Russia helps China build new aircraft carrier

[Blitzo]

I would expect that China would want a similar carrier system like the US. The two militaries are getting more symmetrical by the year (exaggeration of course, but there are quite a few counterparts that China which parallels the US. Eventually a CATOBAR carrier will be made I think.

 

[wp2000]

Yes, many signs point out that China actually is aiming for building more than one carrier, and they are aiming for steam catpult system, fixed wing AWACS(won't show up with the first carrier).
That's why I said they are aiming very high for the first step.

 

[dragonfire]

In my humble opinion China will plan to build new aircraft carriers having studied different ships from different classes it will also convert the varyag into its first deployed armed operational aircraft carrier, after being deployed as its "training vessel". I think the "serious" consideration in the link below is a prelude to the eventual transformation of the Varyag into the first aircraft carrier of PLAN with the name Shi Lang and assigned pennant number 83. The name Shi Lang alluding to a Ming-Qing Dynasty admiral who conquered Taiwan in 1681 - note the significance

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ng_an_aircraft_carrier_spokesman120016838.php

 

[tatra]

What if ... China has no intention of ever building (a) carrier(s).

Then Varyag and various rumors just serve to spur neighbouring countries in the region and US to spend on beefing up their defences for this eventuality, while PLA/PLAN is actually preparing for an etirely different scenario.

I'm saying this in good fun, so as not to ruin the discussion, but with a serious undertone....

 

[tphuang]

Let's see what the Japanese have to say.
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200812310046.html

BEIJING--China will begin construction of the country's first domestically produced aircraft carriers in Shanghai next year, with an eye to completing two mid-sized carriers by 2015, military and shipbuilding sources said.

Beijing is also expected to complete work on a never-finished former Soviet aircraft carrier moored in the northeastern port of Dalian, to provide training for carrier-based pilots and crew.

The two 50,000- to 60,000-ton carriers will rely on conventional propulsion systems, not nuclear power. They will be assigned to the People's Liberation Army Navy south sea fleet, tasked with patrolling the South China Sea, sources said.

China's carrier ambitions and the build-up of its blue-water fleet have long been of interest to Pacific nations.

National defense ministry spokesman Huang Xueping recently commented that China might build its own aircraft carriers.

However, this is the first time the goals of Chinese naval planners have been clarified in such detail.

If China does bolster its naval combat capabilities by deploying aircraft carriers, it could significantly impact the delicate military balance in East Asia.

According to sources close to Shanghai municipal authorities, one of the world's largest shipbuilding facilities was completed this fall on Changxingdao island at the mouth of the Changjiang river near Shanghai.

One of the four docks there is for construction of the aircraft carriers, they said.

Shipbuilding sources said there are plans to import electrical control parts from Russia and that orders have already been placed with domestic military suppliers.

If procurement goes as planned, the carriers could be completed about two years earlier than planned.

Meanwhile, shipbuilders in Dalian are nearing completion of the 60,000-ton former Soviet Kuznetsov-class carrier Varyag, as a training ship for carrier-borne aircraft pilots and crew. The ship, which was about 70 percent complete at the time of its purchase, was first acquired by a Macao tourism firm in 1998. Since 2002, it has been under construction by a Dalian-based shipbuilder with ties to the navy.

A ranking Chinese navy officer told The Asahi Shimbun that as China increasingly relies on Mideast oil, the aircraft carriers would likely see duty guarding sea lanes in the Malacca Strait and in the Indian Ocean. The officer contended that because the ships will be smaller than U.S. carriers they will not pose a threat.

Ikuo Kayahara, a professor of security studies at Takushoku University and a former research department director at the National Institute for Defense Studies, said China's plan to build aircraft carriers is a "key pillar to enhancing its naval capabilities."

"China hopes to broaden its buffer zone to protect its coasts from a perceived threat from the United States," Kayahara said.(IHT/Asahi: December 31,2008)

This official statement seems to suggest that a concept study is to be launched, unless something has been lost in translation.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-12/23/content_7332411.htm

A AEW program with Y-7, EMAL catapult, SU-33, T-10K trainer and i am sure a land based training facility, all under construction for a medium CATOBAR carrier and you still go with 2 carriers by 2020, a little too optimistic.

