Fighting a Second Falklands War

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John Sansom

New Member
Abraham Gubler has certainly stirred up a hornets' nest of opinion in his admitted "fancy" on how Argentina might physically rreclaim the Falklands (Malvenas).

In my own callow way, I asked him in my last posting just what his "real" plan might be. Subsequent to a decidedly sobering moment or two of reflection, it's not a bad question....really.

Can any of us nay sayers come up with a possibly sensible approach for an Argentinian military return with some prospect of success?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I've not called anyone an idiot, nor have I posted anything, before this morning, which remotely belittled anyone else's opinions...
Yes, agreed. I have enjoyed reading your other posts.

Cooch said:
You have jumped into the middle of an ongoing discussion with a claim that a succesful surprise attack by the Argentinians is probable, thereby ignoring the considerable body of evidence which has already been presented to the contrary.
Not having read enough, I certainly do not feel qualified to comment on UK's defence posture on the on the Falkland Islands. However, please indulge me and allow me to restate 3 points for your consideration:

(i) I'm just reminding everyone in this thread to remain civil (it is very interesting, so let's keep it going).

(ii) There are a number of like-minded participants on this topic (this would include citizen578, Peter and riksavage). For those who believe the Argentina cannot invade the Falklands Islands again could be in a group think mode (and therefore could be wrong). Please engage in some reflexivity and consider the possibility.

(iii) From my point of view, any attempt to defend any air field with a battalion sized force (without the possibility of quick reinforcement) is inadequate. Any attempt to defend any air field with a company sized force is woefully inadequate.

If a certain aspect of the UK's defence posture in the Falkland Islands is woefully inadequate (when viewed by someone outside of the debate), you may need to reconsider Abraham's considered point of view, rather than just asking him to provide you with various possible invasion scenarios.

Peter, is it possible, that what you describe as a "considerable body of evidence" could be called more accurately called 'considered opinions' rather than evidence?
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
Continuously comparing the Israeli occupation and subsequent evacuation of Gaza to an Argentine forced evacuation of the Falklands is idiotic by virtue of Israeli's proximity to Gaza (short drive) when compared with that of the Argentine mainland to the Falklands, some 300*miles or 480*km over open sea. This represents a major logistical headache for a country with obsolete and poorly equipped military resources manned by a higher command with limited expeditionary experience.

The UK's ability t o reachout and touch an enemey has improved dramitically since 82 the Argentines has deteriorated.

Now lets look at the mythical 'surprise attack', you bassically have two options here:

Covert: SF via submarine incursion or from small boats infiltrated via civi ship (highly unlikely), and / or;

Massed air attack to saturate the air defences prior to an airborne / heleborne / amphib landing in and around Port Stanley / Mount Pleasant.

The first covert option limits the Argentines to a small group of SF, less than a troop in strength due to the physical size of the current fleet of submarines. Attempting a landing form a civi ship using deception carries huge risks and requires the team to disembark too far from shore in conditions which can deteriorate very quickly (four seasons in one day). Assumptions have been made that the UK Garrison spends all its time sitting around Mount Pleasant, which is absolute and utter rubbish. The resident Infantry Fighting Company utilises its time on the island to conduct standing and fighting patrols, live firing exercises and familiarising itself with both West and East Falklands. The local population provides a comprehensive natural surveillance capability feeding intelligence through to the military int cell. I believe any covert incursion will carry a high risk of being detected (by the local population) and subsequently suppressed. The Mount Pleasant airbase has its own RAF Regiment defense unit, which allows the Infantry Company to conduct any counter attack operations supported by mortar's / MMG's / Javelin. The UK full-time and part-time (reserves) know the ground, the Argentines DO NOT.

An overt airstrike will have to deal with the Tornado Flight (flown by experienced crews), Rapier and Starstreak batteries. I would expect to see at 5 to 1 (conservative assumption) attrition rate in favour of UK air assets based on 1982 figures. This would also be a very costly option for Argentina, should the high-attrition rate not provide results very early on. Please remind me again what the Argentine airforce carries to deal with the F3's Flying CAP?

