Fighting a Second Falklands War

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Tankcrewman2008

New Member
So what if Argentina are capable of taking the falklands you'll then try and move the population? Very difficult operation there we all know that in the falklands war the islanders played chicken with the Argentine lorry's the islanders always won. Still as soon as any attack begins the whole British armed forces will know and the rapid reaction force will be gearing up ready to go. With the amazing C-17 we can get troops and equipment to the island in a short time maybe bring a few challengers 2's and some Gurkha's.

Alot has changed since 1982 such as the new weapons and equipment such as Brimstone, ALARM and the royal navy's new destroyer which will be doing its thing soon after more testing.

Back to the surprise attack, I'm gathering this attack would be top secret even the population of Argentina wont have a clue whats going on? I noticed in an early post that Argentine doctrine for attacking is going for the capital not exactly a good idea as most of the military will then pull of a stylish defense giving the reaction force time to arrive couple this with a large submarine of shore you got yourselves into a pretty nasty situation.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
While the C-17 can fly to the Falklands where is it going to land? The British contingency planning is about rapid reinforcement to dissuade an Argentinean invasion not a rapid counter-invasion. While the British forces would put together a formidable force to ‘go south’, far more capable than the 1982 force, it would still require a month or so to deploy for a counter invasion. That is if the government of the day gives them the go ahead.

It isn’t a doctrine of the Argentinean military to “always attack the capital”. The Argentinean Navy concentrated on Port Stanley in the 1982 invasion because that’s all there was in the Falklands at the time and the defensive potential was so minor they didn’t need to land further away in order to safely make it ashore.
 

John Sansom

New Member
Likening the potential round-up of Falkland Islanders by an Argentinian force which has somehow successfully established itself on the disputed territory to the IDF's action against Israeli Gaza settlers is an interesting tack to take. However, the IDF had a lot of trouble winkling those settlers out. Anything resembling a similar action on the Falklands will reflect (probably to a lesser extent) similar problems.....unless Argentina is willing to get really brutal.

Would Britain and her allies really just assume a stand-by attitude while this is going on? Indeed, would any such move by Argentina be so surprising that Whitehall would be struck useless by the audacity of it all? And, of course, this also assumes that British troops in situ would have been taken out darned near immediately by the invading Argentinians.

Sadly, you're probably right about the "pariah" thing. International shoulder shrugging is more likely than outrage.

My apologies for these slightly disjointed comments--and for repeating what others have already noted--but it would be interesting indeed to attempt to come up with a scenario for Argentinian success which takes all the previously posted criticisms into account.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Considering you have engaged directly and highly critically of me in this debate from my initial post you should do the honourable thing and seclude yourself from any attempt at Moderation.
FYI, I decided that since I'm clearly labelled as a moderator, for me to make any criticism of your tone or choice of language would be interpreted as a moderator intervention however I put it, & therefore thought that I should clearly label it as such, & separate it from anything else I said.

BTW, I have not engaged with you in this debate from your initial post. A lot further in than that: not even on the same day as your first post.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
My apologies for these slightly disjointed comments--and for repeating what others have already noted--but it would be interesting indeed to attempt to come up with a scenario for Argentinian success which takes all the previously posted criticisms into account.
Thankyou and I hope my response in shock to the level of criticisms was not too rude. I like to think I have responded to the scenario criticisms, if there are any points you are uncertain about please raise them and I will try and respond further.

The comparison between the Gaza settlements and the Falklands shouldn’t be taken too far. I’ve used it because the concept is similar but many of the specifics aren’t.

The Israelis in Gaza were a very organised bunch with lots of fore warning of what was going to happen and a totally different environment. In the Falklands in the height of winter in your isolated homestead a few days after a shocking surprise attack and with no communications with the outside world a patrol of MPs comes to your door and tells you they are confiscating your house for military use and you have to relocate to a centre in Stanley and when the bus stops you are frog marched onto a 737 and a few hours later offloaded in Argentina what are you going to do? It’s chilling but this kind of thing has been done before and very few people can resist it. Considering the very small size of the population – 3,000 people will fit into eight 747s! – and the situation there is very little the locals could do to stop being deported by an organised Argentinean effort if they were in control of the islands.