These are technologies that will take time to develop, especially when there is no existing ship of the class and all of them are going to be 1st generation and they wont come in cheap.

Could you share any articles or pictures of the Y-7 AEW program?

Except IN has experience in operating a limited CVBG with a STOVL carrier providing the CV element which is to be replaced by a STOBAR carrier for which the pilots have/are received/receiving training, and which is not such a huge jump from STOVL operations.

Other elements will be added and replaced to the two CVBGs as they enter service.

well, there are a couple of thoughts right now. They can build one before 2015 and then two more in a second generational carrier after that. Or the other plan is to build the first two by 2015 as the first generation and then build second generation after that. Any Chinese carrier in the first generation would probably be around the size of Varyag. Remember, they probably studied the ship inside out by now, might have the blue prints to Ul'yanovsk. You have to realize they already have experience building multiple military grade ships in the 20-25K ton class.

As for Y-7 AEW, check this link http://cnair.top81.cn/gallery1.htm

China seems to be in no urgency to deploy a carrier. Specifically using the limited resources China has wisely decided to modernise existing areas where they have extensive experience in.

They know potential conflicts are gonna be fought regional, (Tiawan, Japan, India, etc). Chinese airforce, army, navy and importantly nuclear forces can sufficently deter its neighbours from any mis adventure.

limited resources? China does not lack resources. PLAN has been on a huge build up in the last 5 years if you haven't noticed.

How about using Defencetalk

If your crown jewels are escorting/protecting your carriers, what happens to the rest of the Plan fleet?
I presume there will be more of them, if so how many ?
A 2 carrier fleet will simply eat into all the current assets.

And your point is ? china will have it's first carrier as a full fleged CVBG ?

Crobato explained pretty well. They definitely already have enough ships in SSF to have some for self defense and a carrier group. They are building so many new ships right now, having enough escorts is not going to be a concern either way.

Realistically I can see China operating two CVBG's in the next 20-30 years, similar in size to what the UK and France will eventually field (assuming both end up with two carriers). One CVBG operational, the second in reserve, refit or on its scheduled training cycle .

For China to compete with the US they are going to need to increase military spending by ten fold minimum. This does not take into consideration all the other modernization programs planned for the PLA and airforce, plus the ongoing need to professionalize their military and dramatically reduce numbers. 50 - 60% of China's manpower is still made up of relatively poorly educated troops dispersed throughout the country in pretty grim conditions. They are still funding the transition from a self-defense based standing army focused on border protection and maintaining the old communist hierarchy / ideology to a modern expeditionary warfare organization.

The CVBG basing requirements, maintenance facilities, supply-chain management and domestic industry needed to support CVBG's to match that of the US is a gargantuan and hugely expensive challenge and will take far longer to establish than the actual building of the carriers themselves. A single CVBG requires extensive port facilities, at best you may be able to co-locate two - one deployed, one home based, this will still require major structural improvements to the PRC's existing Naval bases above and beyond what we are seeing in Hinan and eleswhere.

Also not forgetting the purpose of a CVBG is to project power anywhere in the world without the need to rely on a friendly host Government. So China also needs to compliment its planned carriers with a Marine expeditionary warfare group, which in turn needs LST's, LSD's Commando Carriers etc., modern enough to keep up with the Carrier and its escorts. All brings to the table additional costs.

Realistically each CVBG is going to need:

1 x Carrier
2 x Destroyer (AAW)
1 x SSN
2 x Frigates (AEW)
1 - 2 x RAS vessels
Plus if you intend projecting you influence ashore you will need the maritime lift to sustain typically 2200 plus Marines at sea for projected periods based on a single battalion battle group (US MEU).

China also has it's own demons to deal with, the growing disparity between rich and poor, mass migration from rural to urban areas and ever increasing demand for natural resources is going to require the politburo to focus funds on internal issues, including improving the abilities of the PSB and other domestic security agencies. So as the credit crunch continues to bite we could see funds being diverted to controlling internal unrest.

