Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Abraham Gubler

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The Nansen class is a derivative of the F-100 but slightly scaled down (minus 10m in length and 2m in beam) to match the F model rather than D model AEGIS. No one within Defence is suggesting that it be the basis of the ANZAC replacement. What is being suggested is the F-100 hull but with a new Australian combat system in place of AEGIS . Possibly other changes like two hangars and a multi-mission deck thanks to the positive weight difference between AEGIS and the Australian combat system. The Australian combat system would be the 9LV Mk 4 and CEAFAR as in the ANZAC ASMD or the next generation 9LV Mk 5 and AUSPAR – if available.

Due to the competitive nature of shipbuilding the Hobart Minus would be the likely offer of ASC for the ANZAC replacement. Austal could offer a version of the LCS 2. BAES Australia could also make an offering from their Williamstown dockyard. This could be just about anything. However since the Commonwealth of Australia already owns rights to the F-100 IP it would be hard to beat on VFM.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
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First post for a while - holidays then illness (which is now ok).

I've been trying to catch up on the comments re the Anzac replacement program and it has made interesting reading. I do think Abraham's comments in his last post make a lot of sense. I'm not totally convinced at this stage re a role for an LCS in the RAN but I don't dismiss the possibility that a mix of F100 based hulls and LCS-2 dirivatives could be the way to go.

Tas
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Tobruck in Hobart

HMAS Tobruck arrived in Hobart on Thursday. The old girl looks to be in excellent condition and she is sporting her new mini typhoon mountings amidships.

I have published a few photos in my blog:

http://tasmansblog.blogspot.com/

A couple of low res images are attached:

Tas
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Looks like two gun boxes forward as well...
My understanding is that Tobruck, along with the two LPAs, are scheduled to have the 25mm typhoon fitted either in place of or as a supplement to the mini typhoons which may then be relocated. In the meantime it seems that manually operated HMGs are fitted in the forward gun boxes.

There was something about this published in the DMO section of the ADF site earlier this year but I haven't had time to search for it today.

Tas
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The Nansen class is a derivative of the F-100 but slightly scaled down (minus 10m in length and 2m in beam) to match the F model rather than D model AEGIS. No one within Defence is suggesting that it be the basis of the ANZAC replacement. What is being suggested is the F-100 hull but with a new Australian combat system in place of AEGIS . Possibly other changes like two hangars and a multi-mission deck thanks to the positive weight difference between AEGIS and the Australian combat system. The Australian combat system would be the 9LV Mk 4 and CEAFAR as in the ANZAC ASMD or the next generation 9LV Mk 5 and AUSPAR – if available.

Due to the competitive nature of shipbuilding the Hobart Minus would be the likely offer of ASC for the ANZAC replacement. Austal could offer a version of the LCS 2. BAES Australia could also make an offering from their Williamstown dockyard. This could be just about anything. However since the Commonwealth of Australia already owns rights to the F-100 IP it would be hard to beat on VFM.
Other then their yards in the UK building ships for the RN, do BAe own naval shipyards elsewhere? If their Australian Naval interests are their only other example in that area, would they probably offer a derivative of C1, C2, T45 etc?
 

ThePuss

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I have been mulling over the idea of replacing the FFG's with a class of four expeditionary frigates. By this I mean a warship with capability of a frigate which would also has the ability to carry a company of troops (around 150).
This ship would be similar in inspiration to the Absalon Class,
However the embarked troops would not be accommodated in containers on the mission deck, as this would eliminate your ability to carry vehicles and bulk stores.
So I have added an extra 1200 tons (which is probably overly generous).

The proposed ship would displace around 7500 tons and have a crew similar to an ANZAC (160) A flight of 20 (Two Helos) and 150 Troops. It would have a small well deck capabile of taking one LCM and two rading craft, whist the ship would have two standard RAN RIBS for normal ship operations on upperdeck davits.