The resident UK Battalion on 24-7 permanent standby, including artillery assets to man the 105mm's already placed on the island will take 18hrs to fly from Brize Norton to Mount Pleasant (C17). This means the Argentines have to have captured and secured the airfield in that time. A don't beleive the current military in Argentina have the 'balls' to take that risk. Plus you can expect further F3 or Eurofighter reinforcements flying via Ascention mid-air refueling enroute.

Before the Argentines even begin this extremely risky gamble they must take into consideration whether or not a Tomahawk capable submarine is in the area, which could begin hitting accommodation blocks located on the mainland containing the pilots assigned to fly strike missions against the Falklands - kill the man not the machine.

The UK Now has ASTOR which can be launched from Ascension which will provide unparalleled real time surveillance to Northwood of all movements in and around any airbase tasked with flying in soldiers to the island. Again I would use Tomahawk to hit barracks, staging areas and parked aircraft on the Argentine mainland to remove their ability to sustain an invasion and further demonstrate to the Argentine people that any attack on British sovereign territory will meet with a similar response.

All of the above is irrelevant of course because GCHQ (Echelon) and other strategic intelligence assets (UK & US) will pick-up on the surprise invasion early on in the game and a quiet word from the British Embassador to Argentina reminding them that a Trafalgar / Astute class sub is operating in the area (true or not doesn't matter) which will retaliate against the mainland should they persist with such tomfoolery.

Look forward to a realistic response based on current Argentine military and logistical capabilites - fact not fantasy please!
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Continuously comparing the Israeli occupation and subsequent evacuation of Gaza to an Argentine forced evacuation of the Falklands is idiotic by virtue of Israeli's proximity to Gaza (short drive) when compared with that of the Argentine mainland to the Falklands, some 300*miles or 480*km over open sea. This represents a major logistical headache for a country with obsolete and poorly equipped military resources manned by a higher command with limited expeditionary experience.
You are trying to fit the example into your preconception. I don’t think anyone in the IDF involved in the Gaza evacuation were too worried about the logistics of busing the evacuees out of the strip. The areas of problem were subduing the population and doing so with a million Palestinians nearby wanting to attack them all. The logistics for Argentina are not so extreme as they can just use civil air assets to transport the population. This will only take 30 flights from even a narrow body civil transport (737) for 3,000 people. It’s hardly a break back situation even for the Argentinean military which is hardly as decrepit as you make out.

Now lets look at the mythical 'surprise attack', you bassically have two options here:
Your options are flawed because you have no realistic concept of the readiness posture of the British garrison. If the first strategic and tactical alert they have to an impending attack is 20 minutes warning from a radar detecting a force of inbound helicopters its game over. 20 minutes is not enough time for the command and control cycle to order the launching of a fighter, readiness of a SAM battery or deployment of an infantry company. Not to mention enough time for these assets to be ready to defend the islands.

Your entire concept of the defence of the Falklands relies on a high level of readiness by the British garrison. It lacks the size to maintain this readiness 24-7 without an intelligence warning. You assume that the British intelligence gathering capability can provide this warning. GCHQ has no capability to intercept written orders handed out by couriers. British intelligence only provided a day or two warning to the original Falklands attack because that involved most of the Argentinean Navy.

Before the Argentines even begin this extremely risky gamble they must take into consideration whether or not a Tomahawk capable submarine is in the area, which could begin hitting accommodation blocks located on the mainland containing the pilots assigned to fly strike missions against the Falklands - kill the man not the machine.
There’s no gamble. The British submarine fleet is too small to maintain a permanently deployed submarine. It is also very unlikely that even if they did the Government would authorise TLAM attacks. What are they going to strike with a handful (~8) missiles? Attacking the Argentinean mainland would be an escalation and the kind of damage a single submarine could do would not affect my scenario because it’s not based around use of conventional military force.