Don't get me wrong I believe the PRC will eventually operate a credible CVBG, but nothing like the ten the US will have by mid-century. Just take the time to look at the specifications of the planned 100, 000T Gerald R Ford Class, 10 of which are planned by 2058, not forgetting the planned MEU's and associated new vessels and hardware.

I presume you don't work here around the wall street like I do, so you don't know how much of an economic black hole US is heading toward. In terms of military expenditure for the navy and such, US will have to downsize in the future regardless of what it desires. You think the current ship shortage and shipbuilding problems in USN is a small problem? It will become much larger problem in the future. At that point, you can go for the Soviet style military spending or act like a democracy and spend on your citizen first. But in terms of maintaining an oversea projection force, I don't think China will ever try to match USN, because it's just not fiscally responsible, even if it ends up with a larger GDP. But I can definitely see 3 to 5 carriers by 2030, it has the economic power to do this. And remember, China builds ships (especially military ships) far cheaper than US, it helps that the domestic shipbuilding industry is still in a good shape.

 

[aaaditya]

Hello Aaaditya, do you have any links as to why the Indian Navy chose that IAC design. I believe an Italian company was assigned this task, supposing that the Soviet/Russian designs would have been readily available to India.?

here buddy,check this link which gives the detailed information on the indian aircraft carrier project.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/ships/future/185-indian-aircraft-carrier.html

the following are some relevant lines from that article:

This last design iteration shows much influence from the Italian Navy's Andrea Dorea Class (currently known as the Cavour Class) aircraft carrier in that there is much sloping of the superstructure and ship sides. The vessel will be powered by four HAL-built General Electric LM 2500 gas turbines driving two shafts. With a 12 to 14º ski-jump, the vessel will have a STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) arrangement on an angled flight deck with two aircraft elevators - one before the island and one after. In the STOBAR arrangement, the aircraft lands on the angled-flight deck and is stopped by arrester wires, of which three will be installed onboard.

The vessel is estimated to carry as many as 30 aircraft on board, with 17 parked in the hanger below. Technical inputs, in respect of the MiG-29K's dimensions, will be provided by Russia which will also assist in the associated design work for aviation facilities such as the flight deck, hangar, aircrafts lifts, ammunition lifts, aircraft launch and recovery systems.

Defense News and Jane's Defence Weekly (JDW) both reported in July/August 2004, that the Ministry of Defence awarded a $30 million contract to Fincantieri's Naval Vessel Business Unit to help prepare concept, design and implementation plans for the vessel. The company will also provide designs to integrate the propulsion system, engine room layouts and overall validation of systems, besides conducting sea trials. DCN International (now dcns) of France and Izar Construcciones Navales (now navantia) of Spain also sent in their bids, however fincantieri spa of Italy was awarded the contract. This is an interesting development, since the contract for an original design study for the vessel was signed with DCNS in 1989. The design & construction of the Italian Navy's cavour class aircraft carrier, reportedly tipped the scales in favour of the Italian shipyard winning the contract. A team of IN and CSL engineers & technicians will work in tandem with their counterparts at Fincantieri in Italy over the next two years to finalise the vessel design, as well as its propulsion systems and main power plants. The company will provide technical assistance during the construction of the vessel and also during sea trials. Naval officials however stated that assistance from Fincantieri will continue until the vessel's commissioning. The hull and landing deck are to be built by larsen and toubro limited.

 

[Salty Dog]

here buddy,check this link which gives the detailed information on the indian aircraft carrier project.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/ships/future/185-indian-aircraft-carrier.html

The design & construction of the Italian Navy's cavour class aircraft carrier, reportedly tipped the scales in favour of the Italian shipyard winning the contract. A team of IN and CSL engineers & technicians will work in tandem with their counterparts at Fincantieri in Italy over the next two years to finalise the vessel design, as well as its propulsion systems and main power plants. The company will provide technical assistance during the construction of the vessel and also during sea trials. Naval officials however stated that assistance from Fincantieri will continue until the vessel's commissioning. The hull and landing deck are to be built by larsen and toubro limited.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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Apart from some of the sexiest warship projects in the world, Fincantieri has the experience of both Italian Navy carrier projects. They also have the contract for the new IN fleet replenishment oiler. IMHO a very smart choice.

