China buying 38 Su-35MKKs ?

[gf0012-aust]

If so the combatants are operating in a ridiculous manner. The US CVBG has no AEW airborne and the AEGIS ships are extremely close to the carrier. So the FLANKERs can sneak up on the carrier and then miraculous manage to evade SM-2 hits by using flares? Nothing is going to save them from AEGIS at this range. Even the Mk 99 illuminators will make the aircraft U/S. The less said about the ATA combat the better. This video looks cool but is total fantasy in terms of combat replication.

One of the problems with these portrayals is that they immediately show that the scripter has no idea about how USN force structure is laid out when in combat mode.

USN strike groups in warfighting disposition are onioned over hundreds (and serious hundreds) of k's

that scenario is an absolute fantasy and doesn't even reflect how USN CBG's operated in the 60's - let alone 50 years later with far more complex and interactive/interdependant systems.

 

[Feanor]

Probably a highly advanced alien spaceship with lazor beams.nfloorl:

Pew pew pew.

On a more serious note, the designation doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If they use the BM designation on the Su-35, then a commercial variant would be Su-35BMK. However I suspect they will drop the BM, and pretend the original Su-35 (Su-27M) never existed, in which case it will be an Su-35K. Perhaps 5-10 years from the original production run we will see an Su-35M (which would potentially give an Su-35MKK designation as the Chinese export variant), but that's way too far off to be making any predictions at this point, never mind talking about solid contracts. Whoever wrote that didn't even bother to do some research on the designations for his sci-fi planes.

 

[StevoJH]

If so the combatants are operating in a ridiculous manner. The US CVBG has no AEW airborne and the AEGIS ships are extremely close to the carrier. So the FLANKERs can sneak up on the carrier and then miraculous manage to evade SM-2 hits by using flares? Nothing is going to save them from AEGIS at this range. Even the Mk 99 illuminators will make the aircraft U/S. The less said about the ATA combat the better. This video looks cool but is total fantasy in terms of combat replication.

No CAP either. I can't believe i watched the first 6 minutes of that.

 

[Feanor]

One of the problems with these portrayals is that they immediately show that the scripter has no idea about how USN force structure is laid out when in combat mode.

USN strike groups in warfighting disposition are onioned over hundreds (and serious hundreds) of k's

that scenario is an absolute fantasy and doesn't even reflect how USN CBG's operated in the 60's - let alone 50 years later with far more complex and interactive/interdependant systems.

After thinking about this for a few minutes, if the ships are hundreds of kilometers apart, then their ADS don't overlap. Instead they each cover a small area of the ocean around the ship, but overall there are large gaps between them in terms of radar coverage, and killzones for the SAMs. So the fighters are the only thing that binds the IADS together in terms of area coverage?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

After thinking about this for a few minutes, if the ships are hundreds of kilometers apart, then their ADS don't overlap.

GF never said the ships were hundreds of km apart. But that the CVBG is onioned - as in layers - over 100s of kms. To completely overlap the outer ring of a circle with a radius of 100km taking into account radar horizon for sea skimmers only requires 12 ships.

 

[Feanor]

GF never said the ships were hundreds of km apart. But that the CVBG is onioned - as in layers - over 100s of kms. To completely overlap the outer ring of a circle with a radius of 100km taking into account radar horizon for sea skimmers only requires 12 ships.

My English is failing me. Could you possible illustrate what you mean? Layered over hundreds of kilometers? You mean the area coverage of the IADS is layered over hundreds of kilometers rather then the ships themselves? Because I interpreted this part to mean that the strike group/CVBG itself is spread over hundreds of kilometers.

USN strike groups in warfighting disposition are onioned over hundreds (and serious hundreds) of k's

 

[Grand Danois]

Onioned!

 

[Feanor]

Oh ok. So the ships themselves are fairly close, and the point-air defense elements of the carrier and the escorts are at the heart of it, while the longer-range SAMs and fighters provide area coverage.

 

[Firehorse]

In the animation, the escorts of both CBGs were shown close by necessity- it would be more complicated to show them 10 miles away (usial max distance for CGs). That said, and despite other errors/omissions, the dogfight looks good!

 

[nevidimka]

Another mistake by Firehorse is that, those arent Superhornet, they are older Hornets. and the Chinese Carrier has the Russian double dragon symbol...

 

[gf0012-aust]

t would be more complicated to show them 10 miles away (usial max distance for CGs).

not even remotely close. warfooting distances are BVR and determined by the groups individual signal management issues as well as fleet.

