Bushmaster 'Ute'

lobbie111

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #101
It's the Defence Materiel Organisation
That's how it was published in the article just to let you know, does anyone know what the specs were that were not up to scratch?

Hopefully the minister will see sense and go for the copperhead that is, if its as good as what I have been reading about it...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's how it was published in the article just to let you know, does anyone know what the specs were that were not up to scratch?
Yes I know, I was making a non too subtle point about the frailties of accurate journalism in this country....

Hopefully the minister will see sense and go for the copperhead that is, if its as good as what I have been reading about it...
See sense? That would assume that get's an improvement in the quality of advice from his senior suits..... His CoS has been replaced, so there is hope.
 

lobbie111

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #104
That will be an interesting one, but whats more interesting and I know im going off topic here, but in the photo on that page once I blew it up I foundthis on the bottom right of the page a HK416 WHATS THAT DOING THERE?

On another side note is there a page that can direct me to the competitor Thales put through for the Land Rover replacement, a scaled down bushmaster I heard.

Lastly, is/was the copperhead to have a RWS or gun port?
 
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winnyfield

New Member
.... I know im going off topic here, but in the photo on that page once I blew it up I foundthis on the bottom right of the page a HK416 WHATS THAT DOING THERE?
I don't think that's a HK416, could be a C7/8 but I think it might be one of those SA80 with a new rails system.
 

lobbie111

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #107
I don't think that's a HK416, could be a C7/8 but I think it might be one of those SA80 with a new rails system.
No, the flash hider and barrel shape are completly different, plus the rails dont match up, here is the 416. If you look at the one on the far right you will see the exact same flash hider and barrel shape plus its free floating rails config.

It may be a 417 in the designated marksman role.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
This PDF document at the link contains the first photo I have seen of an Australian Bushmaster uparmoured with the SEAL Solutions RAV armour package. The same package can also be fitted to Copperhead I believe.

This IS NOT the applique armour package fitted to Dutch Bushmasters.
The package, as fitted in the photo (see page 2 of PDF), is I believe constructed of steel but can also be made in composites/other materials.
There is no publicly released information on the protection level obtained but it is said to be significantly higher than the base vehicle.

Interestingly, a variation of the same RAV armour has been fitted to a K-9 SPH, to comply with protection requirements that Australia has specified for LAND 17. You can enlarge the PDF to 150% without any loss in photo quality.

http://www.sealsolutions.com.au/downloads/RAV_CTD_Brochure_UNCLASS_V2.0.pdf
 

riksavage

Banned Member
According to Janes the 'Copperhead' will compete against Navistar's MXT for the UK 'Ute' requirement, whilst the UK 'Warthog' vehicle (replacement of Vikings in Afghanistan) will either be an upgraded Viking MK2 or the Singapore Technologies Bronco (both offering enhanced protection and internal space).

With the UK already using Bushmasters in theatre, this has to be the favourate for logistical and training reasons, plus it has an excellent track record.

I hope UK Government also opt for the Bronco, which is in production. The MK2 Viking is still to be built.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With the UK already using Bushmasters in theatre, this has to be the favourate for logistical and training reasons, plus it has an excellent track record.
according to sources I met at Land Warfare Conf, the Copperhead was regarded as the only platform that met the actual spec.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
To my shock and horror it looks like the Bushmaster Ute has NOT been selected for the UK medium support vehicle role. Another mind boggling decision by the MOD considering the Bushmaster is already in use by the UK SF. I can only assume the decision was driven by cost because the solution they have selected is not a true MARP vehicle. If they keep buying all these different variants the logistics / spare parts trail will be overly complicated and a nightmare to run. I feel sorry for the REME guys who will have to keep all these different models operational in the field! :lul

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...BiddersNamedForNewBreedOfArmouredVehicles.htm
 
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winnyfield

New Member
To my shock and horror it looks like the Bushmaster Ute has NOT been selected for the UK medium support vehicle role. Another mind boggling decision by the MOD considering the Bushmaster is already in use by the UK SF. I can only assume the decision was driven by cost because the solution they have selected is not a true MARP vehicle. If they keep buying all these different variants the logistics / spare parts trail will be overly complicated and a nightmare to run. I feel sorry for the REME guys who will have to keep all these different models operational in the field! :lul

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...BiddersNamedForNewBreedOfArmouredVehicles.htm
The UK-MoD operates a very small Bushmaster fleet. In comparison they operate hundreds of Mastiffs and Ridgebacks (~Cougar MRAP).
 

swerve

Super Moderator
If they keep buying all these different variants the logistics / spare parts trail will be overly complicated and a nightmare to run. I feel sorry for the REME guys who will have to keep all these different models operational in the field! :lul
Two of the three vehicles are variants of vehicles already in service in large numbers, but the Husky is a new vehicle. Some criticism of that choice on ARRSE, but others are saying the base vehicle is also the favoured option for another requirement, which may have influenced the decision.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Subsequent to my initial post, it does look like the same MXT Husky vehicle is being considered as a replacement for Landrovers in a number of roles, so in the long run it might prove the right choice. However if this is the case, why not buy more Panthers? Both are not dedicated MARP vehicles but instead have additional armour protection, one can only assume the Husky is better protected than the Panther?
 