 

[Iam]

here buddy,check this link which gives the detailed information on the indian aircraft carrier project.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/ships/future/185-indian-aircraft-carrier.html

Thanks, do you have any pictures of CSL, and what's the current status of the program?, any idea of what escorts these will be using. I read somewhere that IN is already planning on building the next IAC in the 60-70k class?. Is that still on course or is it simply a feasibility study?

 

[riksavage]

Let's see what the Japanese have to say.
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200812310046.html

And remember, China builds ships (especially military ships) far cheaper than US, it helps that the domestic shipbuilding industry is still in a good shape.

Chinese may build ships cheaper, but that doesn't mean the build quality is on a par with western vessels. I recently had the misfortune to go aboard a brand new Chinese built super yacht (90 plus metres) constructed at what was claimed to be their finest shipyard - the build quality was atrocious forcing the owner to move it to Europe for a complete overhaul.

 

[crobato]

What's the brand? Kingship?

The biggest shipyards don't do yachts, and much of the yacht manufacturers in China are joint ventured with US, Australian and European yacht makers as well as Taiwan ones. They have a problem in a shortage of trained labor because the best skilled labor are being soaked up by the big yards.

 

[riksavage]

The bigger yards are making 'super yachts' (90 metres and above). The money generated far exceeds that, which can be generated building much bigger commercial vessels. Plus the waiting lists in Taiwan, Australia, Europe and US are so long billionaires have been forced to look elsewhere. The yacht in question was built at one of China's largest yards, was two years behind schedule and was literally limping its way to Europe due to ongoing mechanical issues.

 

[crobato]

The biggest yards don't do super yachts, and as a matter of fact, super yachts are only a very new phenomenon with the Chinese yacht building industry which is quite separate from the traditional ship building industries. As a matter of fact, we have never seen mega sized yachts being built in any of the major shipyards associated with the Chinese defense industry such as Jiangnan.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jiangnan-sy.htm

"With more than 130 years experience in developing and building various kind of merchant ships, Jiangnan Shipyard has successfully delivered to worldwide shipping market a large variety of highly sophisticated vessels such as liquefied gas carriers, car carriers, crude oil tankers, Panamax bulk carriers, Handymax bulk carriers, Lake suitable bulk carriers, multi-purpose cargo ships, fast feeder container ships etc. And in particular, gas carriers have become one of the major products of the shipyard in the past years. Apart from new building section, Jiangnan Shipyard has specific divisions specializing in manufacturing pressurized tanks liquefied gas carriers, large steel structures for civil architect engineering, variety of mechanical and electrical equipment, nonstandard equipment, pressure containers, port machinery etc. To be in line with international standard and quality system, the shipyard has been approved of and certified for qualification of ISO 9001 by well-reputed authorities of China. "

Nowhere did yacht building given a mention.

Here is an example of a large yacht making facility. This certainly doesn't belong to any of the major shipyards that work for the defense industry.

http://www.showboats.com/Articles/Features/Dragon-Fire-3.asp

Here is an example of the largest yachts built by country of origin. There are three names there made in China, whose links you can click on. None of them are built by the biggest yards that do tankers and also work for the defense industry.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/megayachts/2008-worlds-largest-yachts/index1.aspx

Do note that a 90 meter yacht would already be in the listing of the top 100 sized yachts. Only two made in China made that list and near the 90 meter length, the Nero and the Asean Lady, both are not made by the biggest shipyards in China and those associated with the defense industry.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/megayachts/2008-worlds-largest-yachts/

The Asean Lady is owned by the guy who also owns that shipyard, Yantai-Raffles. The owner is Brian Chang. The Nero is also made by the same shipyard and so far is the largest yacht made in China. This ship was only delivered this year after a one year delay. I believe this is the ship in question. Do note for its mechanical troubles, its Caterpillar powered. Yantai Shipyard is the only private and foreign owned major shipyard in China. It is definitely a huge yard, claimed to have the world's largest gantry crane, but it is not involved in the defense industry, nor owned, or partly owned by the PRC government. Looking at the stuff it makes it's nothing in the caliber of Jiangnan Shipyard.

http://www.yantai-raffles.com/

 

[dragonfire]

What if ... China has no intention of ever building (a) carrier(s).