Armaments would consit of a MK 45 5" Gun, 2 to 4 VLS modules,2 MK 141 Harpoon launchers, 4 quad Nulka launchers , internal SVTT's (anti sub torps) 1 MK 1B phalanx (1b gives a point and shoot option to phalanx), Typhoon and Mini Typhoon to round off the close in protection. The ships would be equiped with CEAFAR radars (the Australian develpoped Search and Illumination radars that are being installed in the ANZAC upgragde) coupled with the latest SAAB combat system (because it will be already on the ANZAC's and the LPD's).

So the grand idea is to have four of these ships. One in refit, one on work ups / having a break, one doing normal navy type stuff and one patroling around the Pacific with a company of light infanty from the Townsville battalions embarked, Ready to responed to any natural disaster or civil unrest in the Pacific region. This one company would not be enough to quell a islands civil unrest, However it should be able to evacuate foreign nationals whislt the "Fat Ships, Troop up" and do the job properly.

1 of the 2 Helos embarked would be and army/navy NH 90 which should be able to carry enough troops to secure the embassy whislt the two army rading craft should have enough troops to secure the landing point, Which would be closly folowed by the LCM with a couple of Bushmasters loaded to carry troops to the embassy, whilst further loads of Bushys would be able to pick up civilians / deliver more troops.

There is a an old adage that "Steel is cheep and air is cheeper". I think that a ready response "experdinonary" frigate would be very valuble in the future with the world going the way it is.
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I have been mulling over the idea of replacing the FFG's with a class of four experdinonary frigates. By this I mean a warship with capability of a frigate which would also has the ability to carry a company of troops (around 150).
This ship would be similar in inspiration to the Absalon Class,
However the embarked troops would not be accommodated in containers on the mission deck, as this would eliminate your ability to carry vehicles and bulk stores.
So I have added an extra 1200 tons (which is probably overly generous).

The proposed ship would displace around 7500 tons and have a crew similar to an ANZAC (160) A flight of 20 (Two Helos) and 150 Troops. It would have a small well deck capabile of taking one LCM and two rading craft, whist the ship would have two standard RAN RIBS for normal ship operations on upperdeck davits.

Armaments would consit of a MK 45 5" Gun, 2 to 4 VLS modules,2 MK 141 Harpoon launchers, 4 quad Nulka launchers , internal SVTT's (anti sub torps) 1 MK 1B phalanx (1b gives a point and shoot option to phalanx), Typhoon and Mini Typhoon to round off the close in protection. The ships would be equiped with CEAFAR radars (the Australian develpoped Search and Illumination radars that are being installed in the ANZAC upgragde) coupled with the latest SAAB combat system (because it will be already on the ANZAC's and the LPD's).

So the grand idea is to have four of these ships. One in refit, one on work ups / having a break, one doing normal navy type stuff and one patroling around the Pacific with a company of light infanty from the Townsville battalions embarked, Ready to responed to any natural disaster or civil unrest in the Pacific region. This one company would not be enough to quell a islands civil unrest, However it should be able to evacuate foreign nationals whislt the "Fat Ships, Troop up" and do the job properly.

1 of the 2 Helos embarked would be and army/navy NH 90 which should be able to carry enough troops to secure the embassy whislt the two army rading craft should have enough troops to secure the landing point, Which would be closly folowed by the LCM with a couple of Bushmasters loaded to carry troops to the embassy, whilst further loads of Bushys would be able to pick up civilians / deliver more troops.

There is a an old adage that "Steel is cheep and air is cheeper". I think that a ready response "experdinonary" frigate would be very valuble in the future with the world going the way it is.
I love this concept - such a frigate would be extremely useful in the sort of low level operations that could arise in the Pacific but would also able to operate in support of the AWDs for general naval warfare.

As a serving member of the RAN you are well placed to understand what the RAN really needs so it would be great to see a concept like this explored and developed.