Mod edit: Text deleted. In the real world things are a lot harder and require a lot more effort to maintain a watchful guard against surprise.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
I can assure you my knowledge of what's happening in the Falklands far exceeds yours my friend, I still have peers who are serving in the UK military at command levels who have taken part in refoger exercises and have also conducted tabletop studies at staff college covering the full spectrum of scenarios available to the Argentine military in its current form. So please refrain form your over simplistic Tom Clancy comparisons.

Now use your so called 'analytical knowledge and professional expertise' and give me a realistic overview of the current Argentine ORBAT and explain to me, based on their current readiness, training and planning doctrine (not changed since 82) how they would carry-out a surprise attack, and with what resources (land, sea and air)? Please do your research first, and come back with facts not generic references to civi airliners.

Oh and why if you are so confident the Argies are capable of taking over the Island they haven't already done so, after all they claim it's their divine right and a matter of national priority?

Dream on! :eek:nfloorl:
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Now lets look at the mythical 'surprise attack', you basically have two options here:

(i) Covert: SF via submarine incursion or from small boats infiltrated via civi ship (highly unlikely), and / or;

(ii) Massed air attack to saturate the air defences prior to an airborne / heleborne / amphib landing in and around Port Stanley / Mount Pleasant.

The first covert option limits the Argentines to a small group of SF, less than a troop in strength due to the physical size of the current fleet of submarines. Attempting a landing form a civi ship using deception carries huge risks and requires the team to disembark too far from shore in conditions which can deteriorate very quickly (four seasons in one day). Assumptions have been made that the UK Garrison spends all its time sitting around Mount Pleasant, which is absolute and utter rubbish. The resident Infantry Fighting Company utilises its time on the island to conduct standing and fighting patrols, live firing exercises and familiarising itself with both West and East Falklands. The local population provides a comprehensive natural surveillance capability feeding intelligence through to the military int cell. I believe any covert incursion will carry a high risk of being detected (by the local population) and subsequently suppressed. The Mount Pleasant airbase has its own RAF Regiment defense unit, which allows the Infantry Company to conduct any counter attack operations supported by mortar's / MMG's / Javelin. The UK full-time and part-time (reserves) know the ground, the Argentines DO NOT.

An overt airstrike will have to deal with the Tornado Flight (flown by experienced crews), Rapier and Starstreak batteries. I would expect to see at 5 to 1 (conservative assumption) attrition rate in favour of UK air assets based on 1982 figures. This would also be a very costly option for Argentina, should the high-attrition rate not provide results very early on. Please remind me again what the Argentine airforce carries to deal with the F3's Flying CAP?

The resident UK Battalion on 24-7 permanent standby, including artillery assets to man the 105mm's already placed on the island will take 18hrs to fly from Brize Norton to Mount Pleasant (C17). This means the Argentines have to have captured and secured the airfield in that time. A don't beleive the current military in Argentina have the 'balls' to take that risk. Plus you can expect further F3 or Eurofighter reinforcements flying via Ascention mid-air refueling enroute.
I do not agree with your line of reasoning here. There are 4 main reasons, why I disagree:

(i) Your argument assumes that there are only 2 main options and that the opponent will behave in a conventional predictable manner. This approach to defence planning is not realistic (objectively speaking) or greatly over simplified. I'm sure the UK forces on the Falkland Islands train for a much wider range of scenarios.

(ii) To some extend your arguments highlight the logistical difficulties that would be faced by an attacking force. However, your argument also fails to deal with the logistical difficulties faced by the UK forces. The UK forces are spread out and thus vulnerable to a well though-out attack plan. Further, there is a possibility that certain forces can be 'cut-off'. May I suggest that you take a more rounded approach in building your scenarios.

(iii) Every defence asset has its own strengths and its own weaknesses. I would assume that any attacking force has had the time to wargame the various scenarios (until they are satisfied that their plan works). If the aggressor does not like their current game plan, no attack is likely. Hence no defence is necessary (which means the deterrence worked).

