F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
If the IADS is a true network, then the threat areas of various systems will overlap quite profusely, with multiple redundancy in key areas. There will also be radar coverage of all, or almost all, of the airspace in question. A properly layered IADS, on wartime footing, with multiple airborne assets, even when it's a generation behind in terms of fighters, can still do a lot to stop or make trouble for a penetration strike. The very fact that it exists already means that your mission has to be planned very carefully.
In a purely legacy network, I would say you are right... but all that changes with our stealth assets.

For example, if a GBAD has a low-level detection range of 50 miles for legacy aircraft, then it's stealth detection range is about 5-10 miles. If these assets are placed 50 miles apart in order to have 100% overlap in a legacy environment, then there is an approximate 30mile corridor between them for stealth assets to exploit. Even if the missiles get launched, they will have a very difficult, if not impossible, time locking onto the stealth asset due to it's reduced RCS.

Just look at GW1 and the success of the F-117. Even the F-35 has a much better RCS than the F-117.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
I have to go, so I'll make this quick:
1. Anytime you use SAR, and illuminate a SAM/AAA site, it sees the full emition, not some "fleeting EM source". If the SAM/AAA is well camofloged, then the SAR may not even pick it up. If it does pick it up, it may not be able to recognise it. In all these cases, the combo of the better SAR of the F-35, the EOTS, and the DAS makes unexpected GBAD less likely.

2. As far as the DAS being virtually the same as MAWS, the DAS is much better. The DAS provides not only launch and tracking but also IIR imagery of all air and ground targets. It enables over the shoulder AIM shots without having to use the HMD. Check this pdf for some nice SAR and DAS imagery from the F-35.

3. All the features for the F-35 are paid for and WILL happen. Upgrades for the F-22 are NOT PAID for and have been trimmed back for even the ones that they have planned on.

4. The difference between the F-22 and F-35's RCS, when compared to legacy systems, is very small.
 

willur

New Member
wow, that is the first time someone I have heard some rational reasonoing for the JSF and now better understand an area I am not familar with cheers GF0012 but these people will still talk about the F22.......cheers mate
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
When a platform makes an SAR scan it generates a very narrow EM beam for ~2 seconds. What that means is the only thing that will detect the active SAR is the unit being painted, and they only have a couple of seconds to do it. Thus the (lets say) SAM battery may detect a fleeting EM source, which it can not detect or track on radar, and in a matter of seconds to minuets a weapon will impact. Assuming the SAM battery has very capable ESM. Thus in real terms the F-22A betrays nothing by using SAR, except giving the crew the option to abandon their posts and run.
But the missile fired at the SAM unit, itself can be engaged and shot down, and a modern IADS will have no problems intercepting it. If it also happened to have caught the short EM burst, it can then put 2+2 together, and at least have more or less confirmed detection of inbound hostiles.

The other thing is that in a properly done IADS, the only permanently hot radars will be general airspace control radars, and only when a threat is detected will the SAMs actually go hot and start searching for targets. Even the Georgian SAMs (SA-11) during the recent war (which is hardly an exemplary ADS employment) operated in this manner. An S-300P battery can go from march (cold) to hot in 5 minutes. This includes time to set up the unit. It would be reasonable to assume that if it's already deployed, and just needs to flip the switch, it could go from hot to cold in notably less time. The Buk M1 proved it had the capability also. I think it's safe to assume that many of the SAMs currently being actively proliferated around the world are capable of this type of employment, which immediately changes the game for the penetrating platform. It doesn't know where the GBAD is until the GBAD is ready to open up on it, and thus can't judge threat levels.

It seems to me that most of the scenarios being discussed here are against an inferior opponent. I understand the contextual relevance, but it's hardly worthwhile to analyze a situation where the opponent is inherently inferior in capability. We all know the USA can bomb third world countries into sawdust. If we are trying to truly see where the limits of the F-35 vs the F-22 are in penetration, then we have to push them both to the limit, to the point where their differences in signature management, RCS, etc. become relevant. Against a Syria-level IADS either one will do just as well, fly in, drop the payload, and fly out without anyone noticing.

