could we rebuild

t68

Well-Known Member
In people’s opinion could Australia recover from a preemptive surprise attack on military targets on the east coast in a similar situation as Pearl Harbour 1941?

In this scenario it is confined to military installations in Sydney, Newcastle

Fleet base east is severely damaged, east coast fleet were tied up with the majority sunk within the harbour, Holdsworthy/Morebank destroyed, RAAF Richmond c130 Hercules fleet destroyed, RAAF Williamstown severely damaged hornet fleet destroyed , RAN armaments depot Orchard hills destroyed and mymbat joint armaments depot destroyed in the hunter valley, small arms factory Lithgow damaged.

In this scenario i am not looking at how a surface fleet could get of the east coast undetected, but how would we cope from a peacetime economy/workforce to full wartime footing.


Does Australia have the infrastructure to rebuild enough shipping in a short time frame to conduct war?
Are we capable of building legacy hornet or super hornets in Australia?
Could we build small arms / artillery?
The list is end list

I am looking at this from a rebuilding phase and from a nation on full war footing and our ability to make war.

Your thoughts on how and what we could achieve in reality
 

waraich

Banned Member
My dear this is era of economic warfare and you are talking about development of new weapons.

We have recently examples of down fall of three super powers .I dont think Russia will never try to rebuild their war machine.Similarly after complete collapse of UK big army in WW2 has also changed his aggressive strategy.

Third dying super power is USA as a result of extra ordinary spending on weapons development and unneccessary involvement in other countries.Now they facing defeat from the poorest nation of world Afghanistan:D

Admin: Please note the subject title as explained in the original post. It's a specific discussion issue - not generalist. This post has nothing to do with "Superpowers"
 
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t68

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
My dear this is era of economic warfare and you are talking about development of new weapons.

We have recently examples of down fall of three super powers .I dont think Russia will never try to rebuild their war machine.Similarly after complete collapse of UK big army in WW2 has also changed his aggressive strategy.

Third dying super power is USA as a result of extra ordinary spending on weapons development and unneccessary involvement in other countries.Now they facing defeat from the poorest nation of world Afghanistan:D

I am talking about our industrial base here in Australia.
Do we have the capability to rebuild the military in a short time frame if we were taken by surprise? (Skills set, mass production of military hardware)

The US in 1941 took about 12/15 months to get the pacific fleet reorganized into an offensive fleet capable of taking the fight to the IJNavy
 

ASFC

New Member
Similarly after complete collapse of UK big army in WW2 has also changed his aggressive strategy.
The UK has never had a big Army except during WW1, in fact the British Armed Forces claim to fame in history was its ability to build a large navy and maintain a large Empire. Ergo the Royal Navy is still one of the worlds best navies, but then that is going into off-topic areas and probably against the rules to discuss!

I would also argue that the UK was never a 'Superpower', as that is generally a post WW2 term (among other reasons like the lack of Nukes and the different contexts in which the three powers existed).
 

Zen

New Member
Indonesia Attack

Surely the question must be prefaced by: ‘Attacked by whom?’

In my view the most likely attack on Australia will come from a population rich and resource poor Indonesia.

In the event that Indonesia decides to Invade Australia all it would need to do would be to knock out the Australian Navy and create an anti-aircraft denial area in the North while a bridgehead was secured.

To eventually conquer Australia Indonesia would only need to establish an effective military bridgehead in the North. It could then carry out a state-by-state occupation backed up by population transfers from Java.

Indonesia is buying or showing interest in buying submarines from several countries; Russia, Germany, China, Korea and others. These would be used in an initial attack and then as deterrence against NATO navies coming to the assistance of Australia.

Due to recent negotiations between Iran and Indonesia, the latter might conceivably have access to non-conventional weapons within five years.

In light of this I would argue that evacuation not rebuilding the military would be the prime concern after the Australian Navy was destroyed by Indonesia.
 

der_Master

New Member
I do not think Indonesia would stand a chance against Australia. Even if it did somehow launch a surprise attack like you stated Australia would probably repel it (with better navy, and way better air force and overall training and equipment). However if this did not happen the US, Canada, Britain and many other countries would quickly help out Australia.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Blind Eyes

On other thread I have wrote that based on several sources, until 2020 the best that my country will build is minimum deterance capability with emphasis on patrolling strength.

