from torpedo tube).

 

[SURB]

There are still some speculations about they marlin and U214 deal..... Is that true the French offered PN some help in developing their own nuclear sub if they opt to go for marlin subs instead of U214.(i mean they will introduce some of the features of Barracuda class nuclear subs in marlin submarines required by PN.)
And every body knows PN can't buy nuclear subs form anybody they have to develop them these on their own.