What is the future of the Mig design bureau ?

[alberchico]

Hi to everybody. Just joined this great site It seems that the Mig company is going downhill right now. They lost the 5th generation fighter contest to Sukhoi, they lost the jet trainer competition to the yak-130, they are not really inolved in any major civil aircraft projects, with Sukhoi in charge of the Russian regional jet, their MIG-35 has been flying around without any orders, still waiting for the results of the Indian fighter competition. I believe that Sukhoi will become the future of Russian aerospace while Mig is a dying enterprise like McDonnel Douglas was in the 90's. :shudder :shudder :shudder

Any thoughts ???

 

[Feanor]

Yes and no. It certainly looks that way from one perspective. Keep in mind however that they are both part of the new single airplane building corporation. Also keep in mind that MiG has orders for the MiG-29K for a total of 45 units. That's almost as large as the original Flanker buy (which was iirc 48 planes). They also have a modernization contract for the ~66 Fulcrums currently in India service. Finally they've had a couple of other modernization contracts with other countries (including a MiG-29SD variant modernized to NATO standards). Not all that bad.

Potentially they have the Algerian deal, if they manage to renegotiate for the MiG-35 or MiG-29M, and the MMRCA. Both fairly major. Libya is also still on the customer short list, having reached an agreement with Russia that it would purchase Russian weapons in exchange for a write off of Soviet-era loans. MiG-35 could very well be on that shopping list as well. Ultimately time will tell is the only answer. I do recall an arms-tass article claiming that a light weight version of the PAK-FA will be developed, and that MiG will participate. MiG also has a 15% stake in the current PAK-FA, along with Yakovlev (another 15%).

On the other hand there have been no domestic orders, not even for modernization to my knowledge. It's not all bad, but it certainly doesn't look good.

 

[alberchico]

Yes and no. It certainly looks that way from one perspective. Keep in mind however that they are both part of the new single airplane building corporation. .

So that means that in the worst case scenario they can get some work or project transferred to them form another division to keep them alive ???

Also, they can't keep updating and building mig-29's forever. They will need to come up with a new design in the next few years. Have there been any news about that ? It would be sad if a company famous for such legendary aircraft was relegated to a partner or contractor to a more successful company like Sukhoi

 

[Feanor]

Sukhoi has been doing nothing but updating the Su-27. It's other designs, Su-25, Su-24, Su-47, have either remained a Russian only thing, or have not gotten past prototype stage. And the PAK-FA is a joint venture between Sukhoi, Mig, and Yakovlev. During the Soviet era and the 90's, all 3 bureaus had 5th gen. program running, some even had multiple ones.

As for a new design, again I wouldn't be surprised if Sukhoi designs the larger T-50, and MiG uses the same, or similar airframe, to design a light weight variant (like the Fulcrum and Flanker).

 

[SkolZkiy]

I've also read that there will be PAK-FA designed by Sukhoi but it will be enough heavy and Russia also needs lighter fighters as MiG-29 so there will be variant of PAK-FA or may be even another plane.
But I doubt this will be done.

 

[aayiliam]

If you are talking about the design bureau only then we could have plan where they could try to sell their design services to some other country. whereas the actual building will be done in host country. the designing and other preliminary works could be done here

 

[SkolZkiy]

It's the question of selling national secrets. So this is illegal.

 

[Feanor]

It's the question of selling national secrets. So this is illegal.

What you mean technology transfers? The same stuff Russia does for India on a regular basis?

 

[aayiliam]

ya transfer of technology but the program is completely financed by a foreign country.

Let us say they discuss their 1.42 design with another favourable country and they completely finance the project and only the designing is done in russia the building of prototypes and manufacturing is done in the host country. It need not be a 5th gen aircraft. it could be 3rd gen aircraft but cost effective so that the purchasing nation will be able to manufacture the aircraft at very less cost.

 

[Feanor]

ya transfer of technology but the program is completely financed by a foreign country.

Let us say they discuss their 1.42 design with another favourable country and they completely finance the project and only the designing is done in russia the building of prototypes and manufacturing is done in the host country. It need not be a 5th gen aircraft. it could be 3rd gen aircraft but cost effective so that the purchasing nation will be able to manufacture the aircraft at very less cost.

Does the customer country have manufacturing facilities? If yes, then chances are they also have R&D facilities that will want a share of the work. And if the initial work is mainly done by MiG then MiG will probably get at least a partial contract for producing the plane, after which licensed production will be done by the customer country.

 

[SkolZkiy]

We are talking about exporting the materials and designs of 5th gen jet. So all these info is secret right?? So they will need at least a agreement with MoD or Rosoboronexport on this deal (I think they will get it).
About license production - may be I'm wrong but some parts are not produced in the other countries even according to license - radars, avionics, electronic equipment. If I'm right then I think another country can finance to finish constructing this plane but in Russia.

 

[Feanor]

We are talking about exporting the materials and designs of 5th gen jet. So all these info is secret right?? So they will need at least a agreement with MoD or Rosoboronexport on this deal (I think they will get it).
About license production - may be I'm wrong but some parts are not produced in the other countries even according to license - radars, avionics, electronic equipment. If I'm right then I think another country can finance to finish constructing this plane but in Russia.