Related on this thread, more appropriate questions (I believe) with limited Indonesian capability, if someone with much bigger asset decided to use Indonesian waters to get to Australia, could Australia maintain strong defence (especially in northern teritory) for considerable period ?
I believe if that kind scenario arrise, Indonesia, will turn blind eyes (and just sit and watch the development..well nothing else we can do..besides sit on our own fort).

Off course those scenario will only valid, if somehow the mighty USofA is soo strech up, that they can't lend a hand to their 'down under' allies...:)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
In people’s opinion could Australia recover from a preemptive surprise attack on military targets on the east coast in a similar situation as Pearl Harbour 1941?

In this scenario it is confined to military installations in Sydney, Newcastle

Fleet base east is severely damaged, east coast fleet were tied up with the majority sunk within the harbour, Holdsworthy/Morebank destroyed, RAAF Richmond c130 Hercules fleet destroyed, RAAF Williamstown severely damaged hornet fleet destroyed , RAN armaments depot Orchard hills destroyed and mymbat joint armaments depot destroyed in the hunter valley, small arms factory Lithgow damaged.

In this scenario i am not looking at how a surface fleet could get of the east coast undetected, but how would we cope from a peacetime economy/workforce to full wartime footing.


Does Australia have the infrastructure to rebuild enough shipping in a short time frame to conduct war?
Are we capable of building legacy hornet or super hornets in Australia?
Could we build small arms / artillery?
The list is end list

I am looking at this from a rebuilding phase and from a nation on full war footing and our ability to make war.

Your thoughts on how and what we could achieve in reality
I will attempt to answer this in the spirit the question seems to be asked in. I also would like to remind other posters that vs. threads (like Oz vs. Indonesia, etc) are against the forum rules. Also, specifically the following comment seems important to remember

In this scenario i am not looking at how a surface fleet could get of the east coast undetected, but how would we cope from a peacetime economy/workforce to full wartime footing.
That would seem to indicate that whom the attacker is, whom I will now refer to as Red Force, is unimportant with regards to the question being asked.

In terms of Australia making a fight of it, there IMO are a few things which would need to be clarified. So far, there seems to be fairly significant damage (or outright destruction) to ADF equipment, facilities and supporting infrastructure. I feel that in order to attempt an answer, I would need to know what Red Force is doing or does next, and in what sort of timeframe.

Also, it would be important to know what sort of reaction Australian allies and the rest of the world had to the attack(s).

If Red Force was conducting an objective raid, with the intent of weakening Oz by damaging and destroying assets, but not conducting any sort of ongoing or sustained campaign, I feel Oz could certainly rebuild. It would take time, and be a potentially painful enterprise, but could certainly be done.

OTOH, if the Red Force did or was going to conduct an ongoing campaign against Australia in the immediate or near future, and Australian allies did not become involved militarily or industrially, the Oz likely could not rebuild in time.

Taking the example given earlier, of the US war effort following Pearl Harbor, it was not really until nearly a year later, ~ November of 1942, that the US was able to start launching some counterattacks. It is also worth noting, that as a result of the war in Europe which started in 1939, the US had already begun to ramp up design and production of war material, which likely enabled the US to respond faster than it would have otherwise.

In the case of Australia, the situation is a bit more complicated that in the US in WWII. At present, the current aircraft and ships are a good deal more complicated than those used sixty years ago. Two side effects of the increase in complexity (aside from being more capable...) is that manufacture of the weapons/aircraft/ships/etc is more time consuming, and that the components used in manufacture are often sourced from all over the world.

Take the forthcoming AWD. It is a Spanish design, using a number of American made components (SPY-1D, Aegis, etc) that will undergo final assembly in Australia. IIRC once construction commences, it should take ~ 2 years from the laying of the keel to commissioning. Now, under wartime conditions, it might be possible to engage in 24 hour construction, and then to take some 'short cuts' in terms of sea trials, etc. It might, I repeat might, be possible to cut the time down to six months construction per ship, assuming all needed components are available as necessary. However, if FBE has been damaged as much as indicated, along with Sydney and Newcastle, then perhaps two thirds of the RAN fleet would need to be repaired or replaced. That could be something like four years of ship construction unless multiple yards are employed simultaneously, which could itself be difficult given that there seems to have been, if not currently be a shortaged of the appropriate skilled shipyard workers.