Tas
 

Jezza

Member
I have been mulling over the idea of replacing the FFG's with a class of four experdinonary frigates. By this I mean a warship with capability of a frigate which would also has the ability to carry a company of troops (around 150).
This ship would be similar in inspiration to the Absalon Class,
However the embarked troops would not be accommodated in containers on the mission deck, as this would eliminate your ability to carry vehicles and bulk stores.
So I have added an extra 1200 tons (which is probably overly generous).

The proposed ship would displace around 7500 tons and have a crew similar to an ANZAC (160) A flight of 20 (Two Helos) and 150 Troops. It would have a small well deck capabile of taking one LCM and two rading craft, whist the ship would have two standard RAN RIBS for normal ship operations on upperdeck davits.

Armaments would consit of a MK 45 5" Gun, 2 to 4 VLS modules,2 MK 141 Harpoon launchers, 4 quad Nulka launchers , internal SVTT's (anti sub torps) 1 MK 1B phalanx (1b gives a point and shoot option to phalanx), Typhoon and Mini Typhoon to round off the close in protection. The ships would be equiped with CEAFAR radars (the Australian develpoped Search and Illumination radars that are being installed in the ANZAC upgragde) coupled with the latest SAAB combat system (because it will be already on the ANZAC's and the LPD's).

So the grand idea is to have four of these ships. One in refit, one on work ups / having a break, one doing normal navy type stuff and one patroling around the Pacific with a company of light infanty from the Townsville battalions embarked, Ready to responed to any natural disaster or civil unrest in the Pacific region. This one company would not be enough to quell a islands civil unrest, However it should be able to evacuate foreign nationals whislt the "Fat Ships, Troop up" and do the job properly.

1 of the 2 Helos embarked would be and army/navy NH 90 which should be able to carry enough troops to secure the embassy whislt the two army rading craft should have enough troops to secure the landing point, Which would be closly folowed by the LCM with a couple of Bushmasters loaded to carry troops to the embassy, whilst further loads of Bushys would be able to pick up civilians / deliver more troops.

There is a an old adage that "Steel is cheep and air is cheeper". I think that a ready response "experdinonary" frigate would be very valuble in the future with the world going the way it is.
Absalons with aussie ceafar would be perfect.
Do we have rights to anzac hulls of just use f 100 hulls
It would be ver handy warships indeed.
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I love this concept - such a frigate would be extremely useful in the sort of low level operations that could arise in the Pacific but would also able to operate in support of the AWDs for general naval warfare.

As a serving member of the RAN you are well placed to understand what the RAN really needs so it would be great to see a concept like this explored and developed.

Tas
Ta Tas

8 ANZAC'S, 3 AWD'S and and 4 EFFG'S (or what every the designation of my proposed Expeditionary frigate would be, IMHO be a very well rounded surface combat fleet. However a 15 strong combat fleet with the current manning problems of the RAN would be unrealistic. I suggest we payoff Anzac and Arunta (which are not baseline ships as the first three ANZAC's where prototypes, Warramunga is the baseline).

The future fleet would have 3 AWD's (4 would be nice) 6 ANZAC's and 4 EFFG's.

A lot of money could be saved by not giving the ASMD upgrade to the two Australian prototype ANZACS. The saved movey could be redirected to the EFFG project.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
I have been mulling over the idea of replacing the FFG's with a class of four expeditionary frigates. By this I mean a warship with capability of a frigate which would also has the ability to carry a company of troops (around 150).
This ship would be similar in inspiration to the Absalon Class,
However the embarked troops would not be accommodated in containers on the mission deck, as this would eliminate your ability to carry vehicles and bulk stores.
So I have added an extra 1200 tons (which is probably overly generous).