(iv) The larger the defence force, the harder it becomes for the attacker. The larger the number of defenders, the options available to the defenders will become more varied. The smaller the defence force, the more likely the aggressor will be able to use operational art to predict the likely defence plan and also to gain the initiative. (Actually, I'm sure you are aware of these ideas but if I don't mention them, I would be remiss to the layman reader).

If you don't mind, I'm not talking about a specific disagreement with your line of reasoning. What I have is: 'A general conceptual disagreement with your line of reasoning.'

You will notice, I have avoided a specific disagreement with you generated scenarios. I hope I have not come across as arrogant (or very ill informed). If I have, please accept my apologies in advance and I stand ready to be corrected.

Before the Argentines even begin this extremely risky gamble they must take into consideration whether or not a Tomahawk capable submarine is in the area, which could begin hitting accommodation blocks located on the mainland containing the pilots assigned to fly strike missions against the Falklands - kill the man not the machine.
I don't think this is a valid assumption. If I were the attacking force, I could easily take measures to protect my air force pilots from a Tomahawk strike. Again I do not want to go into specific details.

The UK Now has ASTOR which can be launched from Ascension which will provide unparalleled real time surveillance to Northwood of all movements in and around any airbase tasked with flying in soldiers to the island. Again I would use Tomahawk to hit barracks, staging areas and parked aircraft on the Argentine mainland to remove their ability to sustain an invasion and further demonstrate to the Argentine people that any attack on British sovereign territory will meet with a similar response.
Remember what I said earlier, every defence asset has a weakness. An ASTOR would need to be defended, if you are facing determined opposition.

If you want to assume that the opposition is lacking basic reasoning skills, then yes, in all scenarios the aggressor will be repelled.

Is that a good starting point for any analysis?
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
I'm getting very bored of this. Instead of skimming the surface please provide more detailed information pertaining to how the Argentines will move a force undetected to the Island before the existing assets (small as the may be) are able to mobilize a credible response based on existing land, sea and air assets on the island.

A well equipped ,trained unit, positioned in ground known to him, fully supported by the local population will require at least a 3 to 1 ratio of attacker to defender to dislodge. So this means a Battalion strength of troops will be needed to gain a foothold on the Islands to have a realistic chance of defeating a well equipped motivated fighting company and also establish a defensible perimeter to allow for continuous air supplies D & D + 1. Not forgetting that the reserve force will begin to mobilise once the regular infantry company is stood-to.

How are you going to land and support a Battalion on the Islands without being detected? How will you prevent the assets delivering this unit (ship, helo or C130) being shot down or sunk by the assets on the Island who have a comprehensive surveillance radar in situ. The UK has planned, and one can only assume they studied this in more detail then any of us, that the Argentine military in their current guise are unable to infiltrate (covert or overt) enough resources on the ground before reinforcements arrive. 4 x C17's can parachute in at least one UK Para Battalion (18-hour transit time), which would then require the Argentines to move in at least a Brigade to take on such a force which has an excellent knowledge of the ground and is pre-postioned according to plans already rehearsed infinitum

I will say this one more time, go away, study the current Argentine ORBAT and come back to me with factual numbers, units and assets, which the Argentines currently have to overcome the incumbent garrison.

Your comment about ASTOR unfortunately shows your lack of knowledge it is designed to fly at high-altitude and utilise a side-scan radar based on the U2 system.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
riksavage said:
The UK Now has ASTOR which can be launched from Ascension which will provide unparalleled real time surveillance to Northwood of all movements in and around any airbase tasked with flying in soldiers to the island...
OPSSG said:
Remember what I said earlier, every defence asset has a weakness. An ASTOR would need to be defended, if you are facing determined opposition.
Your comment about ASTOR unfortunately shows your lack of knowledge it is designed to fly at high-altitude and utilise a side-scan radar based on the U2 system.
Sorry about the noob question.