Sure some people will realise what is going on but their resistance options are very limited. With the kind of non-lethal weapons (NLW) available now the Argentineans can subdue resisters without having to use lethal force. Since the population is so small and so isolated from each other opportunities for mass resistance are extremely limited. Port Stanley has only 2,000 people and as you can see from the picture would be easily controlled by a few hundred MPs with NLW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aerial_photo_Port_Stanley.jpg
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Wow look what happens when you take a few days off!

Abraham, mate i personally really enjoy your input and commentary, you usually have a wealth of knowledge and both rational and keen analytical input. This place is better for your presence. However your responses in this instance seem to be largely emotive.

I know this is going to sound cheesy but I've been poking around this place for a while now, and after you have a thousand discussions you get to know the caliber of posters, and most of the difference is not just their level of knowledge but the way they conduct themselves. Mate I can assure you the guys you have been debating with are not flamers or run of the mil fanboys, they are IMHO some of the most respectable and rational members here. Rick and Cooch are hardly a pack of fools, and IMO their input in this thread has been typically balanced and informative. Neither have attacked you personally, they have simply debated an idea put forward by another member, which is the very reason all of us are here isn't it? Additionally I don't personally think Swerve is picking on you, I've never encountered an instance where he has used his mod status unfairly, and I've had plenty of disagreements with him on a number of issues (some more heated than this). From a neutral point of view it seems that he was debating an idea as a member (surely you would grant him that right), and commenting on your behavior towards other members as a mod, two very different things. I don't think any reasonable observer would agree that swerve was acting dishonorably by commenting on the debate and moderating it at the same time in the manner he has. Bating mods when they have warned you is a sure way to get baned, and i personally think that would be a serious loss for the forum. Mate attack the argument, not the man.

Now its the inevitable time for the input of Ozzy's 2 cents. The two elements to the debate.

The surprise attack.

IMHO if we are going to discuss a post invasion scenario in order for it to have a sound foundation in something close to reality the feasibility of the invasion phase must be examined, after all its pretty much pointless discussing occupation tactics if the islands can not be taken by force. Using civilian aircraft and 2 Herks to lift a Battalion group in a night, winter, surprise attack on Mt Pleasant in order to catch the airfield intact and prevent reinforcement. That is the idea? Correct me if I'm wrong. Is it possible for such an attack to succeed? yes. Is it likely? IMHO, No.

This plan reminds me of many Taiwan scenario's put forward in vareous discussions. While all remain feasible they rely on surprise because the defender enjoys over-match throughout the theater. If at any time the defender is able to employ even a portion of the capability he has in place the attack will fail totally. In order for such an attack to succeed OPSEC must be maintained throughout the buildup and execution of the plan, and the use of civilian assets is liable to arouse some interest. Indeed with the ISR assets of the UK and her allies there is a high likely hood that the prior training and asset mobilization (necessary for such a daring and challenging maneuver) will be noticed by someone. If at any point the UK gets even a whiff of the argies are planning something then the probability of success falls to near zero as even the deployment of limited additional assets would render the operation beyond the argies feasible capability to execute. Even if the Argentinians were able to fly 2 herks at low altitude, at night and in the South Atlantic winter (no mean feat) in order to stay under the UK's radar footprint dropping accurately at night in those conditions would be extremely difficult. If the incoming flight is detected at any time throughout its flightpath before the terminal phase the F3's will have enough time to get airborne, and then the whole thing becomes a turkey shoot.

