Who is gonna make the 5-gen fighter first?
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
The Americans. There are 91 F-22A Raptors in USAF inventory according to the USAF F-22 factsheet here.And produce at least 50 of them, not just 1 or 2.
What do you think, guys?
Americans?
Russians?
Chinese maybe?
Let's talk about real 5-gen, not about any bulls**t like S-37 or...you know:
New technology, new engines, new electronics, new armament, new body materials, etc.
yes exactly . the F-22 is a fifth gen plane already in production.
the competition for second place is between F-35 and the PAK-Fa.
there is also the Chinese J-XX but dont really know the status of that or when is it expected to make a debut.
and hey ! theres also the indian MCA. maiden flight expected in 2012.
Wasn't the S-37 just a prototype/demonstrator for a true fifth-generation fighter?And produce at least 50 of them, not just 1 or 2.
What do you think, guys?
Americans?
Russians?
Chinese maybe?
Let's talk about real 5-gen, not about any bulls**t like S-37 or...you know
New technology, new engines, new electronics, new armament, new body materials, etc.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #7
Come on, man. F-22 is not a 5-gen. Lets call it an "improved" or "4+". Russians have lot's of variants in these "4+": Su-33, Su-35, etc.
F-22 was designed and tested under another model name in mid-80s. As a result of those tests came F-22 with some little changes.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
As the US measures aircraft generations, the F-22A is a 5th generation aircraft. The program which evolved into the Raptor, the ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighter) did start in the mid-80's, but over the years there were significant and repeated re-designs of the aircraft.
The F-22 also includes a number of features which have not been observed in previous aircraft. The most significant of these would likely be significant RCS and sig-management efforts to make the F-22 a LO fighter. Previous LO aircraft were either tactical attack, strategic bomber or recon aircraft.
-Cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #10
That's true...:vamp
Those US measures. Not so much time ago they were claiming that their auto industry is fully competitive. Real life become a real juror.
Now taxpayers should pay for the big 3's mistakes
When a small cafe or a "corner store" is dying because of the competition. The government is not supporting it's owner, isn't? Nobody cares. What's the difference with the big 3 then? Isn't it the same situation?
Last 15 years Russian government spends $$$ to support it's dying auto industry. Nobody wants to buy these cars anymore. People drive Japanees and German cars. But...the taxpayers are still responsible for the "mummy russian auto" life. That's exactly what's gonna happen to big 3.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable just to pay to each worker some amount like $ 500,000 and close these "half life industry" for the competitors. At least it's fair.
Confine ones comments to those that are defence related as well as relevant to the category and thread topics. Discussion of the socio-economic and/or political situation isThat's true...:vamp
Those US measures. Not so much time ago they were claiming that their auto industry is fully competitive. Real life become a real juror.
Now taxpayers should pay for the big 3's mistakes
When a small cafe or a "corner store" is dying because of the competition. The government is not supporting it's owner, isn't? Nobody cares. What's the difference with the big 3 then? Isn't it the same situation?
Last 15 years Russian government spends $$$ to support it's dying auto industry. Nobody wants to buy these cars anymore. People drive Japanees and German cars. But...the taxpayers are still responsible for the "mummy russian auto" life. That's exactly what's gonna happen to big 3.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable just to pay to each worker some amount like $ 500,000 and close these "half life industry" for the competitors. At least it's fair.
fftopic unless there is direct connection to defence. Given the above post does not involve defence companies it has no relevance and is fftopic.-Preceptor
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Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
The F-22A has already set the bar for a 5th gen fighter, and they are already in squadron service. So the US built the first 5th gen fighter, and they are currently producing the 2nd, the F-35. The F-35 will reach triple digit in service numbers while any other 5th gen projects are still in the lab.
As for the definition of 5th gen? Well historically the next generation of platforms has been defined by one that provides "game changing" capability, or fundamentally alters the manner in which contemporary air battle is waged. The F-14 & F-15 had this effect (as did the SU-27) through the introduction of true, mature BVR capability, and full spectrum A2A design consideration, thus they heralded the introduction of 4th gen platforms as this was a fundamental advance over the previous gen. IMHO the level of information dominance provided by VLO combined in a high performance airframe and massively improved sensors, communications tech and information management techniques (such as sensor fusion) has brought a comparable change in the manner in which air combat is fought. By their nature generational changes are revolutionary rather than evolutionary (such as the incremental improvements to the fourth gen paradigm seen in the design Typhoon, Su-35 and F/A-18F BII). For me its not a checklist definition of widgets that defines a 5th gen platform, its the combined effect its capabilities have on the battlespace.