When you are talking about ASTOR, are you talking about the airborne stand-off radar (ASTOR), which is installed in Bombadier Global Express business jets for the UK?
 
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Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Gday All,
I have read the previous discussion with great interest. It is a very lively debate as to whether the Argentinians would be able to invade the Falklands and then as to whether the British would be able to retake them.
I am not saying for an instant the Argies would be able to take the Falklands, I don't believe with their current orbat that they would be able to successfully. All I am doing is putting forward a way, albeit an unlikely to succeed plan. I have no knowledge of the current defensive state of the British forces on the islands, this way asumes that they are rather lax, extremely remote I know.
In 1997 a fiction novel was released here in Oz called "Falklands 2" by Jim Thorn, not sure if anyone has read it. It is quite a fun read if rather hypothetical. Jim puts forward the idea that the Argies have managed to take the Falklands by inserting special forces by a variety of means at night, both capturing Mount Pleasant and the radar on Mount Kent. Once these had been taken, further forces were called in, mainly Hercs that had been loitering outside radar coverage. Further heavy forces where brought in by ship that were also over the horizon.
Jim Thorn's main idea for the covert insertion of troops was for a number, around 40, to have been flown in as tourists disguised as Chilean, Brazilian hikers. They then went out in the wildnerness, recovered caches of weapons dropped off by sub, then took the radar on Mount Kent. MPA was taken by troops that had been hidden onboard a Peruvian registered fish factory ship, around 100, that had come into harbour with "mechanical difficulties." They then came ashore and captured the garrisons through a variety of non-lethal means, eg sleeping gas etc. Other radars where also captured by teams landed by sub. Once MPA was taken, Argie fighters were then flown in aswell.

Please remember what I have just written is a flight of fancy, I am not for one instant advocating that it is possible, just putting out someone else's entertaining idea. I am just interested in comments if anyone has thoughts on the merits of it. I do know that Argentina would need a substantial boost for its armed forces before even contemplating anything of the sort.
But, if, hypothetically, by some chance, they did pull it off, does the British currently have the capibilty right now to take them back???
This is with no Sea Harriers, only 1 Type 45 etc and with the Argies in possession of Mount Pleasant with fighters based there.
I welcome all comments and am currently standing by in anti-flash :)
Cheers
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Correct, see below:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/sentinelr1.cfm

In 1982 the Island was garrisoned by 82 RM personnel armed with GPMG's. LMG's, SLR's and Garl Gustavs. They had no air-support of sophisticated advance warning equipment in their tool box. Once the Ice Patrol Ship Endurance left the then Argentine Military Junta decided to invade on the assumption that the UK Government would roll over - how wrong they were.

Today you have a military infrastructure on the Island geared to the monitoring of the surrounding exclusion zone and able to deploy it's limited assets anywhere on the Island through a new and improved infrastructure supported by its own helo support. The airfield is designed to cater for reinforcements landed by air within a very short period of time, or worst case scenario dropped by parachute. Surveillance, both air and ground, backed up by strategic intelligence will provide advance warning allowing the UK to inflict severe casualties on any invading force way above what was achieved by the Royal Marines in 82.

Pre-positioned weapons available to the ground defenders, include, but are not limited to: 105mm artillery, Javelin, 81mm mortars, GPMG, 50.Cal, etc. etc. plus a flight of F3's Starstreak and Rapier manned and defended by an independent RAF Reg assets.

Argentina today is ruled by a civilian Government, which does not have the support or will to mount a military attack against an Island, which is better prepared than it was in 82. Even if the civilain Government suddenly decided to have a go we would see increased postering in the Argentine press and increased 'chatter' amongst the military. The UK would then simply stage an 'exercise' and bring to the Island a company battle-group and fly in additional F3's / Eurofighters. As each 24-hour period passed the Islands would get increasingly stronger making the invasion even more complex.