Additionally dropping right on the airfield means flying right over capable GBAD with ancient KC-130's and converted civilian transports. How are they going to drop safely in the face of a modern SAM threat? The loss of a single herk would mean game over. Unless you can get the transports over the airfield within 3~5 minutes of detection (I personally don't think thats feasible given the aircraft and organization we are talking about) your going to be flying low, slow, big and CM privative aircraft into a modern SAM engagement envelope. If you intend to drop some distance from the airfield to avoid the GBAD threat then you give the garrison time to deploy, and even if you have a battalion deployed your using light, unsupported infantry against entrenched, qualitatively superior defending forces with 105mm arty. Again not very fun.

So many things have to go right with plans like this, that aim to use surprise to wrong-foot an enemy who enjoys over-match at the theater level. And considering the poor quality of the Argentinian armed forces such an attack seems beyond the realms of feasibility currently.

An all out conventional amphibious assault has less chance of success IMO.

The post invasion plan.

I appreciate what your trying to do, and i think it is probably the best way of undermining the UK's will to fight over the Falklands without dramatically increasing the Argies military capability. However i doubt it would be enough to over ride the indignation and outrage that the surprise attack and UK dead that would undoubtedly follow. Additionally having thousands of UK citizens forcibly removed from their land and property by a foreign power would likely have a dramatic effect on public opinion as a form of "ethnic cleansing". true the effect would be much less than if the argies just took all the men and boys out and shot them in a ditch, but there would still be a significant effect. I personally think the loss of property and livelihood, even if they were compensated, would have a huge effect on public opinion. If the same thing happened on Christmas Island, as an Australian citizen i would be outraged, and demanding that the Australian government take a military option if need be to rectify the situation. I have no doubt that many of our British friends would feel the same. I grant you your plan would reduce the apatite for war significantly compared to a more violent invasion, thus i see where you are coming from. But personally i don't think it would be enough to prevent military retaliation and a campaign to retake the islands by force.

Mate this is not a personal attack on you, there is no need for an emotive response. You put an idea up for debate, you cant expect every response not to be critical.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
You don’t understand the airspace. The two radars located on West Falkland have roughly 80km radar horizons against a sea skimming aircraft (100 feet altitude), not taking into account any terrain masking just curvature of the Earth. It is quite feasible for a low level air infiltration to avoid these radar footprints and approach Mount Pleasant with little or no warning time. Neither radar has a horizon that extends east of Mount Pleasant. To dogleg around them only requires a low level aircraft to divert 50km north or south of the islands.
...
Considering the emotional attachment to the Malvinas in Argentina it should not be difficult to find at least a few thousand people to agree to some homesteading. They may not want to stay after the initial excitement wears off but their presence would be enough to secure facts on the ground and forestall any British attempt at reclaiming the islands.
"Homesteading" is an alien tradition to Argentina, & the terrain does not suit it. Sheep raising over wide areas needs capital & expertise, but very few people. Your hypothetical homesteaders would, in reality, just sit around consuming food & fuel imported from the mainland. I can't see that as being sustainable for long. Do you? I'd say a few weeks at most.

Meanwhile, there would be UN resolutions condemning the forced evacuation of the islanders, pictures on TV screens worldwide of tearful children torn from their homes, stories of family pets having to be killed rather than left to starve, etc., etc. It would be a policy guaranteed to destroy any international support for Argentina, make ordinary Argentineans (who I found very friendly & hospitable when travelling around the country a few years after the war) sympathetic to the islanders, & give rise to a clamour in Britain for the recovery of the islands at all costs. I think that media-savvy Argentinean politicians, such as the current president & her husband, would realise that.

As for flying round the W. Falkland radars - remind me, what's the distance from the Argentinean mainland to Mount Pleasant, via your proposed route? How does this compare with the loaded unrefuelled range of Argentinas current helicopter fleet (mostly UH-1H), & the CH-47s you propose they buy?

The feasibility of a surprise attack can't be considered in the abstract, without reference to the current, & possible future, capabilities of Argentinas armed forces. You're postulating a much more capable Argentinean military than at present, opposed to the current British force. Not realistic.