As for the definition of 5th gen? Well historically the next generation of platforms has been defined by one that provides "game changing" capability, or fundamentally alters the manner in which contemporary air battle is waged. The F-14 & F-15 had this effect (as did the SU-27) through the introduction of true, mature BVR capability, and full spectrum A2A design consideration, thus they heralded the introduction of 4th gen platforms as this was a fundamental advance over the previous gen. IMHO the level of information dominance provided by VLO combined in a high performance airframe and massively improved sensors, communications tech and information management techniques (such as sensor fusion) has brought a comparable change in the manner in which air combat is fought. By their nature generational changes are revolutionary rather than evolutionary (such as the incremental improvements to the fourth gen paradigm seen in the design Typhoon, Su-35 and F/A-18F BII). For me its not a checklist definition of widgets that defines a 5th gen platform, its the combined effect its capabilities have on the battlespace.
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mandeep_619
New Member
1st.F-22
2nd.F-35
3rd PAK-FA
4th F-XX
5th.MCA?( i am not even sure if they are still working on this when info on this first came out it was a proposal and i think it has stayed at that stage)
2nd.F-35
3rd PAK-FA
4th F-XX
5th.MCA?( i am not even sure if they are still working on this when info on this first came out it was a proposal and i think it has stayed at that stage)
Garbage. You've ignored my healthy suggestion to define the characteristic features of a 5th gen. aircraft and instead make an outlandish claim that the one aircraft currently considered 5th. gen is actually not? The F-22 is superior to the Su-35BM in practically every way. The Su-33 isn't even a 4+ generation fighter. It's an early-mid 4th gen Flanker. Essentially a navalized Su-27S.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
You're frigging kidding me right?
The exact date of its design is irrelevant, its battle space capability that counts, and the F-22A is clearly a game changer. Su-35, Typhoon, F/A-18F BII are simply no match, and by everyone else's definition they are 4.5th gen platforms. In terms of design philosophy not date, the F-22A is drastically different to any 4th gen platform. It is generationaly superior to 4.5th gen platforms, thats all that matters.
The testbed was the YF-22, which met the DoD's design goals and hence became the F-22A. The technology in the current F-22A is more advanced than that fielded on any other platform in terms of signature management, engine technology and sensors. If you think the fact that the design was initiated in the late 1980's somehow makes the platform 4th gen your kidding yourself.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Personally i wouldn't even put Rafale in the 4.5th gen basket. What differentiates 4.5th gen platforms is the primacy placed on information dominance within the avionics suite and limited RCS reduction. IMHO only the Typhoon, F-15E BII and F/A-18F BII meet this requirement (the Su-35BM may but we'll wait and see) and thus the Rafale is an advanced 4th gen platform. Its a borderline case IMHO, and if all of its planned avionics options ever do make it into service then maybe it will join the Typhoon in the 4.5th gen platform.
5th generation charecteristics?
Was going to say:
- Designed to have a strongly reduced RCS, in the 0.1m^2 or less region.
- AESA radar.
- Advanced avionics & electronics.
- Supercruise.
---
But then the B2 can't even reach supersonic speeds, while the F-35 can't supercruise as far as I know...
Maybe the description should be:
The plane must be among the leaders of it's class in performance, ie. fighter, bomber, strike; while being designed from the beginning to have a strongly reduced RCS on multiple wavelengths & angles.
Was going to say:
- Designed to have a strongly reduced RCS, in the 0.1m^2 or less region.
- AESA radar.
- Advanced avionics & electronics.
- Supercruise.
---
But then the B2 can't even reach supersonic speeds, while the F-35 can't supercruise as far as I know...
Maybe the description should be:
The plane must be among the leaders of it's class in performance, ie. fighter, bomber, strike; while being designed from the beginning to have a strongly reduced RCS on multiple wavelengths & angles.
When come to the measure or definition of 5th Gen Combat Aircraft, many of us has a different view on it.
From point of view of US and western, F-22 is fullfill the character of 5th Gen combat aircraft. But for others, there'll different things.
To be fair, as a private opinion F-22 only can be different for others aircraft is its airframe design.
If stealth become main factor, both Eurofighter Typhoon & Dassault Rafale also has the character eventhou just using RCS. Russian also claim that their newly MiG-35 & Su-35 has been incorporate with RCS.
From point of view of US and western, F-22 is fullfill the character of 5th Gen combat aircraft. But for others, there'll different things.
To be fair, as a private opinion F-22 only can be different for others aircraft is its airframe design.
If stealth become main factor, both Eurofighter Typhoon & Dassault Rafale also has the character eventhou just using RCS. Russian also claim that their newly MiG-35 & Su-35 has been incorporate with RCS.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Here is an interesting website that lists general aircraft generations, the approximate years of entry, as well as what defined an aircraft of a given generation.
Here is what it used to define 5th generation aircraft.
-Cheers
Here is what it used to define 5th generation aircraft.
Keep in mind though, that is an opinion. AFAIK there is no "official" definition of 5th (or other) generation aircraft.
-Cheers