Russia helps China build new aircraft carrier

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Well, you are right about the geopolitical reasons for having a carrier, but being Chinese, I can tell you that me and my fellow chinese feel that an aircraft carrier is one of the last things we need to acquire to challenge the US, perhaps not now, but in the future. So really, it is a matter of national pride, almost.
A possible aircraft carrier will probably be used for protection of shipping lanes, which is crucial to china.

Depends on how you are planing to "take on" the US. If its in a nuclear exchange then you guys had better start building nukes. If its a shooting war over Taiwan then clearly a carrier would be useless. But realistically how likely is a real shooting war with the US? Hopefully (for all of us) not very.

If your plan to challenge the US's status as the worlds only superpower then PROC will have to match the global reach and influence of the US if it is to secure access to global markets and resources. If that "cold" confrontation is the objective then a carrier force will be invaluable. Carriers are tools of power projection, and unless they are escort carriers are practically useless for defending sea lanes. If PROC wants to take on US global supremacy then you will need the ability to project soft and hard power across the planet, and only a carrier force will allow you to do that.

And as for the Mig-29K vs. the Su-33; it is really hard to tell whether the electronics of one is more superior to the other. The most we can do is speculate unless one has actually built the electronics in both aircraft and can tell us. I gave information on thrust, payload, and range because they were the most up front no nonsense stats you can use to compare aircraft. And finally, what do you think would win in an engagement, a point defence aircraft, or an air superiority plane?

Well you could probably assume that most of the avionics (HUI, Info management ect) would be comparable. The major differences should be in payload, performance, size of the radar and cost. Clearly an advanced Su-33 would be more capable throughout the spectrum than a MiG-29 derivative. However the shear size of that platform means they are only suited to large carriers, and for a Kiev derivative or the like (aka Admiral Gorshkov) MiG-29K is perfect. After all 16~18 MiG-29K's are better than 10 Su-33's. Additionally the Flanker airframe is much more capable as a striker, the MiG-29K's limited payload capacity would constrain its strike options. So i guess it depends on the size of the carrier and th intended role as to which one is "better". One things for sure they wouldnt have a fly off to see which one would "win".

 

[Feanor]

Ozzy the MiG-29K of today is far newer then the Su-33. The Su-33's currently in service entered service in the early 90's (92-93), while the MiG-29K are rolling off the assembly line as we speak. The MiG-29K being sold to India today are far closer related to the MiG-35, then to the MiG-29S.

 

[funtz]

What is the status PLA-N order for Su-33s from Russia?
Thats one way they might be upgraded.
Upgrading the avionics of the plane should not take time(if they happen), the Russian industry has plenty of experience in upgrading the Su-27/30's to modern standards, even the Chinese industry has some experience(with J-11B).

If we talk in current terms the Su-33s will have a tough time in a comparison with the Mig-29Ks, the Mig-29Ks can carry a wider and modern variety of weapons (air to air, air to ground/sea), preform their missions with more efficiency.

Su33: http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su33/lth/

Mig-29K: http://www.migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_K_KUB_e.htm

 

[Salty Dog]

yeah, this is just another article by Andrei Pinkov trying to link China to Russia somehow. I think at the moment, putting China's program together with Russia is a little too far of a stretch. It doesn't even seem like China is asking Russia for any help.

Whilst there are plenty of worthy discussions going on. Has anyone found what ties there are, if any, of Russia assisting China with their aircraft carrier programs?

 

[Bang-Bang]

post deleted .................

 

[Iam]

I think its better to chinese to be keep dreaming of a super power.

I had read in newspapers , that china's Estimated growth in 2009 is near to 8% . And India is up to that . so what you are thinking ???????

And can anyone tellme that when admiral gorshkov ( maybe spell mistake ) Gonna complete ???? 2014-2016 ???? .

We may be steering off the topic here.
Excluding the land mass sizes of both countries. 8% of ~3Trillion (china) compared to that of ~1.2Trillion ( India ) pretty much summarises what there is to the equation.

Few questions that come to mind with the Chinese using legacy russian carrier designs. I tried to search on the net but couldn't find much information on the below.

1) Does any one have any idea what power plant's these Chinese carrier's will use. I suppose it's not going to be those on their SSBN's ?

2) Is there any mention of active air defence hardware, if so which ones ?