BTW - personally, I don't have any emotional attachment to the Falklands, & think that if it hadn't been for the 1982 invasion & the British reaction to it, in terms of forcing economic & political change on the Falklands, the islanders would probably have been better off in a democratic Argentina, even given the ups & downs of its economy & politics in the last 25 years. Galtieri did more for the Falklands & their inhabitants than any British politician in the previous century.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A limited response but thanks for contributing. I don't agree with your sentiment about the quality of the debate. Mod edit: Text deleted.

Is it possible for such an attack to succeed? yes. Is it likely? IMHO, No.
Know any that have failed? Here is a list of some of those that have succeeded: Storstrøm Bridge, Oslo airport Fornebu, Kristiansand airport Kjevik, Fort Eben-Emael, Willems Bridge Rotterdam, Entebbe...


Additionally dropping right on the airfield means flying right over capable GBAD with ancient KC-130's and converted civilian transports.
Firstly it isn't a para drop, its an airlanding. The Hercs land drop their ramps and out go the troops. If in the highly unlikely event that Hercs aren't used (just to satisfy the onerous demand that only Argentinean aircraft airworthy tomorrow can be used) Merlins or F28s are used then its kind of the same but everyone down ladders from the escape doors.

As to the GBAD threat. What GBAD threat? Sure there are Rapiers at RAF Mount Pleasant but they are not active 24-7-52. The Rapier 2000 has a MBTF of 175 hours. This would mean to keep it operational year around would require 50 offline cycles. There is no way the RA is maintaining this level of effort at the Falklands. Like all British defence efforts in the Falklands the GBAD capability requires intelligence warning to be activated.
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
As for flying round the W. Falkland radars - remind me, what's the distance from the Argentinean mainland to Mount Pleasant, via your proposed route? How does this compare with the loaded unrefuelled range of Argentinas current helicopter fleet (mostly UH-1H), & the CH-47s you propose they buy?
As to the scenario as I've detailed it the airlanding would be by Hercs. A 50km dogleg around the islands would result in a route of about 500km. Well within range for CH-47Fs with aux fuel and of course Hercs.

The capability required of a SOF coup de main against Mount Pleasant is well within Argentina's current capability. Any further effort - ensuring they have six airworthy and well trained low level flying Hercs would hardly upset the military balance and set off alarm bells around the world.
 

citizen578

New Member
Moderation

:confused:

I'm surprised, that in what has to be one of the most intensely moderated forums around, that no moderator has stepped in to stop this madness, and restore some sensible discussion.

Roberto was penalised for being overly protagonistic, and yet did not call the participants ''chest-thumping, politically motivated idiots'', or resist all logic for the sake of derailing what was an interesting and erudite discussion
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
:confused:

I'm surprised, that in what has to be one of the most intensely moderated forums around, that no moderator has stepped in to stop this madness, and restore some sensible discussion.
Actually, GF did intervene and require that posters making derogatory comments aimed at other posters go back and edit them out... Swerve has also commented on the language directed at other members, and I am doing so now. In point of fact, I would like all members to consider what Ozzy wrote below...

Mate attack the argument, not the man.
This is something moderators will be keeping a closer eye on.
-Preceptor
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This plan reminds me of many Taiwan scenario's put forward in vareous discussions. While all remain feasible they rely on surprise because the defender enjoys over-match throughout the theater. If at any time the defender is able to employ even a portion of the capability he has in place the attack will fail totally.
It’s very different to any Taiwan scenario because in the case of the Falklands there is no force depth beyond those units engaged in the initial attack. If you launch a coup de main style attack against Taiwan you may be able to take down the battalion guarding the beach but you then have to deal with the armoured brigade that shows up later in the day. In the Falklands there is no depth of defence.

In order for such an attack to succeed OPSEC must be maintained throughout the buildup and execution of the plan, and the use of civilian assets is liable to arouse some interest. Indeed with the ISR assets of the UK and her allies there is a high likely hood that the prior training and asset mobilization (necessary for such a daring and challenging maneuver) will be noticed by someone.
The initial attack only uses the SOF regiment and a small force of airlifters. Their training and preparation is far harder to notice than an amphibious assault force. If a cover is needed an apparent terrorist hostage situation could be manufactured and the training for the rescue used as a cover for training for the Mount Pleasant initial attack.