No Navy would undertake to procure through whatever means to study more than 3 CVGs end to end and inside out and decide not to build it unless there are financial limitations. PLAN intends to build and operate its carrier fleets. There have been mulitple quotes released through the PLAN in this regard.

With respect to a possible assumption that the chinese are playing a game to make other nations spend more money on defence, i sincerely doubt if US, UK, France, Russia are building the carrier capabilities beacuse of a threat perception from China. If that was the case existing carrier capabilities of USN is more than even enough to project power / threaten China. China is economicaly strong, they have good building capabilities and have a credible nuc-subs carrying nuc weapons, wht they lack is carrier groups and they will build to operate aircraft carriers. Mark my word the Varyag will be their first operational carrier :vamp

 

[Schumacher]

No Navy would undertake to procure through whatever means to study more than 3 CVGs end to end and inside out and decide not to build it unless there are financial limitations. PLAN intends to build and operate its carrier fleets. There have been mulitple quotes released through the PLAN in this regard. .....

True, PLAN will surely get some carriers. But agree somewhat with what the other poster said that there's certainly some 'smokescreen' here intended or not with this carrier project. I don't think PLAN sees it as having nearly as much strategic significance as public reports suggest. I certainly see PLA as putting more emphasis on projects like subs, next-gen aircraft etc just to name a few.
But I guess that's the same with most forces with carriers out there ie their symbolic significance is much more than that of the other assets even if the military significance is less.

 

[Feanor]

I would disagree. The significance of carriers as tools of force projection to their owners can not be underestimated. With the exception of the USA which has a global network of bases, no other nation can hope to project force far beyond it's borders without them.

 

[dragonfire]

I certainly see PLA as putting more emphasis on projects like subs, next-gen aircraft etc just to name a few.

See tht's the point here PLAN has solid multi class nuc-sub development program running with inductions happening as such. The PLAAF also has development program with one rumoured to be a 5th Gen program amongst others. So whts missing for them is a carrier; so....

 

[KiwiRob]

I haven't got the article electronically but in last weeks New Ships Weekly they reported that the Chinese have officially stated that they will launch a carrier with the next 10 years, the article then mentioned that an unnamed source had seen a hull already under construction, it didn't mention which shipyard.

 

[Blitzo]

Well there are quite a few articles that say things like that. There is also a couple of sites that say china is starting construction on two ships to be finished by 2015 this year. Personally I feel 2015 may be a bit optimistic for a country with no experience building a carrier before. But hey, I gotta hope.

 

[yasin_khan]

Well there are quite a few articles that say things like that. There is also a couple of sites that say china is starting construction on two ships to be finished by 2015 this year. Personally I feel 2015 may be a bit optimistic for a country with no experience building a carrier before. But hey, I gotta hope.

China is a rich country and can do ToTs with Russia.If Russia helps India then it will also help China.And dont forget they have bought old air craft carrier from Australia and is using as recreational duties but it also help them for designs.

 

[gf0012-aust]

And dont forget they have bought old air craft carrier from Australia and is using as recreational duties but it also help them for designs.

HMAS Melbourne has never been used as a display or trainer - the vessel was too far gone to be lazarused as seaworthy. (It almost sank under tow - a number of times)

It's not been used for any duties. The closest its been used for anything was an apparent facsimile done of its deck and used for ground based training in the early 90's. That has never been substantiated.

The "holiday carriers" are the ex Russian - definitely not HMAS Melbourne.