EO DAS is actually a development of the F-22A's MAWS, it just provides the ability to project IIR imagery to the pilot and target A2A missiles. Therefore in this scenario, dealing with GBAD threats, EO DAS will only provide a slight improvement over the MAWS. IF the GBAD system itself is close enough for the EO DAS to see they your in trouble, and if there is a missile launch the only difference is the pilot will be able to see an IIR image of it (the MAWS will still provide a threat bearing). The HMD is planed to be integrated on the F-22A in time. The only real difference in 2020 SA will be the EOTS, which will not provide any real additional benefits over SAR when targeting J series weapons.
Except that an IADS does not consist solely of GBAD. It also includes airborne components. So the EO-DAS still has significance in that regard. The true objection here should be that once you're down to fighting the enemy, instead of a stealthy penetration, you've already defeated the whole point of a VLO platform.

In a purely legacy network, I would say you are right... but all that changes with our stealth assets.

For example, if a GBAD has a low-level detection range of 50 miles for legacy aircraft, then it's stealth detection range is about 5-10 miles. If these assets are placed 50 miles apart in order to have 100% overlap in a legacy environment, then there is an approximate 30mile corridor between them for stealth assets to exploit. Even if the missiles get launched, they will have a very difficult, if not impossible, time locking onto the stealth asset due to it's reduced RCS.
The SAMs will be cold, and their locations not known if the IADS is operating on wartime footing. Being mobile they can change locations every 3-6 hours if need be to avoid sattelites spotting them. The corridors may exist, but you don't know where they are. You also have air-space control radars, and AEW&C which may not be able to provide targetting data on a VLO target, but is likely to provide detection info at least, which would then enable all the SAMs around the area where hostiles were detected to go hot in unexpected places. They could go hot for no more then a minute, to make sure they don't have targetting data (or take a shot off if they do) and then go cold again and relocate immediately. This would also enable AD fighters to vector in at least an approximate intercept, if the VLO targets are detected. If the AD fighters are datalinked to the SAMs, then we have a situation where the pentrating platforms are in for a very messy penetration.

Just look at GW1 and the success of the F-117. Even the F-35 has a much better RCS than the F-117.
The Iraqi IADS was not operated competently. Nor was it's airborne component worth the cost of gas in their fuel tanks. ;) Again bombing third world countries into sawdust, with complete capability overmatch, is not true test of capability.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The SAMs will be cold, and their locations not known if the IADS is operating on wartime footing. Being mobile they can change locations every 3-6 hours if need be to avoid sattelites spotting them. The corridors may exist, but you don't know where they are. You also have air-space control radars, and AEW&C which may not be able to provide targetting data on a VLO target, but is likely to provide detection info at least, which would then enable all the SAMs around the area where hostiles were detected to go hot in unexpected places. They could go hot for no more then a minute, to make sure they don't have targetting data (or take a shot off if they do) and then go cold again and relocate immediately. This would also enable AD fighters to vector in at least an approximate intercept, if the VLO targets are detected. If the AD fighters are datalinked to the SAMs, then we have a situation where the pentrating platforms are in for a very messy penetration.
A couple of things are going to happen in this scenario:

1. The air package may contain decoys. We used them in both gulf wars. The USAF just approved LRIP for the new MALD. It has a range of over 500 miles and can be carried by the first wave and launched ahead to entice the enemy to activate the search and targeting radars.

2. By moving your mobile SAMs around a lot, you will make a very good, and hot, target that will be picked up nicely by high-altitude assets.

3. The new HARM upgrade has a MMW seeker to enable targeting and engagement of SAMs & AAA that have turned off their radars. Not only that, but it will be able to target the control vehicle, not just the radar antenna.

4. JDRADM will probably be IOC within a few years of the F-35 going into squadron level service. The JDRADM will be both a AIM and a HARM. It will have a tri-mode seeker that will be able to be carried internally in the F-35 and F-22. If it sticks to a 7-8 inch folding-fin body, then they should be able to carry 10 internally in the F-22 and at least 8 internally in the F-35.

5. The newer ECMs in the F-22 and F-35 can geo-locate an emitter in a matter of seconds.... If an emitter lights up, it’s location WILL be known.

6. Any enemy air-assets in the area can be engaged, or not, at the discretion of our VLO assets. Any airports are likely to be targeting early on by our best assets, ie B-2s and stealthy cruise missiles.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I know I'm going to catch hell for posting this, but Dr Kopp has recently weighed in on the matter of the F-35's stealth characteristics. He's done some actual RCS modeling and has posted his analysis here,

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-01.html

Like him or hate him, he does appear to know what he's talking about.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmm. it looks like asumptions drawn on the basis of a photo comparision and speculative knowledge. I am no expert on stealth so I will accept the results of airframe testing over asumptions drawn in this manner, particualry given Dr Kopps noted bias.