If the same thing happened on Christmas Island, as an Australian citizen i would be outraged, and demanding that the Australian government take a military option if need be to rectify the situation. I have no doubt that many of our British friends would feel the same. I grant you your plan would reduce the apatite for war significantly compared to a more violent invasion, thus i see where you are coming from. But personally i don't think it would be enough to prevent military retaliation and a campaign to retake the islands by force.
Yeah of course there is going to be lots of people upset but as you point out it’s all about reducing the scale of loss. While many will be outraged for HM Government it would not be as clear cut as “we need to rescue 2,000 subjects of the Queen from the Argentine Junta!” The decision would be do we have to spend $10-20 billion reclaiming some seized real estate on the other side of the world? The UK could probably cause more damage to Argentina through long drawn out legal action than military force.

Mate this is not a personal attack on you, there is no need for an emotive response. You put an idea up for debate, you cant expect every response not to be critical.
Yeah I can see that. There is a clear difference between your post and those that are still being written in response to this perfectly innocent little scenario.
 

roberto

Banned Member
Don't you get fed up with posting drivel?? You continue to ignore the fact that any rebuilding of Argentinas military requires money, retraining of their entire Armed Forces and the replacement of their logistical base if they go for all Russian equipment. And again one S-400 battery (which Russia won't export) is not going to change the course of any war.

And in any case, Britain would begin a military build up on the islands as Argentina rebuilding its military to retake ths islands would be noticed.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion about the UN-with Britains power of veto it doesn't matter if the rest of the world disagrees because they can veto the resolution.
It does not take much to create conflict Falkland. British Navy is small size. Land forces can barely support 10k troops. Strategic airlift is costly and no without protection.
IF Russia can donate MIG-29 to Lebanon and write off soviet era debts to many countries.
They would have no problem in installing S-400 batteries in Argentina. Look at the Political and economic mileage it will gain from such huge continent. Russia have new costal defence Antiship missile called Bation.
Argentina does not need whole milieary training. Just couple of squardons of Su-24/MIG-29 upgardes.
Brtain simply dont have polictical/financial muscle to start crises in Falkland. as no one in EU is supporting it.


Admin. Items deleted. Thanks, but we don't need either side promoting their political position based on news items. It's a military debate sans geopolitics.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Before this thread goes any further.

It is going to be contained to existing capabilities.

We're not going to wander down some distracting path of Argentina having Sukhois, the UK using F-22's and the Klingons joining sides with whoever takes their fancy.

This is not going to wander down the nonsensical path where every man and his dog offers up his or her weapon system of choice just because they want to.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Looking at it from an Argtine perspective again.

Before the any mission is approved the high-command in Argentina are going to conduct a pretty comprehensive micro risk assessment to ascertain whether the risk is worth the reward. They will look at their adversary’s capabilities, their own capabilities coupled with their ability to mitigate any identified vulnerabilities / threats, which have been exposed throughout the mission profile planning. As part of this thought process they will go through endless ‘what if’s’ and prepare the appropriate contingencies.

Now so far I have come up with the following ‘what if’s’ based on the discussed scenario and I’d be interested to hear how they would be countered to allow the mission to proceed:

1. What if the UK has identified through their agent network (military personnel on MI6’s pay roll) and intelligence / an electronic surveillance capability (GCHQ America’s section) that plans are being studied for a possible military option against the Malvinas. We can’t prove they know, when, where or how, but we have to assume they may have detected an increase in secrecy, chatter amongst the major arms responsible, and consolidation of SF assets at or near embarkation points. How will we counter this?