3) I guess they have a few underwater assets to escort, which ones are they planning ?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Ozzy the MiG-29K of today is far newer then the Su-33. The Su-33's currently in service entered service in the early 90's (92-93), while the MiG-29K are rolling off the assembly line as we speak. The MiG-29K being sold to India today are far closer related to the MiG-35, then to the MiG-29S.

Mate i understand that the currently deployed Su-33 is a rather privative beast. However I'm sure any possible Chinese sale would come with the stock and standard Su-30 goodies. Probably even a BARS. Remeber i did say "Advanced".

IMHO if the carrier had the size to take a propper squadron, then a modern Su-33 would offer much more capability than a MiG-29K.

 

[yasin_khan]

No one liners.

 

[tatra]

When they release original pictures then post them.

Some more 'not real' images from
http://www.nn.northropgrumman.com/news/2003/030710_cvn21_contract.html (CV21)
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConMediaFile.32031 (CVF)

 

[tphuang]

Whilst there are plenty of worthy discussions going on. Has anyone found what ties there are, if any, of Russia assisting China with their aircraft carrier programs?

some of the subsystems like arresting cable. They are definitely going to ask both Ukraine/Russia for help in training. And of course, the first batch of air wing will be Russian made like su-33 and ka-31.

Ozzy the MiG-29K of today is far newer then the Su-33. The Su-33's currently in service entered service in the early 90's (92-93), while the MiG-29K are rolling off the assembly line as we speak. The MiG-29K being sold to India today are far closer related to the MiG-35, then to the MiG-29S.

When su-33 does get pushed out again, it will definitely be to newer standards. Now, they can even eventually be upgraded to su-35 avionics standard, but China would go for that. It's getting 14 su-33s for training purposes and initial carrier operations. Doesn't need to be too amazing. Once the domestic naval flanker gets into service after that, it will be using the same avionics/weapons standard as non-naval J-11s. And when the avionics/weapons used as in the same generation, naval flankers are clearly superior to Mig-29Ks, which will probably be the least capable naval fighter when it joins service (assuming that harriers retire).

What is the status PLA-N order for Su-33s from Russia?
Thats one way they might be upgraded.
Upgrading the avionics of the plane should not take time(if they happen), the Russian industry has plenty of experience in upgrading the Su-27/30's to modern standards, even the Chinese industry has some experience(with J-11B).

If we talk in current terms the Su-33s will have a tough time in a comparison with the Mig-29Ks, the Mig-29Ks can carry a wider and modern variety of weapons (air to air, air to ground/sea), preform their missions with more efficiency.

Su33: http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su33/lth/

Mig-29K: http://www.migavia.ru/eng/military_e/MiG_29_K_KUB_e.htm

they will obviously not use the original su-33 avionics in the long run. For initial operational experience, they can probably live upgraded su-27 standard. Mind you, China has been upgrading even the Russian flankers it got.

 

[Feanor]

So the order for 14 Su-33's has been confirmed? DID ran an article on it, but the article was basically a maybe, rather then a definitive confirmation. And it has been confirmed that an upgraded Su-33 will be developed?

 

[funtz]

Some of the subsystems like arresting cable. They are definitely going to ask both Ukraine/Russia for help in training. And of course, the first batch of air wing will be Russian made like su-33 and ka-31.

how long is the time line here before there are actual Su-33s or Chinese made naval flankers operating off a carrier?

When su-33 does get pushed out again, it will definitely be to newer standards. Now, they can even eventually be upgraded to su-35 avionics standard, but China would go for that.

It's getting 14 su-33s for training purposes and initial carrier operations. Doesn't need to be too amazing. Once the domestic naval flanker gets into service after that, it will be using the same avionics/weapons standard as non-naval J-11s.

And when the avionics/weapons used as in the same generation, naval flankers are clearly superior to Mig-29Ks, which will probably be the least capable naval fighter when it joins service (assuming that harriers retire).

The Naval flankers will be superior to the Naval fulcrums if you utilize them for strike, if they are for the same fleet air defence profile, its a different situation.

With a short take off medium to large sized carrier the strike component will have to be something else (long ranged bombers, submarines, ships) the Soviet/Russian way.

Well lets talk of upgraded naval flankers when we see them, for now they really are from a previous generation.

they will obviously not use the original su-33 avionics in the long run. For initial operational experience, they can probably live upgraded su-27 standard. Mind you, China has been upgrading even the Russian flankers it got.

If the first carrier comes out around 2015-20 from PLA-Ns the aircraft carrier program operational, PLA-N should go with options available in the market and then to a advanced fifth generation program, with options like F-35B/C becoming operational they might put the flankers and fulcrums in the irrelevant category in some scenarios. (the ones where they face each other).