AFAIK, the situation would be even work with regards to aircraft construction. Australian industry is indeed involved in the airplane construction, but it is strickly as a source of aircraft subcomponents, it would be hard pressed to be able to develop or build the required cradle to grave component production facilty.

In point of fact, IMO if the US somehow ended up in a similar situation as the proposed Australian scenario, and/or a repeat of a Pearl Harbor attack in devastation, I do not think the US could rebuild that much power in time.

-Cheers
 

waraich

Banned Member
The UK has never had a big Army except during WW1, in fact the British Armed Forces claim to fame in history was its ability to build a large navy and maintain a large Empire. Ergo the Royal Navy is still one of the worlds best navies, but then that is going into off-topic areas and probably against the rules to discuss!

I would also argue that the UK was never a 'Superpower', as that is generally a post WW2 term (among other reasons like the lack of Nukes and the different contexts in which the three powers existed).
Great britan was super before world war II in term of their control on all major world sea trade routes and GDP ranking .

I dont think present UK navy is capable to play important role in any major international conflicts.

Mod edit: What does this have to do with the thread topic or title? The topic is about Australia's ability to recover and rebuild following a series of successful strikes upon ADF bases and other facilities on her eastern coast. As such, the UK and discussion of Powers or Superpowers are :eek:fftopic. This is the second time you have done this in this thread, after a Mod had commented, as such, Warning issued. Keep the discussion on topic, other wise additional warnings and/or other measures will be taken.
-Preceptor
 
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Zen

New Member
Red Force Alpha

Sorry I did not realise naming a country was against the rules; I’m a noob here.

Suppose Red Force (as Todjaeger names them) are from a highly populous country really near by (more men in their trained army than Australia has of fighting age in the entire country). Suppose as well that Red Force are not stupid enough to make a move until any Australian allies are seriously tied up elsewhere. Suppose that the purpose was to control the mineral wealth of Australia, especially the Uranium mines. Suppose too that the Allies of Red Force had furnished them with nuclear weapons.

I would suggest Australia in this event, is finished.

Australia has a tiny population. In the event that Red Force had five million men at arms then there is simply nothing Australia could do to either repel and initial attack or prevent State-by-State occupation. The population would have to escape or risk being enslaved.

I would suggest Australia goes nuclear very quickly; as the spread of this technology by ‘just capable’ and ‘nearly capable’ countries to countries like Red Force is inevitable. I doubt Red Force would use conventional weapons to destroy Australian Naval facilities in such a scenario: The gloves would be off from the get-go.
 

Zen

New Member
Royal Navy

Waraich said:
“I don’t think present UK navy is capable to play important role in any major international conflicts.”

Mate it is spelt Britain. The Royal Navy has nuclear submarines that pack many ballistic multiple warhead thermonuclear missiles. They pack a serious punch. Only three of four other navies have this ability so I would say you are not correct.

:nutkick
 

ASFC

New Member
I dont think present UK navy is capable to play important role in any major international conflicts.
I would like to see you explain that other than using the 'mine is bigger than yours' argument (because the RN is not the biggest). From where I am standing the RN is in the top 6 or 7.

Capability goes far beyond the numbers of Frigates or Destroyers, and Zen has already demonstrated on.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sorry I did not realise naming a country was against the rules; I’m a noob here.

Suppose Red Force (as Todjaeger names them) are from a highly populous country really near by (more men in their trained army than Australia has of fighting age in the entire country). Suppose as well that Red Force are not stupid enough to make a move until any Australian allies are seriously tied up elsewhere. Suppose that the purpose was to control the mineral wealth of Australia, especially the Uranium mines. Suppose too that the Allies of Red Force had furnished them with nuclear weapons.

I would suggest Australia in this event, is finished.

Australia has a tiny population. In the event that Red Force had five million men at arms then there is simply nothing Australia could do to either repel and initial attack or prevent State-by-State occupation. The population would have to escape or risk being enslaved.