The proposed ship would displace around 7500 tons and have a crew similar to an ANZAC (160) A flight of 20 (Two Helos) and 150 Troops. It would have a small well deck capabile of taking one LCM and two rading craft, whist the ship would have two standard RAN RIBS for normal ship operations on upperdeck davits.
In general, I like your idea. Might I propose a modified Absalon design, as it would probably be the cheapest option? But I do have a couple of quibbles -

Firstly, the well deck. It adds weight & cost, reduces speed (or needs more power & fuel to maintain speed) & takes up space. I don't think this ship needs it. Davits, & an enlarged version of the Absalon launching ramp, could be enough, though you'd have to accept smaller landing craft.

Secondly, why a crew of 160? It seems a big increase over comparable ships, such as Absalon & the F125. With a crew more like theirs, you should be able to comfortably house your infantry company without having to increase size so much - Absalon already has cabins for 70 in addition to the crew. In fact, I see the extra craft you propose putting aboard as being the chief reason for a stretch.

Apart from that, it all makes sense. Incorporating the same equipment & weapons as on other RAN ships is obviously sensible.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Absalons with aussie ceafar would be perfect.
Do we have rights to anzac hulls of just use f 100 hulls
It would be ver handy warships indeed.
I do not believe that the Anzac (MEKO 200) hull would be suitable. The Anzac is ~3,600 tons while the Absalon is nearly twice that displacement. The F100 might well suit.

Would it be possible, given the pending AWD construction, to use the same hull and machinery for the "Oz Absalon"? Or would the requirements in terms of construction, displacement and design be too great?

-Cheers
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In general, I like your idea. Might I propose a modified Absalon design, as it would probably be the cheapest option? But I do have a couple of quibbles -

Firstly, the well deck. It adds weight & cost, reduces speed (or needs more power & fuel to maintain speed) & takes up space. I don't think this ship needs it. Davits, & an enlarged version of the Absalon launching ramp, could be enough, though you'd have to accept smaller landing craft.

Secondly, why a crew of 160? It seems a big increase over comparable ships, such as Absalon & the F125. With a crew more like theirs, you should be able to comfortably house your infantry company without having to increase size so much - Absalon already has cabins for 70 in addition to the crew. In fact, I see the extra craft you propose putting aboard as being the chief reason for a stretch.

Apart from that, it all makes sense. Incorporating the same equipment & weapons as on other RAN ships is obviously sensible.
Some very valid points there. Yes the large increase in displacement was more to do with having a well deck. I understand the well deck brings quite a few cons as well as the pros.

The main reason I wanted a well deck was to aid in loading of troops and vehicles. Ramp to ramp mergers are dodgy at best in any sea state of above 2.

Perhaps instead of a true well deck the ships could have a alcove which is permanently flooded which would "Hug" 1/3 to 1/2 of an LCM to over come this issue? This would not be the LCM permanent stowege as it would be deck stowed. Two smaller LCM's may be a better idea than one large one.

The crewing may be high and is only an estimate. However the AWD's have a crew of 184 and I wouldn't see the crewing requirement being much less. Also remember only one of the four would normally have a company of troops embarked and the other three are doing normal navy stuff, which means boardings which require a lot of man power.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Combining vessel roles has never worked out well in history. Is it fish or fowl? Wouldn’t it be better just to have a frigate able to manoeuvre and fight as a frigate and have a smallish amphibious ship able to manoeuvre and deploy troops as an amphibious ship? The German and Danish solution of combining the roles into a ‘littoral frigate’ is very much because they have neither role of landing troops ashore or fighting sea battles. It’s tailored for one mission: maritime security operations, and suffers in every other. Considering amphibs in the class of the HMNZS Canterbury can be had for ~$100m and a crew of 60 and can really deploy and sustain a reinforced combat team why compromise?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Perhaps instead of a true well deck the ships could have a alcove which is permanently flooded which would "Hug" 1/3 to 1/2 of an LCM to over come this issue? This would not be the LCM permanent stowege as it would be deck stowed. Two smaller LCM's may be a better idea than one large one.