 

[Feanor]

The fulcrum flankers comparison was in comparing the Indian Navy carrier, and the Russian Navy. I wasn't commenting on a potential Chinese Su-33 variant.

 

[kay_man]

The fulcrum flankers comparison was in comparing the Indian Navy carrier, and the Russian Navy. I wasn't commenting on a potential Chinese Su-33 variant.

The Chinese were also developing naval variant of the the J-10 if im not wrong. Has tht been scrapped?

 

[tphuang]

So the order for 14 Su-33's has been confirmed? DID ran an article on it, but the article was basically a maybe, rather then a definitive confirmation. And it has been confirmed that an upgraded Su-33 will be developed?

it's not confirmed, but that's likely what's going to happen. The domestic program needs some time before they can be trusted. They are already experienced at putting N-001VE radar + R-77 upgrade on su-27sk, so I'd imagine any su-33 they buy would be at least that level. And later they would get upgraded to be able to fire anti-ship missiles at least

The Chinese were also developing naval variant of the the J-10 if im not wrong. Has tht been scrapped?

that never left the drawing board.

how long is the time line here before there are actual Su-33s or Chinese made naval flankers operating off a carrier?


The Naval flankers will be superior to the Naval fulcrums if you utilize them for strike, if they are for the same fleet air defence profile, its a different situation.

flanker should be superior in both sense, but they can be used in so many more roles, could be used for a EW variant or buddy-to-buddy refueler or a mini-AWACS (pardon the incorrect terminology). They can do longer range strike missions, carry more missiles.

With a short take off medium to large sized carrier the strike component will have to be something else (long ranged bombers, submarines, ships) the Soviet/Russian way.

Well lets talk of upgraded naval flankers when we see them, for now they really are from a previous generation.


If the first carrier comes out around 2015-20 from PLA-Ns the aircraft carrier program operational, PLA-N should go with options available in the market and then to a advanced fifth generation program, with options like F-35B/C becoming operational they might put the flankers and fulcrums in the irrelevant category in some scenarios. (the ones where they face each other).

there is a military embargo still in place. They will probably use some naval flanker for a while and then have a stealth naval fighter afterward. But the naval flanker will remain part of the fleet for a while. After all, super hornets are not all going to be retired when F-35 join service.

 

[roberto]

If the first carrier comes out around 2015-20 from PLA-Ns the aircraft carrier program operational, PLA-N should go with options available in the market and then to a advanced fifth generation program, with options like F-35B/C becoming operational they might put the flankers and fulcrums in the irrelevant category in some scenarios. (the ones where they face each other).

2015-2020 is too far into the future. we dont know if Stealth will be even relvent. considering the advances in EW/Radar/Software/communication/space capabilities. Stealth aircraft are expensive to upgrade and modify for newer weopons.
Su-33 class fighter will still give PLAN ability to fire hypersonic antiship/Antiradiation weopons at long standoff ranges. with ability to carry external jammers.
and u still cant put bunkerbusting bombs inside a small stealth fighter which are essential against underground hardened or mountainous structures.

 

[Feanor]

VLO will always be relevant. The question is whether VLO will be largely still RCS dependent, or whether new factors affecting detection, tracking, and targetting will appear (for example more powerful OLS systems).

 

[roberto]

The difference between 15sqm and 1 sqm is largely irrevlent to current modern radar systems.
Stealth airplane has fixed shape for 40 years. The most it can be done is improving the paint. while detection technolgies. are constantly improving. Wait untill GaNs based AESA module becomes common in next 4 to 5 years. and there after Diamond based. The size of Globe to hide things are constant. but number of satellites and there ability is constantly increasing.

 

[Feanor]

No. Stealth airplane (as you put it) has not been constant for the last 40 years. When you compare the RCS of an F-117, to an F-22 the difference is phenomenal. Not to mention that once again VLO is more then RCS control. Keep in mind there are active measures for concealing things, like jammers, etc.

 

[roberto]

F-117 was developed when Semiconductor technlogy was at primitive stage.
The whole COTS revolution for Military started in late 90s.(hence exponential increase in capabilities/lower cost/quicker upgrades)
F-117 already become irrelevant in less than 10 years of service. See Serbia issue with 1960s era defence electronics/optics.
U cannot keep fixed design for 40 years. like F-22/F-35.