2. What if at least one of the UK’s nuclear attack submarines is currently patrolling the Southern Hemisphere? This is considered likely; with one vessel dedicated to escorting the Nuclear Deterrent that leaves at least two available to the Admiralty (rest in refit or committed to the ME or North Atlantic). If we assume the UK has picked up on increased ‘chatter’ amongst the Argentine military, then one must also assume the UK will assign one of it’s Hunter Killers to the South Atlantic theatre of operations. How will we mitigate the risk of Tomahawk strike against air and naval bases immediately our mission starts or over the following days? Assuming the Brit’s have an Astute on station (2010) you could be looking at potentially 20+ missiles considering the vessel can carry a mix of 35 harpoons, torpedoes and / or cruise missiles.

3. We know that the UK maintains a single flight of F3’s on the Island. Unlikely that these are airborne 24-7, however we don’t know their patrol patterns and they don’t follow a regular flight plan. Worst case scenario at least one will be on ‘scramble’ alert with a crew on short notice to respond. What if an F3 is flying CAP during our intended approach?

4. We intend attacking during bad weather (very common), we therefore chose to assume the UK assets dedicated to protecting the airfield will be hunkering down in their messes drinking coco and not manning the minimum amount of defensive positions laid down in RAF SOP’s. We are also assuming that these diminished assets will not be able to activate the Rapier system, or reach for the pre-positioned Starstreak Man-Pads (10-seconds – to two minute activation time) to disrupt our final approach. What if this isn’t the case, what if the base is running a drill or has received intelligence to indicate an increased threat profile, how are we going to determine the state of readiness during the final approach – success or suicide?

5. What if the final ‘shit or bust’ plan by the British is to park the 24-7 manned emergency fire tenders on the runway blocking any chance of an air-landing? What will the Hercs do then, turn round and return to base? How will they then survive the prospect of the Rapiers or Starsreak Man-Pads now coming on line sending them a few parting gifts, or worse scenario, the F3 on stand-by getting airborne once the fire tenders are cleared? Do we have a back-up plan to drop parachutists on pre-identified DZ’s near the airfield? If so, what are prevailing wind conditions, anything over 8-10 knots and we are in serious trouble, up to a third of our deployable troops could be injured on landing sucking up valuable embedded medical assets. We will also need time to assemble on our respective DZ markers, unpack our containers / heavy weapons pallets, revise objectives (based on losses incurred in the drop) before advancing to contact – a very confusing time, particularly in bad weather (as planned)? What if, as I suspect, the UK has already identified all nearby DZ’s and have pre-marked mortar tables ready (assuming their 105mms are still in storage), this will become a race against time, clearing the DZ before the (QRF) mortar teams begin pounding the area with HE.

6. In addition to the RAF Regiment defensive detachment we have to contend with a single Company of well trained and motivated infantry. At least one Platoon will be on QRF duty, one involved in training (weapons, tactics, patrolling) and one possibly stood-down (light duties, PT, meals). What if the QRF platoon is on high-readiness in the vicinity of the airbase? How quickly can the stood-down platoon deploy, how quickly can the Island defence force deploy, have we studied this?

7. Have we built in operational redundancy? One must assume at least a single HERC will not make it (shot-down, mechanical failure, accident). Have all the SF troops been briefed on primary and secondary objectives, do they have the extra capacity to deal with an attrition rate of at least 30% (minimum expected in a mission of this magnitude), can we still seize and hold all objectives? What happens if the UK military assets decide to withdrawl and consolidate to defensive positions away form the airfield, backed up by the slowly mobilising resident defence force happy in the knowledge that they have the unequivocal support of the local population? What if these new postions allow them to control the airfield with heavy weapons over-watch (MMG’s, Javelin, 81mm Mortars) preventing the air-landing of our much needed reinforcements? There objective being to consolidate, reinforce and then launch a counter attack against our attacking force, which is suffering diminishing ammunition supplies? We must also consider what happens if the defenders are further boosted by any RAF/Army/RN tradesmen, cooks and bottle-washers who will have all completed their APWT and be fully capable of firing their own personal weapons (this could add another 100-200 personnel). This will leave a combined RAF Reg / Infantry Company unit compromising at least 100 men to start the process of draining our attacking forces ammunition to a point where (unless re-supplied by air-drop) we will be forced to withdraw to the West or capitulate. And to cop it all they keep hitting us with Javelin, whilst we are stuck with Milan!