The crewing may be high and is only an estimate. However the AWD's have a crew of 184 and I wouldn't see the crewing requirement being much less. Also remember only one of the four would normally have a company of troops embarked and the other three are doing normal navy stuff, which means boardings which require a lot of man power.
I think you're trying to make it too much of a hybrid amphib/destroyer, with full capacity as both.

The F125 & Absalons, in their different ways, are compromises which make no attempt at that full capacity in either role. F125 has been described as a colonial cruiser: it's equipped for self-defense, maritime security (e.g. anti-piracy) & limited littoral intervention, with excellent endurance. Absalon is equipped for self-defence & flexible littoral intervention, with a deck which can be used for transport, accommodation, stores, or a variable mixture. It does the same as the F125, or can function as a self-defending transport - because the Danish navy is too small for specialised ships.

Both get by with a crew of about 100. An AWD needs more because it is far more heavily armed, with more sensors, & expects to get into serious warfighting, which isn't appropriate for this ship. Is it meant to double up as an AAW destroyer? Can't be done: you won't fit the weapons & sensors in & keep the troops. Is it meant as a real landing ship, able to put men & vehicles ashore on beaches in rough seas, & thus need a dock or fancy hull? If so, then you have to give up on the idea of anything like frigate performance, & you'll have problems fitting in the weapons. Landing craft take a lot of space.

I don't agree with Abraham that the whole idea is a mistake - the colonial cruiser & self-defending transports were very successful types, as long as they stuck to what they were meant for (whether the RAN can justify 'em is a different matter, but I'm content to leave that argument to one side for the moment) - but I think you've not accepted the degree to which a compromise ship must compromise. The point of a ship like this is that it can function autonomously, or as head of a flotilla of minor vessels, in a lowish-threat environment. If it needs AWD protection (the implication of it needing AWD crewing, in a similar size ship), then you send an AWD, & in that case, it's unlikely that a company is enough, so you'll send something bigger to carry the troops.

Any crew carried for boardings & the like will not be needed when carrying troops (use the soldiers!), & their cabins will therefore be available. The F125 will have a permanent complement of 160 including 50 commandos.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't agree with Abraham that the whole idea is a mistake -
I never said that:

Combining vessel roles has never worked out well in history. Is it fish or fowl? Wouldn’t it be better just to have a frigate able to manoeuvre and fight as a frigate and have a smallish amphibious ship able to manoeuvre and deploy troops as an amphibious ship? The German and Danish solution of combining the roles into a ‘littoral frigate’ is very much because they have neither role of landing troops ashore or fighting sea battles. It’s tailored for one mission: maritime security operations, and suffers in every other. Considering amphibs in the class of the HMNZS Canterbury can be had for ~$100m and a crew of 60 and can really deploy and sustain a reinforced combat team why compromise?
Please don't misinterpret me when all you are doing is repeating what I said using four times as many words.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I did not repeat what you said. Please don't misinterpret me.

Also, I disagree that I misinterpreted you, or at least what you wrote. To state that it has never worked out well, with no qualification (e.g. "but it might in certain circumstances") is a clear statement that you consider the concept flawed.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Any crew carried for boardings & the like will not be needed when carrying troops (use the soldiers!), & their cabins will therefore be available. The F125 will have a permanent complement of 160 including 50 commandos.
And consider that that's with (pretty big) 4-man enlisted cabins. If necessary, you could stuff them with twice that, as long as supplies hold up for endurance (or while a EGV is available for replenishment - which could carry at least another 200 troops and two large helos as well out of the box).

Note that they've already started tacking on other roles onto the F125 as well. Minehunting for example, along the lines of LCS, and likely also harbour UXO clearance.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I agree with Abraham, why spend $500 million or more for a ship with less than half the vehicle lane meters, not to mention zero extra helicopter capability of a Canterbury type of ship which can be bought for $150 million. A frigate design will require 150+ crew, whereas a Canterbury only requires 63.

You really don't want a vehicle deck as much as you want another frigate. Vehicle decks aren't expensive, frigates are.
 
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