That said, and despite other errors/omissions, the dogfight looks good!

no, it's a bit amateurish - because it doesn't reflect anything remotely connected to how a real event would evolve.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Oh ok. So the ships themselves are fairly close, and the point-air defense elements of the carrier and the escorts are at the heart of it, while the longer-range SAMs and fighters provide area coverage.

That schematic also excludes the sig management assets such as Hawkeyes, Rotaries on cruise missile watch, and doesn't represent the depth of the skimmers signal management.

strike forces also have subs acting independantly in support.

it can get quite complicated...

 

[crobato]

Of course there are no Super Hornets, and the carriers aren't Chinese either. They aren't in the game. The dogfights are entirely by computer.

http://www.lo-mac.com/

http://lockon.co.uk/index.php?lang=en

http://lockon.co.uk/?end_pos=44&lang=en&scr=list&page=1#444

With it you can even make an animated movie like say, Tomcat vs. Hornet.

 

[Feanor]

That schematic also excludes the sig management assets such as Hawkeyes, Rotaries on cruise missile watch, and doesn't represent the depth of the skimmers signal management.

strike forces also have subs acting independantly in support.

it can get quite complicated...

Naturally. But subs aren't part of the air battle, right?

So realistically what range would the Flankers (and why is there only 4 of them?!) be engaged at by the CVBG?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Naturally. But subs aren't part of the air battle, right?

They're part of the onion - so they're part of the management space.

So realistically what range would the Flankers (and why is there only 4 of them?!) be engaged at by the CVBG?

Onion:
Carrier BMS
Tico BMS
Aegis BMS
Rotors - ASW and Cruise missile BMS
Handoff BMS (Non Aegis)
Hawkeye BMS
Other picket assets
Space

 

[Firehorse]

Another mistake by Firehorse is that, those arent Superhornet, they are older Hornets.

Only jet intakes look like the older F-18, but the rest of the airframe is like that of the Superhornet- the LEE (leading edge extensions) are larger, and stabilators are with angled corners. I even stopped it to make sure.
Yes, I agree the distances between escorts and their CVN may be longer when on station or in BMD mode, but during transit it's doubtful, IMO.
The objective of that animation is to show airbattle, not an entire sea battle involving other platforms. IMHO, strictly CBG vs CBG battle is a thing of the past. Why risk your own CV/Ns when you can also use land-based aviation, B/AshMs, and submarines?

 

[Feanor]

Onion:
Carrier BMS
Tico BMS
Aegis BMS
Rotors - ASW and Cruise missile BMS
Handoff BMS (Non Aegis)
Hawkeye BMS
Other picket assets
Space

This really doesn't answer my question. What range would the Flankers be engaged at in a real life situation? I was hoping for something expressed in km.

 

[gf0012-aust]

This really doesn't answer my question. What range would the Flankers be engaged at in a real life situation? I was hoping for something expressed in km.

I deliberately didn't include that in the response.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yes, I agree the distances between escorts and their CVN may be longer when on station or in BMD mode, but during transit it's doubtful, IMO.

You agree only "on station"? That's based on what?

And why is it doubtful? Based on what information??

In actual fact when they're on a warfooting they assume the spread immediately they deploy - they don't wait till they get to the AOA.

You assume much, present it as fact and get it wrong as a result. You've been asked repeatedly not to do this but ignore it.

The objective of that animation is to show airbattle, not an entire sea battle involving other platforms. IMO, CBG vs CBG battle is a thing of the past. Why risk your own CV/Ns when you can use land based aviation, B/AshMs, and subs?

So we now have a storyboard designed to demonstrate the following?

• ships not at warfooting - so not reflecting actual behaviour
• no regard for fleet layers - which directly impact on vessel positioning etc
• no organic fleet AEW - something done by the US since the first Grumman Avengers were given blister radar
• an assumption that it's all close to the enemies land based air with no reaction by the other force to have anti-air and CAP up
• B/AshM's (which don't exist except in the fan club set ATM) - and aren't articulated anyway
• an assumption fleet on fleet actions are not going to happen anymore due to the assumption that Land Based air etc will deal with it (yep, that worked during the cold war!)

It's not reflective of anything real - it's a cartoon in an absolute sense of usefulness

 

[Firehorse]

Well, let me guess:
Su-33Maximum flight range, km 3,000

That's without refueling, so unrefueled combat radius is close to 1/2 of that. If they takeoff early enough, the adversary planes may not intercept them at their intended distance from a CVN. Also, they would try to interdict them before getting within the range of AShMs they carry. Yes Feanor, there would be far more than 4 Flankers + H6s, all coming from different directions, and armed with variety of missiles.

Su-35 multi-role fighter