Unless the above can be answered by the SO providing the briefing I would tell him to fetch his coat and seek alternate employment!

From a numbers perspective, with 3-Commando Brigade about to leave A-Stan replaced by a light Brigade, and 16-Air-Assualt back at Catterick with the added benefit of the vastly expanded SBS/SAS/SFSG SF Group the UK will have enough assets availalbe to match those, which were sent in 82 (regardless of current operational deployments). Back then we had 10,000 Troops in Ireland and 2 Div's in Germany facing the Russians.
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Most of these questions have been answered in the outlines posted above. But to reiterate and expand:

1. MI6 HUMINT
Of course this is a risk but penetration of a nation states highest national command and special operations capability is one of the hardest things to do. Even if penetrated lockdown of all people in the know is a good way of making sure word does not leek out. If the spy can’t pass on their knowledge to the agent they are no good.

But the best response to this comes from the Argentineans own surveillance (commercial satellite) of the Falklands Garrison. If the British are tipped off they will order high levels of readiness and deploy the alert reinforcement. Even if they are tipped off and don’t do this well then it doesn’t effect the plan. British int could know about the surprise attack but as long as the garrison isn’t on increased alert it doesn’t matter.

The best way to avoid British int knowing something is afoot is to divert them. The false terror attack I mentioned before is ideal. A small unit of Argentine agents could seize some hostages claiming to be from some terror group. The SOF force is tapped to launch a rescue mission. They can carry out their training for the assault – and make plenty of chatter – without tipping anyone off. The hostage crisis can become a long drawn out one like the Peruvian Japanese embassy taking and divert everyone’s attention. You can even ask the British SAS for help... Of course the assault force takes off and captures Mount Pleasant a few hours before a breakthrough in negotiations means all the hostages are released and the ‘terrorists’ taken away by the police...

2. SSN Deploys
It is not likely that a RN SSN is in the South Atlantic such deployments would be very rare. But assuming one is in theatre it doesn’t effect the scenario. What is it going to do? Launch its TLAM at Mount Pleasant or a base in Argentina. It doesn’t have the right type of combat power to have any effect even if it destroys the Argentine air combat force or frigate base. The follow on Argentinean forces would be paras to provide further security and the MP evacuation force. Eveything can be provided by airlift. Since the objective is to avoid having to fight to keep the Falklands there is no need to move heavy units and ammunition. If the British send a task force south then the Argentines would withdraw the para brigade and let the Brits deal with a few thousand ‘civilian’ ultra nationalists occupying Port Stanley.

3. Tornado Airborne
Satellite surveillance can tell if a Tornado is about to launch. If one sorties when the initial attack is coming in you can delay the force until it has landed.

4. Bad Weather
No we don’t intend attacking during bad weather just during mid winter where the cold keeps people indoors and the tourists away. The objective is to land just before the civil flight so weather would have to be good enough for the airlines.

The low state of readiness inherent in any small force like the RAF Regt. airfield defence force and the RA GBAD is a given. Satellite surveillance could tell if these systems were operational (weather covers removed, IR profiles from generators) so could provide advance warning if there was an exercise. Anyway even if someone is turning on the Rapier 2000 to do a qualification check or something just when the Argie Hercs are coming into land that does not mean Gunner Hero is going to shoot them all down. Without orders to fire the finger is not going on the button. The command and control cycle does not exsist at low readiness to order an engagement in the 120-240 seconds from first blip on the radar to Herc applying reverse thrust on the runway.

5. Runway Blocked
For the 4th or 5th time the air landing is timed to happen just before a commercial flight from Chile is due in (1:30pm every Saturday). It’s not usual practice at any airport to park fire trucks on the middle of the runway when a scheduled flight is due.