winnyfield

New Member
Subsequent to my initial post, it does look like the same MXT Husky vehicle is being considered as a replacement for Landrovers in a number of roles, so in the long run it might prove the right choice. However if this is the case, why not buy more Panthers? Both are not dedicated MARP vehicles but instead have additional armour protection, one can only assume the Husky is better protected than the Panther?
The Husky is large with more cargo capacity (if its based on the MaxxPro it'd be better protected).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1bFGlrN3cQ"]YouTube - International Military[/ame]
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I would like to see the copperhead as the new CSS vehicle to support NZLAV. one of the ongoing projects for NZs LTDP is to provide CSS vehicles to support and keep up with LAV.
It would make sense for government to purchase copperhead as common vehicle systems between the two countries would benefit in terms of regional industry, inter-country operability(as we sometimes do ops together) and plain old supporting our neighbours and buying their kit.
Some bushmasters in kiwi stables would probably be useful as well, Ambos, mortars, C2 etc and used when NZLAV was not required or in conjunction with.
 

Blastmaster

New Member
RegR, take a moment to refer to my posting of April 28. The Copperhead concept is not a sound solution - there are other much more cost effective solutions available for the apllications you mention.

You are probably going to find this hard to swallow but there are also better and more cost effective solutions avaliable for vehicles with far higher blast and ballistic protection than the LAV 111 or NZLAV you refer to.

Just because the US has run away with the MRAP concept which which they "re-discovered" after the South Africans had pioneered this technology more than 30 years ago does not mean that the rest of the world must follow.

Anyone who has been involved with the development of landmine and ballistically protected vehicles could have told Uncle Sam that their much vaunted (and grossly overpriced) MRAPs were too heavy, too big and too unmanoeuvrable for urban deployment and now after acquiring around 12000 of these monsters, they are now trying to rush the MRAP "lite" into production because the MRAPs are actually not the answer.

Use Google and type in "TACOM M-ATV" and see what the specification is now for the MRAP "lite" which is a far more versatile and suitable vehicle than the MRAP - pity they had to spend many billions of $$ to find this out.

The same applies to the Copperhead and other monocoque based cargo platforms -a total waste of money!!

Even the 4x4 Bushmaster's time has come and gone or maybe you don't believe this either. Events and threats have overtaken this vehicle too.

NZ should really save its money and rather start looking for innovative protected platforms to take it forward into the next decade at least.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Thanks blastmaster, good to see arguments for and against copperhead reading through thread.

Yes understand the LAV not the best suited platform for all requirements but for a small nation (with an even smaller budget) who can only realisticly support one type, the LAV seems to cover our intended future roles. Would be ideal to have some tracks as well but logistically LAV was easier option.

So in your opinion no need for expensive copperhead type veh when stock up-armoured truck would suffice. What about FMTV? i know Aus just canned its order due to armour issues but as we already have a few in stock as recovery vehicles, could cut down the lengthy lead in and evaluation period that seems to plague our forces.

Defence also looking at Unimog replacements so both projects could be combined to save costs and ease logistic support. What does Aus use to support ASLAV in the feild? at the moment we just use mogs but think an armoured option is needed.
 

Blastmaster

New Member
Hello RegR,

With defence equipment and stores now being largely moved in some form of containerization or in boxed form, we are really only talking about protecting the human element in the supply chain against blasts and small arms fire during transport and to therefore use expensive platforms such as Copperhead or similar to do this simply does not make sense.

The Copperhead may provide a tad more protection against blasts for a containerized load but this argument also does not really count for much if you consider how the (protected) convoys have been ambushed and attacked along the routes through Pakistan to Afghanistan and the containers either destroyed by fire or broken open and looted. As long as the crews are protected against small arms fire and blasts, that is really all that matters and for that you do not need Copperhead type platforms at all for most of the the material being transported.

And I have left the best for last.

Once the Copperhead type vehicles have been subjected to blasts, you can rest assured they are:

(1) very expensive to repair
(2) in many instances so seriously mechanically damaged that major (and expensive) mechanical "surgery" is required to restore the main automotive geometry even close to that of the original vehicle. There is frequently major distortion and displacement of the hull and hull elements,suspension systems as well as many of the automotive components and systems such as the engine mounting system and cooling system that it is almost not even worth the trouble to repair them.
(3) a dedicated cargo platform such as the Copperhead is often out of service for months for rebuilding or repair after a major blast whilst with a (far cheaper) truck with an armoured capsule it is cheaper to scrap the vehicle and simply replace it with another or re-use the crew capsule which can very often be re-mounted on another similar base truck.

As far as the NZLAV is concerned I cannot really comment because its suitability or otherwise is determined by the NZ Defence and NZ Foreign Policies, but it is interesting that very few Armies other than NZ and the US have adopted this vehicle.

I believe totally new and more suitable paltforms are required and which can be developed at short notice.

Also, I believe we are going to see much shorter and far more cost effective vehicle development programmes in future as goverments around the globe are forced to start cutting defence spending and reduce the unacceptable levels of waste associated with so many defence programmes in the past. And Defence procurement authorities everywhere will have to lift their game very significantly too to assist in reducing costs and keeping development times to realistic levels.
 
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