I doubt he ahs access to the inforamtion required to make a true valued judgement and was not aware that being a mobile phone engineer provided the expertise in this regard.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Kopp's an idiot.

Pray tell, where did he get a production F-35 and a radar test stand from???

In other words, he just made it up.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Kopp's an idiot.

Pray tell, where did he get a production F-35 and a radar test stand from???

In other words, he just made it up.
Hmm, whatever his drawbacks, I wouldn't put 'idiot' amongst them. Misinformed? Perhaps. Lacking complete data? Sure.

He did not use a production aircraft. He built a CAD model of the parts of the aircraft using open source imagery and ran RCS computer simulations against them

Is this precise? Of course not. But, given its limitations, it is still an interesting analysis. Since shape is the primary determinant in final RCS, and we do have pictures of near production aircraft to draw from, I find it hard to completely discount his analysis.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmm. it looks like asumptions drawn on the basis of a photo comparision and speculative knowledge. I am no expert on stealth so I will accept the results of airframe testing over asumptions drawn in this manner, particualry given Dr Kopps noted bias.

I doubt he ahs access to the inforamtion required to make a true valued judgement and was not aware that being a mobile phone engineer provided the expertise in this regard.
I'm sure he doesn't. But the results of airframe testing are classified. This is the only open source analysis I'm aware of.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I'm sure he doesn't. But the results of airframe testing are classified. This is the only open source analysis I'm aware of.
His results must be very approximate since he does not have access to F-35 data -- however we already "know" that F-35 is less stealthy* that F-22 -- one order of magnitude has often been qouted (a factor 10). This in spite of F-35 being one generation after F-22.

So, if you take into account the huge uncertainties in his estimates, what's new here?

*edit: with "stealth" above I refer strictly to RCS, not other types of stealth, sorry about the poor wording

V
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Sorry... he has bee soooo disproved over the years that I still classify him as an idiot.

The whole "Can't climb, can't turn & can't run" claims came from off-the-cuff analysis such as those of Kopp's ilk.

What you will always see with his papers is that he will give all the "benefit-of-the-doubt" to Russian equipment without knowing any of the classified info about the JSF.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
His results must be very approximate since he does not have access to F-35 data -- however we already "know" that F-35 is less stealthy* that F-22 -- one order of magnitude has often been qouted (a factor 10). This in spite of F-35 being one generation after F-22.

So, if you take into account the huge uncertainties in his estimates, what's new here?

*edit: with "stealth" above I refer strictly to RCS, not other types of stealth, sorry about the poor wording

V
The quality of this analysis depends, in part, on how accurately he modeled the sections of the F-35 in question. From what i can tell, he felt that, given open source imagery, he could come very close.

He didn't include certain areas of the F-35 which where troublesome from an RCS perspective, and his analysis didn't include edge effects and surface traveling wave effects. So his numbers may actually be optimistic.

I'm not in a position to question his methodology or data, but it appears to raise some interesting issues, IMHO.

What's new to me is that in some circumstances, the F-35 may be little stealthier than a clean, 4th gen fighter.

Edit: His numbers may be optimistic before materials are factored in. However materials do not contribute the lions-share of RCS reduction.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A couple of things are going to happen in this scenario:

1. The air package may contain decoys. We used them in both gulf wars. The USAF just approved LRIP for the new MALD. It has a range of over 500 miles and can be carried by the first wave and launched ahead to entice the enemy to activate the search and targeting radars.
The search radars will already be active, it's the targetting radars that are cold. Secondly they will activate, take the shot, and go cold again relocating in a hurry.

2. By moving your mobile SAMs around a lot, you will make a very good, and hot, target that will be picked up nicely by high-altitude assets.
Please elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean.

3. The new HARM upgrade has a MMW seeker to enable targeting and engagement of SAMs & AAA that have turned off their radars. Not only that, but it will be able to target the control vehicle, not just the radar antenna.
How will it discriminate between a cold SAM unit, and a decoy SAM unit? Remember both sides can use decoys.

4. JDRADM will probably be IOC within a few years of the F-35 going into squadron level service. The JDRADM will be both a AIM and a HARM. It will have a tri-mode seeker that will be able to be carried internally in the F-35 and F-22. If it sticks to a 7-8 inch folding-fin body, then they should be able to carry 10 internally in the F-22 and at least 8 internally in the F-35.
I don't understand the relevance. Please elaborate.