Depends on the size of the order, and the amount of foreign financing involved in completing the aircraft. I bet a large and well financed order of around 200-300 a/c, and of course complete funding of a currently dead 5th gen. program, like completing the MFI, they'd be more then willing to give full access to all tech involved. Maybe sign an agreement not to re-export it.

 

[nevidimka]

I think there is a niche market that MiG can compete in and even be a huge market. If MiG can produce a new 5th gen plane of a single engine delta canard with long range, it will directly compete with JSF. Those countries that are denied the JSf and want to upgrade their airfroce without huge cost of flankers or PAF FA or JSF or Typhoons can go for the MiG solution.

Mig 35 is having a tough time as it is based on old airframe where all its tasks are being replicated by the Su 33/35BM with longer and more sophisticated avionics.

but of course all these cost money and a huge pool of resources including brainpower. Had they went for this instead of the Mig 1.42 they would have got something to work on by now.

 

[macman]

They're are reportedly almost 600 MIG-29's in Russian stocks, but maybe only about 400 or so suitable for full ongoing upgrade programs (differs by source).

Apparently 150-180 MIG-29's were scheduled to begin being upgraded to SMT standards in 1998 - I don't know how many were actually upgraded though (anyone know?).
The SMT program turns them into a multi-role fighter with better range & electronics, as well as increased service life & easier maintenance.

Also there are about 350 MIG-31 Foxbats - maybe about 220 or so useful for full upgrade programs (differs by source)..
Most apparently already upgraded to MiG-31M standard.


To keep the upgrading programs going on the MIG-29, they'll need to have some serious sales of the MIG-35 for ongoing development of the RD-33 engines as well as electronics/radars.

Same for the MIG-31. The Foxbat is still one of the most powerful air-to-air fighters around.
Further upgrades of the electronics, an uprated version of the current Russian AESA, better defensive ECM suite, & more maintenance friendly, & you have an incredibly powerful machine.

For sales to finance things for MIG, if the MIG-35 doesn't win the Indian tender, push Libya (debt repayment should buy some leverage), add Syria, & maybe Iran as well (won't really change the balance of power in the region, & should be able to sell decent numbers of MIG-29SMT's as well). Some sales of the MIG-31M to these countries as well.

 

[aayiliam]

It need not be a complete 5th Gen aircraft. They could even make something that is equal to JAS-39 and i beleive they can do this at a much cheaper price only requirement is to find a country who would like to finance the program.

 

[Feanor]

They're are reportedly almost 600 MIG-29's in Russian stocks, but maybe only about 400 or so suitable for full ongoing upgrade programs (differs by source).

Apparently 150-180 MIG-29's were scheduled to begin being upgraded to SMT standards in 1998 - I don't know how many were actually upgraded though (anyone know?).
The SMT program turns them into a multi-role fighter with better range & electronics, as well as increased service life & easier maintenance.

It seems like maybe at most one regiment, possibly none.

Also there are about 350 MIG-31 Foxbats - maybe about 220 or so useful for full upgrade programs (differs by source)..
Most apparently already upgraded to MiG-31M standard.

I don't think any Foxhounds are beyond the MiG-31B standard in front line units at the moment.

To keep the upgrading programs going on the MIG-29, they'll need to have some serious sales of the MIG-35 for ongoing development of the RD-33 engines as well as electronics/radars.

Same for the MIG-31. The Foxbat is still one of the most powerful air-to-air fighters around.
Further upgrades of the electronics, an uprated version of the current Russian AESA, better defensive ECM suite, & more maintenance friendly, & you have an incredibly powerful machine.

The MiG-31 is the Foxhound .

For sales to finance things for MIG, if the MIG-35 doesn't win the Indian tender, push Libya (debt repayment should buy some leverage), add Syria, & maybe Iran as well (won't really change the balance of power in the region, & should be able to sell decent numbers of MIG-29SMT's as well). Some sales of the MIG-31M to these countries as well.

Nobody really wants to buy the MiG-31. It's a platform with a very specific purpose, long range interceptor. Not many nations need it.

 

[macman]

Sorry - meant Foxhound not Foxbat...

Nobody really wants to buy the MiG-31. It's a platform with a very specific purpose, long range interceptor. Not many nations need it.

For any country worried about air incursions by other countries or ballistic missile's launched against them, having a dozen or so Foxhound's would be really handy..

Basically if you need something to get there very fast & chase down an air threat, whether scud missiles or enemy aircraft, the MIG-31 is ideal.

In times of heightened tension, have them rotating up 65,000 feet with their powerful radars & good data linking capabilities, ready to drop down on any potential incursions.

Just having them around & actually competently run would provide quite a bit deterent value against air incursions.

India, South Korea, Syria, Iran, & many of the other Middle East countries - if they could learn to operate them properly - think it would make a powerful addition to their defence capabilities.

 

[Feanor]

India, maybe though I doubt it. Although I suppose they need to replace their Foxbats which recently left active service. South Korea, Syria, and Iran are all fairly small in terms of territory, and hardly need the MiG-31. Syria and Iran would not be able to operate it, nevermind pay for anything but minor-upgraded planes straight out of mothball. South Korea has no need for it, nor is it a major customer of Russian weapon systems. Logistics, interoperability, and pilot training would all get in the way.