I would suggest Australia goes nuclear very quickly; as the spread of this technology by ‘just capable’ and ‘nearly capable’ countries to countries like Red Force is inevitable. I doubt Red Force would use conventional weapons to destroy Australian Naval facilities in such a scenario: The gloves would be off from the get-go.
I think what T68 was attempting to ascertain was what amount, or to what degree, Australian industrial output could be used to rebuild or replace ADF facilities and kit, and if it could do so quickly enough in a crisis.

I used the name Red Force to denote a hostile foe, without having people fixate on a particular nation being the aggressor because people will then concentrate on Red Force's capabilities instead of Australia's capabilities. As I mentioned above in my post, the areas where I would be concerned about the Red Force capabilities and intentions are if they intend to occupy or destroy Australian industrial capacity, or interdict the flow of goods, and then in what sort of timeframe

If the circumstances are that Australia were to become involved in a high intensity conflict in the region, and damage listed in the first post occurred early on then IMO Australia would not be able to rebuild in time to make an impact. OTOH if the events were such that it was a longer termed conflict, and Australia was not immediately or repeatedly attacked again, then it could have time to switch to a war economy and repair or build up and develop sufficient industrial capacity.

As I see it at present, aside from insurgent movements and guerrilla warfare, warfare between developed nation-states at present is likely to be a high intensity event. Given the time needed construct most modern advanced weaponry, whatever gear a nation had at the start of a conflict is likely all that will be available to them during the conflict.

-Cheers
 

Cooch

Active Member
I think what T68 was attempting to ascertain was what amount, or to what degree, Australian industrial output could be used to rebuild or replace ADF facilities and kit, and if it could do so quickly enough in a crisis.

As I see it at present, aside from insurgent movements and guerrilla warfare, warfare between developed nation-states at present is likely to be a high intensity event. Given the time needed construct most modern advanced weaponry, whatever gear a nation had at the start of a conflict is likely all that will be available to them during the conflict.

-Cheers
I tend to agree.

While I suggest that Austrlia has the technological capacity to create weapons of at least average capability (Not everyone has F22s) the lead-time involved in creating the infrastructure and the skilled workforce would be longer than we are likely to have available given an enemy that is capable of destroying what we start with at the outset. If they can destroy our existing assets, then it is improbable that they would not continue to attack our industrial capacity to rebuild our military.

Given that we already purchase a high percentage of our big-ticket items (or parts and technology thereof) from overseas, it seems highly likely to me that we would be attempting to rebuild our capacity by purchase, rather than local production.

Peter
 

waraich

Banned Member
Waraich said:
“I don’t think present UK navy is capable to play important role in any major international conflicts.”

Mate it is spelt Britain. The Royal Navy has nuclear submarines that pack many ballistic multiple warhead thermonuclear missiles. They pack a serious punch. Only three of four other navies have this ability so I would say you are not correct.

:nutkick
Having nuke war heads with weak economy are not enough to play important role in victories in present wars .

Country like USA is in deep trouble financially due to prolong Afghanistan and Iraq wars.No country in the world can afford to fight long term war or continue occupation of country with out the will of people .War Toys have important role but upto certain limits.

Mod edit: First Warning Issued. As has been pointed out to you twice before in this thread, the discussion is about :australia Australia's ability to rebuild following a series of damaging strikes upon military and industrial facilities and infrastructure. The capabilities of the :uk UK or the :usa US are :eek:fftopic, as is discussion of occupying a country. Confine posts to the thread topic or further punative actions will be taken.
-Preceptor
 
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Cooch

Active Member
Having nuke war heads with weak economy are not enough to play important role in victories in present wars .

Country like USA is in deep trouble financially due to prolong Afghanistan and Iraq wars.No country in the world can afford to fight long term war or continue occupation of country with out the will of people .War Toys have important role but upto certain limits.
Despite request, you are off-topic again.

However.....
The assertion that the current economic difficulties being experienced by Australia, the US, or any other western nation have much to do with the cost of war-fighting has little or no support.

The level of current investment in war bears little resemblance to the capacity of any of these countries when their national existence is under threat. None of these countries is on a full war-footing, and the industrial and financial commitment to war at the moment is governed by political considerations.