5. The newer ECMs in the F-22 and F-35 can geo-locate an emitter in a matter of seconds.... If an emitter lights up, it’s location WILL be known.
By the time the emitter (targetting radar) lights up it's a little too late. Not to mention after lighting up, it goes cold again, and relocates. So its "known" location isn't much good.

6. Any enemy air-assets in the area can be engaged, or not, at the discretion of our VLO assets. Any airports are likely to be targeting early on by our best assets, ie B-2s and stealthy cruise missiles.
Engaging those enemy air assets is likely to bring you into range of the GBAD, and if the two act in a complimentary manner, the strike mission becomes comprosmised as you're left fighting your way through the IADS instead of a stealthy penetration strike. Not to mention that once you have engaged, your location (and possibly your target) is more or less known. This allows the defender to send additional assets into the area, and potentially give advance warnings to air-defense assets around the target you're planning to strike. Again, I'm not talking about bombing a third world sh*thole. I'm talking about a power with comparable in theater assets.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
His results must be very approximate since he does not have access to F-35 data -- however we already "know" that F-35 is less stealthy* that F-22 -- one order of magnitude has often been qouted (a factor 10). This in spite of F-35 being one generation after F-22.
Bearing in mind the difference between a -30 decibels and a -40 decibels frontal RCS is like the difference between a pen ball point and a pin head...

While the F-35 may have a higher frontal RCS despite having access to more advanced RAM this is not indicative of a straight line relationship. The F-35 RAM is designed to be cheaper to maintain and also the compromises of its "smaller can with more beer" design mean it isn't shaped as well. The later is what gets Dr Kopp so excited.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
He's not the only one who's said that about the F-35.
Yeah sure and like the other's he is just as wrong. The F-35 can manoeuvre in air combat if it has too but it doesn’t. With its unique within visual range (WVR) all round tracking and engagement system it just shoots missiles at anyone including 180 degrees off the boresight up and down so it doesn’t have to turn and climb. As to running, no one runs better than the F-35 because it keeps its vector and doesn’t have to give up any energy to manoeuvre. If the F-35 was being built with 1960s systems it would be in trouble. But it isn’t and all this argument exposes is the ignorance or air combat Ludditism of its critics.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The quality of this analysis depends, in part, on how accurately he modeled the sections of the F-35 in question. From what i can tell, he felt that, given open source imagery, he could come very close.

He didn't include certain areas of the F-35 which where troublesome from an RCS perspective, and his analysis didn't include edge effects and surface traveling wave effects. So his numbers may actually be optimistic.

I'm not in a position to question his methodology or data, but it appears to raise some interesting issues, IMHO.

What's new to me is that in some circumstances, the F-35 may be little stealthier than a clean, 4th gen fighter.
My whole point to his idiocy is that without having any REAL information about the RCS, ECM, and EW of the JSF, he proposes that the JSF cannot penetrate modern SAM environments.

He has shown his bias against the F-35 by making claims like the JSF being shot down by Russian fighters in a head-on engagement despite this paper's admitting a forward VLO.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Please elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean.
I believe what Spudman meant in the following quote

2. By moving your mobile SAMs around a lot, you will make a very good, and hot, target that will be picked up nicely by high-altitude assets.
Was that by frequently moving mobile SAM units, their engines, machinery, etc will be hot/have a higher then normal thermal signature vs. when immobile.

That thermal signature could potentially be detected by recon satellites, UAVs, recon aircraft, etc etc. Thus potentially exposing the SAM units to detection via a heat signature, while trying to minimize detection via ground scanning radar, photo recon, etc.

-Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The JSF CAN penetrate modern SAM environments. I think that can't be debated with. The question is how good at it is it? And by modern SAM environment, what exactly are we talking about? A stealthy penetration, with a subsequent landing on the Red Square -Cessna-style? There are very different kinds of modern SAM environments, from Syria with it's antiquated junk, to the Taiwan straight, or the Moscow MD with multiple redundant coverage, ample air support, and density that makes avoiding the threat zones impossible.

EDIT: Thanks for clarifying. Will a potential JSF or F-22 penetration strike be flying low enough to use thermal vision equipment to detect individual SAMs? I also know there is thermal-concealing camo netting like the Nakidka kit design for the T-72B2 Rogatka. How effective would it be at concealing say a running truck engine?
 
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