Also of importance is in 82 the only practical means the UK had to reinforce the Island in large numbers was to bring in troops by ship, today they can arrive by air with very little fuss (assuming the shooting war has not already started).
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Oh and why if you are so confident the Argies are capable of taking over the Island they haven't already done so, after all they claim it's their divine right and a matter of national priority?
Where did I say this is something they can do tomorrow? This thread is what's called a hypothetical in which a question is postulated that is counter-factual and opinions sought. You seem to be of the opinion that someone needs to quote the Argentinian Army staff paper study number and hold up examples of their mission rehearsal exercises before being able to offer any response to the original question.

Mod edit: Text deleted.
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A well equipped ,trained unit, positioned in ground known to him, fully supported by the local population will require at least a 3 to 1 ratio of attacker to defender to dislodge. So this means a Battalion strength of troops will be needed to gain a foothold on the Islands to have a realistic chance of defeating a well equipped motivated fighting company and also establish a defensible perimeter to allow for continuous air supplies D & D + 1. Not forgetting that the reserve force will begin to mobilise once the regular infantry company is stood-to.
As I mentioned earlier you are assuming the British garrison is mobilised and in a high state of readiness to defend the island. This posture is not maintained 24-7-52. Most of the time the greater majority of the British garrison is in doors sleeping and eating not standing to in gun pits to fight off the impending Falklands sequel!

With the size of the garrison it would be unlikely that at the worst of times they would have more than 20-30 soldiers and airman at their posts ready to defend the island. If there is no intelligence warning of a surprise attack the first think most of the defenders will know about it is when they hear gunfire. By then its far too late. Initiative is always in the hands of the attacker.

The capability of the British garrison is effectively maintenance of sovereignty not to defend against an invasion. For that they would need at least a battlegroup sized joint task force. While it provides an adequate presence to secure for incoming reinforcement this relies strongly on intelligence providing warning of an attack. Since in the real world the political will is apparently lacking for such an engagement in Argentina it is more than enough. Hypothetically but it is not invulnerable to all possible threats.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Abraham Gubler has certainly stirred up a hornets' nest of opinion in his admitted "fancy" on how Argentina might physically rreclaim the Falklands (Malvenas).

In my own callow way, I asked him in my last posting just what his "real" plan might be. Subsequent to a decidedly sobering moment or two of reflection, it's not a bad question....really.

Can any of us nay sayers come up with a possibly sensible approach for an Argentinian military return with some prospect of success?
I am actually working on a possible scenario whereby Argentina could manage to seize the Falklands again. I have not read the book Pusser01 mentioned, but the initial action I was envisioning does seem similar. Also, what I have been thinking of is fraught with risk for the Argentine force, and is not something I would consider a 'reasonable' plan for success. Granted, it is not a 'Hail Mary' type of plan, but would not be something I would think most responsable military commanders would endorse. Once I have it finished, I will post it.

Also, can someone provide a fairly recent/accurate OrBat for Argentina, particularly the Air Force? I have been working from a collection of different sources as well as Wiki...:shudder

With regards to some of OPSSG's comments...

In terms of a battalion (or company for that matter) being insufficient to defend an airfield, it really depends on who/what the attacker is. In the case of the Falkland Islands, seems to be revolving around two critical issues. The first issue is if Argentina can transport a sufficiently large number of troops and supplies to where it would be needed fast enough to achieve an initial victory in the Falklands. The second issue, which relates to the first, is if Argentina can do so without being detected long enough to prevent a British response prior to any defensive measures Argentina would take.

Given what the current Air Force and Naval OrBat appears to be, it does seem questionable just how quickly Argentina could get personnel to the Falklands.

I will have more once I have done some additional reading and fleshed out what my thinking is.

-Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Firstly they capture the islands with a surprise attack. Secondly they deploy a specially constructed and highly trained military police unit of about 500. They are equipped with a range of non-lethal weapons and supported by CIMIC, PYSOPS, medical and supporting units. This special MP unit simply starts rounding up the Falkland Islanders and transporting them to the airport where they are flown out of the islands. There are only 3,000 civilians there so it should take much longer than a week or two with special attention to making sure no one is hurt. The population can then be transferred to Brazil or some third party for repatriation to the UK. Careful attention can be given to compensating them for whatever assets they had to leave behind in the Falklands.