As has been pointed out, any high-intensity conflict that fully utilises current technology is likely to be fought with the weapons and materiel available at the start of the conflict. It takes too long to build up to the point that wastage levels can be equalled by manufacturing capacity. Therefore, having current technology - including the ability to deploy nuclear weapons effectively - is highly relevant to the outcomes of high-intensity conflict where national survival is threatened.

Peter
 

t68

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
In the case of Australia, the situation is a bit more complicated that in the US in WWII. At present, the current aircraft and ships are a good deal more complicated than those used sixty years ago. Two side effects of the increase in complexity (aside from being more capable...) is that manufacture of the weapons/aircraft/ships/etc is more time consuming, and that the components used in manufacture are often sourced from all over the world.

Take the forthcoming AWD. It is a Spanish design, using a number of American made components (SPY-1D, Aegis, etc) that will undergo final assembly in Australia. IIRC once construction commences, it should take ~ 2 years from the laying of the keel to commissioning. Now, under wartime conditions, it might be possible to engage in 24 hour construction, and then to take some 'short cuts' in terms of sea trials, etc. It might, I repeat might, be possible to cut the time down to six months construction per ship, assuming all needed components are available as necessary. However, if FBE has been damaged as much as indicated, along with Sydney and Newcastle, then perhaps two thirds of the RAN fleet would need to be repaired or replaced. That could be something like four years of ship construction unless multiple yards are employed simultaneously, which could itself be difficult given that there seems to have been, if not currently be a shortaged of the appropriate skilled shipyard workers.

AFAIK, the situation would be even work with regards to aircraft construction. Australian industry is indeed involved in the airplane construction, but it is strickly as a source of aircraft subcomponents, it would be hard pressed to be able to develop or build the required cradle to grave component production facilty.

In point of fact, IMO if the US somehow ended up in a similar situation as the proposed Australian scenario, and/or a repeat of a Pearl Harbor attack in devastation, I do not think the US could rebuild that much power in time.

-Cheers
Todjaeger
Sorry for the late reply I only get to the computer once a week away with work commitments.

Your reply sums up exactly the information I was after, our infrastructure base is far too small to make an impact on rebuilding in such a small time frame.

I have not thought too much about the why and after action of red forces, I was more interested in our rebuilding capability in what sort of time frame we could realistically achieve, but with hindsight it does has a major impact on our response and ability.

My comparison of what the United States achieved in 1941/42 is a bit like chalk and cheese when you have the complexities of modern equipment.

The manufacturing of modern equipment such as radar/sonar and aircraft comes in kit form to Australia and is most probably beyond our capability to complete in house.

Skilled labour, in the event of going to a full wartime commitment comes with mass mobilization which industries do you exempt?
 

splat

Banned Member
In people’s opinion could Australia recover from a preemptive surprise attack on military targets on the east coast in a similar situation as Pearl Harbour 1941?

In this scenario it is confined to military installations in Sydney, Newcastle

Fleet base east is severely damaged, east coast fleet were tied up with the majority sunk within the harbour, Holdsworthy/Morebank destroyed, RAAF Richmond c130 Hercules fleet destroyed, RAAF Williamstown severely damaged hornet fleet destroyed , RAN armaments depot Orchard hills destroyed and mymbat joint armaments depot destroyed in the hunter valley, small arms factory Lithgow damaged.

In this scenario i am not looking at how a surface fleet could get of the east coast undetected, but how would we cope from a peacetime economy/workforce to full wartime footing.


Does Australia have the infrastructure to rebuild enough shipping in a short time frame to conduct war?
Are we capable of building legacy hornet or super hornets in Australia?
Could we build small arms / artillery?
The list is end list

I am looking at this from a rebuilding phase and from a nation on full war footing and our ability to make war.

