Israel pay more by f-35.

tphuang

Super Moderator
I did read about that. Apparently the Israeli's will be paying 200 million a plane. Very unpleasant.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/israel-plans-to-buy-over-100-f35s-02381/#more-2381
not sure what kind of cost that is. The add on cost will obviously be more than fly away cost. And also, the Israelis ask for so much modification that will have to be spread over the number of air frames they purchase. And finally, the total RnD of F-35 will also be spread across all the first x number of F-35s sold. Let's see a few deals actually getting signed first.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
So the F-35 export price will on average be ~200 million a piece?
Nope. But if people bothered to look at the detail they would notice that the fly away cost is still tracking at around $40 million in FY02 Then Year Dollars (TYD). The same price that has been quoted for a while. I know its a complex mechanism in that the price of the aircraft is quote in 2002 dollars that are since subject to inflation and more inflation in the future - the Israeli F-35s will cost $80 million in 2014 but that equals $ 40 million in FY 02 TYDs - but it allows actual increase in costs to be tracked rather than pure inflationary increases a vital instrument in a developmental weapon system. That is no one will blame the JSF PO and Lockheed if the rising price of titanium, labour, fuel, food, etc. pushes up the price of the F-35 but they will want to blame them if they need to do more work to the aircraft than planned - which would push up the price in the benchmarked FY02 dollars.

The difference between fly away cost and total procurement cost will be higher for the F-35I than the F-35A because the Israelis want to replace a lot of standard items with domestic ones. This will require additional engineering and will cost far more than any potential savings in the actual sub-system cost.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Nope. But if people bothered to look at the detail they would notice that the fly away cost is still tracking at around $40 million in FY02 Then Year Dollars (TYD). The same price that has been quoted for a while. I know its a complex mechanism in that the price of the aircraft is quote in 2002 dollars that are since subject to inflation and more inflation in the future - the Israeli F-35s will cost $80 million in 2014 but that equals $ 40 million in FY 02 TYDs - but it allows actual increase in costs to be tracked rather than pure inflationary increases a vital instrument in a developmental weapon system. That is no one will blame the JSF PO and Lockheed if the rising price of titanium, labour, fuel, food, etc. pushes up the price of the F-35 but they will want to blame them if they need to do more work to the aircraft than planned - which would push up the price in the benchmarked FY02 dollars.
Thank you for the explanation. That's where the price increase is coming from.

The difference between fly away cost and total procurement cost will be higher for the F-35I than the F-35A because the Israelis want to replace a lot of standard items with domestic ones. This will require additional engineering and will cost far more than any potential savings in the actual sub-system cost.
Well of course. Whenever you want you own modification of something it's going to cost you.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Nope. But if people bothered to look at the detail they would notice that the fly away cost is still tracking at around $40 million in FY02 Then Year Dollars (TYD).
Slight confusion. IN US budgeting terminology, "Then Year Dollars" doesn't refer to a fixed, single year. It is the price that is actually paid, year by year, in the prices of that year. E.g. if 200 are bought, split between 100 in Year 1, at $50 mn, & 100 in year 2, at $55 mn, the price of the total order, in "Then Year Dollars" is $52.5 mn.

The 2002 $ prices are "Base Year Dollars", "Base Year" being project-dependent. For the JSF, it is 2002.

The predicted flyaway cost in 2002 dollars, for the basic F-35A (the other variants are more expensive), when full-rate production is in full swing (the first few hundred will be more expensive), had risen to $47 mn by 2006, & has gone up slightly since. In 2007, the costs were reported to have increased in constant prices of 2002 by 66% since 2001. Flyaway cost has increased less, but still gone up considerably.

To convert base year dollars into prices of other years, use the index here - scroll down to Section 10 & click on the link. There is no estimate for FY 2014 yet, but 2013 is 29% higher than 2002, using the general GDP index (that's the one they use for calculating the difference: "defense" inflation is used for other purposes, but in any case makes little difference), $40 mn in 2002 prices is 2013 prices is $51.6 mn. Unless we assume an inflation rate of 55% in 2014, it is therefore a mistake to think that $40 mn in 2002$ = $80 mn in 2014$.

$80 mn in 2014 prices, on current US budgeting assumptions, is about $60 mn in 2002 prices, not $40 mn.

That's what you find when you look at the details.
 
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