With no population of British subjects resident on the islands it would be extremely difficult for the British Government to muster the will to liberate simple rock, grass, peat, sheep and natural resources – no matter how valuable. The Argentineans can quickly inject their own domestic population into the Malvinas.
I have been reading (or re-reading I think...) "The Battle for the Falklands" by Max Hasting and Simon Jenkins, First American Edition 1983 and in it mentioned something called 'Plan Goa'. This an Argentinian war plan to recover the Falklands that was drawn up some in either the late 60's and/or early 70's by Admiral Emilio Massera (head of Navy c. 1973) and then-Captain Jorge Anaya (later head of Navy in 1982). The book notes that it was believed that as part of the plan in 'Plan Goa' was the total removal of the existing population of the Falklands to Montevideo and replacement done by Argentine settlers.

Interesting to see that some Argentinians had the idea thirty or forty years ago...

-Cheers
 

Cooch

Active Member
As I mentioned earlier you are assuming the British garrison is mobilised and in a high state of readiness to defend the island. This posture is not maintained 24-7-52. Most of the time the greater majority of the British garrison is in doors sleeping and eating not standing to in gun pits to fight off the impending Falklands sequel!
My reading on this is small, but I seem to recall that this what what the Argentines expected in '82. After pouring a considerable volume of fire into the Royal Marine barracks (the Argentines claimed that they used teargas, but the bullet-holes indicate otherwise) they realised that the Marines were elsewhere.

It's a practical demonstration of why I'm sceptical WRT the proposition of a cheap, easy and relatively bloodless Argentine invasion. It seems to rely on the Brits not being very bright, and everything going perfectly to plan.

If things do not work perfectly for the Argentines, then - as I believe I mentioned before - the potential for things to get bloody and expensive is rather large, which alters the entire political dynamic that you're trying to create with your proposed evacuation.

I am unsurprised at riksavage's asserion that the Brit military has assessed the situation, including their own strengths and weaknesses. It is only what I would expect of them, just as I expect that the Argentine military assesses their ability to carry out an invasion if required by their government.

My personal position on this subject is that most things are possible, but some things are much less probable than others.

Peter (Neither English, nor an anglophile)
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The Argentines do not have the confidence to mimic what the UK did in 82, that is to land far away from Port Stanley out of artillery range then yomp to the final objective taking successive defensive positions down one by one with the bullet and the bayonet supported by creeping artillery fire. The Argentine doctrine is and remains to this day to strike as close to the Capital as possible. After all 90% population lives in and around Port Stanley.

Critical to the Argentines plan will be to capture the airfield and port intact to allow for the rapid insertion of reinforcements. This means they must nutralise the existing air defences and prevent the 105mm's / mortars and Javelin firing posts being positioned to cover any landing zones suitable for amphibious / airborne forces, thus providing the defenders with DEFENCE IN DEPTH. To do this they must land significant numbers of SF who are able to overwhelm the on-duty defenders without being detected, or before the stand-to is given. Difficult task due to the extensive ground and air radar utilised.

Like any military base not all units will be fast asleep, plus the Infantry Fighting Companies who spend six weeks in the Falklands are there not just to provide a QRF but to make use of the extensive training and range facilities. So it is highly likely that at any one time one platoon out of three will be out night and day making use of the excellent facilities.

My question remains - how are significant numbers of attackers going to arrive without being detected? A submarine cannot lift enough personnel to take on the existing defences, it may be able to deploy OP's, but they will increase the risk of detection the closer they come to the urban areas. Anyone who has spent time the islands appreciates its' a pretty unforgiving environment and provides little cover for OP's forced to stick it out in extreme weather conditions. :(
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Here is a scenario for a surprise attack carried out by Argentinean current forces in order to take down RAF Mount Pleasant. Other simultaneous operations and follow on forces may be conducted to close Stanley airfield and disrupt other key British capabilities but this scenario is focused on Mount Pleasant.