6., 7. Counter attack
The objective of the initial strike is to defeat the air base by disrupting the garrison and blocking it for use – launching Tornados. They don’t actually have to capture everyone in DPM within 15 minutes just keep them from deploying capability that can stop the follow on force (GBAD, Tornados). 300-400 SOF soldiers is more than enough when all they are going to face is at best a platoon of light infantry and a section of airfield defence guards and a few pogues grabbing up small arms – all without any warning of the attack. The follow on force would be enroute to Stanley or Mount Pleasant with more combat power to mop up resistors. The British have no follow on forces to call upon except the FIDF who would have a platoon of other Argentine SOF occupying their depot and not be able to rummage up more than a few teams of armed civilians with a smattering of military training.

Unless the above can be answered by the SO providing the briefing I would tell him to fetch his coat and seek alternate employment!
Mod edit: Text deleted. Just because a soldier or weapon exists does not mean it is ready to be used. Posture, formation, readiness, etc are what is important.

Now the reality is the British forces and HM Government know they do not have an adequate defence capability for all contingencies in the Falklands. They used to keep such a force there after the ’82 War but decided in the cutbacks of the 90s to reduce this force back to just a sovereignty force with some capability to defend the island if given warning. The Falklands used to have a whole infantry battalion and Rapier battery. This is the kind of size needed to provide an effective 24-7-52 response to counter any coupe de main style surprises.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
Gets more and more interesting by the minute!

Assuming each Herc is carrying 90 - 95 - troops complete with personnel weapons / equipment (no heavy weapons pallet on the tail-gate -wouldn't facilities a rapid exit). What distance / time do you envisage between the first Herc gaining wheels-down and the follow-on aircraft gaining wheels-down? 2-minutes, 5 - minutes, 10 - minutes? What is your back-up plan should the first Herc crash on landing? Are you confident we are not going to witness another fiasco similar to the one experienced during the Iran rescue mission where assets hit each other in bad weather during the landing phase (fuel stop). Are you confident the pilots are capable of keeping a tight group in bad weather during the landing (winter in the Falklands is bloody terrible)? You are hoping to deploy 300 plus SF in a very short period of time, the pilots better be bloody good!

Assuming as soon as the first Herc begins disembarking it's SF units the aircraft is engaged, is it then expected to reduce speed, disgorge it's content, increase speed and take off or taxi to the nearest apron?
 
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John Sansom

New Member
I'm not quite sure what Roberto means about the UK "starting" a crisis in the Falklands. Presumably, if the Argentine were to invade. logic would most strongly suggest that it is precisely not (I say again...not) the UK which would be initiating the crisis.

Of course, what's interesting about the comment is the implied mindset; an important consideration indicating a need to firm up public support for an invasion.

As for a lack of EU support for a British reaction to an Argentinian invasion..... Internally, it would be the kiss of death for a British government to be seen deserting British citizens because of antipathy on the part of EU legislators. This is most decidedly a case where the political rubber would be hitting the military road.

Of course, all this is speculative fancy...right?
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Assuming as soon as the first Herc begins disembarking it's SF units the aircraft is engaged, is it then expected to reduce speed, disgorge it's content, increase speed and take off or taxi to the nearest apron?
I can't say I've gone into it in the detail at which you request, nor am I qualified or familiar with flying tactical landings. I'm sure anyone can look up some details about the Entebbe Raid to see how quickly you can bring a bunch of Hercs into a runway. Remember its just a perfectly normal, long, fully lit runway in the middle of a cold day. While the Hercs are uninvited and gunning it the chance of an accident that would block the runway is very low. I would imagine each Herc is carrying two Special Operations Vehicles (gun buggies) and 60 or so SOF operators. I don't even know the layout of the runway so its possible after landing the Hercs could use the taxiways to rumble up to the Tornado dispersal area, GBAD location, Control Tower and the garrison location and then drop their ramps and offload.

All of this is going to take seconds and minutes and is far below the reaction time for the garrison to mobilise form up and fight them off in an organised way.
 
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