Your thoughts on how and what we could achieve in reality
i would think absolutely no rebuilding fast enough to be able to fight given that an enemy who attacked like that would probably have the means for follow up attacks to finish the job....so i ask where is our deterence?wheres a formidable SAM/AAA air defence system?wheres the hundreds of thousands of army reserve conscripts with the thousands of mortars,atgw,mpads and what not to allow at least a credible insurgency against any enemy footsoldiers that may be on australian soil because of such an event.
 

splat

Banned Member
i would think absolutely no rebuilding fast enough to be able to fight given that an enemy who attacked like that would probably have the means for follow up attacks to finish the job....so i ask where is our deterence?wheres a formidable SAM/AAA air defence system?wheres the hundreds of thousands of army reserve conscripts with the thousands of mortars,atgw,mpads and what not to allow at least a credible insurgency against any enemy footsoldiers that may be on australian soil because of such an event.
and also whats happened to our bid for the ABOMB from the 50,s?seems to me like the government of the day made an agreement with the americans and brits to keep our nuke status a secret so as to not rock the boat in regards to the future non proliferation treaties...well thats what i like to think is the true reality,it beats being shit scared of any future troubles with an immensely greater power that not even the united states could handle.conventionally that is.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Todjaeger
Sorry for the late reply I only get to the computer once a week away with work commitments.

Your reply sums up exactly the information I was after, our infrastructure base is far too small to make an impact on rebuilding in such a small time frame.

I have not thought too much about the why and after action of red forces, I was more interested in our rebuilding capability in what sort of time frame we could realistically achieve, but with hindsight it does has a major impact on our response and ability.

My comparison of what the United States achieved in 1941/42 is a bit like chalk and cheese when you have the complexities of modern equipment.

The manufacturing of modern equipment such as radar/sonar and aircraft comes in kit form to Australia and is most probably beyond our capability to complete in house.

Skilled labour, in the event of going to a full wartime commitment comes with mass mobilization which industries do you exempt?
I had an additional thought, specific to the replacement of aircraft. IIRC once the F-35 JSF enters full production, the fighters will come out at the rate of ~20/month assuming all components are available. With that kind of production rate, it would take ~5 months to completely replace the RAAF fighters if something happened. Now, if the US production moved back to a wartime footing (a la 24hr ops on the production line) then the time frame could possibly be cut down to ~2 months, again assuming all components are available as/when needed.

As mentioned before, in many cases the reason some of the current systems take so long to manufacture has to do with the complexity of the systems and subsystems.

In terms of Australian production, many of the very complicated items (like tanks, fighters and transport aircraft) are purchased. This is done largely because Australia, while a technologically developed nation, lacks the critical mass needed to sustain some of the particular industries required.

From what I recall of prior discussions on other threads, from a business standpoint, something like 4000 units would need to be ordered to reach a break even point for MBT production. Therefore there are only a handful of countries which are able to really support the kinds of industries needed to keep such production lines open, or have synergies with other industries to allow a transition back and forth.

Looking at current MBT production, even US & UK designs like the M1 Abrams and Challenger II are no longer in production (at least domestically, the Abrams might be under license production in Egypt...)

Given enough time and a critical need, I do think Australia could create an indigenious design like was done in World War II, with the AC Sentinel Mk I-IV tanks. It is worth remembering though that the Australians only managed to product ~65 before production ceased because a logistical pipeline bringing war material from US factories was in place.

Last thing to consider from an industrial output perspective. In the current peacetime procurement planning, it appears to take approximately 14(+/-) years from initial definition of a service need to entry into service of the first unit. In this, I am talking about 'big ticket' items like new aircraft, ships, etc. The C-17 Globemaster and F/A-18F SH purchases are in some respects irregular in that they were fast-tracked, as well as import purchases with minor modification from current production runs. If it were to be changed to wartime planning, I would expect that some of the numbers would shrink, as money/costs became less important, and as some policies and practices on bidding, etc were suspended due to time constraints. However, it would still take time to design or purchase a design, and the build or modify production facilities and establish a workforce, nevermind actually commencing production.

As for Splat,

What this scenario overlooks, quite deliberately, is what the current Australian defences are, and who/how they can overcome them. It can it done? Yes. Is it something that would be easy, or that many nations could do? No. And the only way to ensure that Australia could, even using nuclear weaponry, strike at everyone who could would be to establish intercontinental delivery systems. My personal preference would be for Australia to develop sufficient means so that a potential attacker would reconsider launching an attack, as opposed to being concerned about a counterstrike.

-Cheer
 
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