The battalion sized 601 Air Assault Regiment (SOF) would be landed on RAF Mount Pleasant in a surprise coupe de main attack by a force - mixed if need be - of Argentinean airlifters. Hercs would be best as they provide rapid offloading and the capability to carry some light strike vehicles. Six Hercs would be enough for a battalion of operators (300-400) and 12 gun buggies. Even with only 1-2 serviceable Hercs there are plenty of other airlifters - F28s, VIP aircraft, etc - that could be used.

The airlifters would operate without any radio communications using line of sight laser communications only for station keeping. These can be brought commercially of the shelf and used through windows. They would fly around the Falklands under the radar and approach from the east providing no warning time until they are approaching for landing at Mount Pleasant. This way no effective resistance could be offered by the Tornado and Rapier units. Since it’s a one way trip range is not a problem.

Timing of the operation would be for the middle of winter to insure the maximum number of the garrison are indoors and with intelligence warning to make sure no units are deployed for training. Landing would be timed to be just before a scheduled commercial flight which are twice weekly. LAN Chile flight arrives at 1:30pm every Saturday. False LAN mayday signals could be broadcast just before the Argentineans arrive in order to further confuse the situation. This way the airfield would be open and ready for landing and the British would not have time to close the runway.

Once aground the airlifters would stack up at the end of the runway and the assault force would deploy to take down the base. Without intelligence leaks warning time would be negligible (a few minutes at best) and the British garrison would be overrun very quickly or disrupted enough to be mopped up by the follow on forces. The runways could be blocked denying a fly in of reinforcements.
 

Abraham Gubler

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I have been reading (or re-reading I think...) "The Battle for the Falklands" by Max Hasting and Simon Jenkins, First American Edition 1983 and in it mentioned something called 'Plan Goa'. This an Argentinian war plan to recover the Falklands that was drawn up some in either the late 60's and/or early 70's by Admiral Emilio Massera (head of Navy c. 1973) and then-Captain Jorge Anaya (later head of Navy in 1982). The book notes that it was believed that as part of the plan in 'Plan Goa' was the total removal of the existing population of the Falklands to Montevideo and replacement done by Argentine settlers.
Much of that book's perspective of the Argentinean side is worthless. There is a much better book by Martin Middlebrook called "The Argentine Fight For The Falklands". Here he actually went to Argentinia and spoke to a lot of the people invovled a decade or so after the war so got some decent answers.

I can't speak for the Operation Goa but the actual invasion plan was for much later in 1982 after the British had decommissioned some further assets and the Argentinian Army was better trained. It was brought forward because of the scrap iron confrontation.
 

Abraham Gubler

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My reading on this is small, but I seem to recall that this what what the Argentines expected in '82. After pouring a considerable volume of fire into the Royal Marine barracks (the Argentines claimed that they used teargas, but the bullet-holes indicate otherwise) they realised that the Marines were elsewhere.
Which was because the British had intelligence fore warning because the Argentineans had sailed their entire fleet in a conventional invasion approach. Without that intelligence warning the Royal Marines would have been in the barracks and shot to crap.
 

Abraham Gubler

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Like any military base not all units will be fast asleep, plus the Infantry Fighting Companies who spend six weeks in the Falklands are there not just to provide a QRF but to make use of the extensive training and range facilities. So it is highly likely that at any one time one platoon out of three will be out night and day making use of the excellent facilities.
Well that actually makes it easier. If a platoon is out doing live fires they are not at the base able to defend it. The entire concept of a coup de main is to close down the air base so the fighters and rapiers can't be deployed and so reinforcements can't land 24 hours later. If there are a few fragmented units around the islands then they are cut of from supply and easy for the follow on force to be mop them up.
 
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