A nordic alliance
- Thread starter JHC
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
I accidentally heard a talk radio show this afternoon on the topic. It argued that the Swedish overtures towards Denmark and Norway is about changing course for both countries. Sweden is outside NATO but inside EU and wish to get as close as possible politically to NATO without being a member. The Nowegians need to get as close as possible to the EU with becomning an actual member.
What it means is that Sweden is actually making the initial steps for applying for NATO membership, which the establishment in Sweden apparently is very much in favour of.
And NATO policy is that Sweden and Finland just have to ask and they will become members - they are already fully ready.
The aggressive attitude of the Russians seems to be a factor!
If you understand Danish, you can listen to the show here.
http://www.dr.dk/P1/orientering/indslag/2007/12/13/194121.htm
It will add great strategic depth and credibility to the defence of NATO in this region.
Anyhow, NATO standard is not directly related to quality, but certification. And it can only be done by a NATO country, which is why you see the Swedes use e.g. Denmark for certification of the Archer.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yes, very accurate wrt Sweden. Carl Bildt is also a player this time around.
And, yes, also a bit old:
One important factor in Finnish thinking is the fact that the now-independent former Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are not likely to be offered NATO membership in the next few years. Some Finnish officials believe that a move by Helsinki to join NATO would leave the Baltic states feeling even more isolated and abandoned.
Well, that obstacle is gone.
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Intressting, but do you have some links or something about denmark and other countries that are intressting in the aracher system, cant find any.
And the Swedish primeminister Rheinfeld, has stated that sweden wont join nato unless there is a vast majority in the parliament, which means that the "socialdemokratern" (largest party) needs to approve the decision.
And the Swedish primeminister Rheinfeld, has stated that sweden wont join nato unless there is a vast majority in the parliament, which means that the "socialdemokratern" (largest party) needs to approve the decision.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
There are a couple of sources re archer, here is one:
http://forsvaret.dk/FMT/Projekter+Hær/Ildstøttesystemer/
In English
http://www.fmv.se/WmTemplates/Page.aspx?id=1373
But most of the 120 million DKR was diverted to the CV90 purchase. But afaik the project is still active and the intention is to procure the archer.
http://forsvaret.dk/FMT/Projekter+Hær/Ildstøttesystemer/
In English
http://www.fmv.se/WmTemplates/Page.aspx?id=1373
But most of the 120 million DKR was diverted to the CV90 purchase. But afaik the project is still active and the intention is to procure the archer.
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JHC: That's all right.
I have a talent for ticking people off. Within the last month I have been publicly flamed in a major Danish newspaper for showing less than "due" respect to the party leader of Dansk Folkeparti - and that by no lesser person than her pet errandboy Søren Espersen. Which leads me to conclude that I must be doing something right!
I have a talent for ticking people off. Within the last month I have been publicly flamed in a major Danish newspaper for showing less than "due" respect to the party leader of Dansk Folkeparti - and that by no lesser person than her pet errandboy Søren Espersen. Which leads me to conclude that I must be doing something right!
Thats just our conservatives pipe-dream. In reality only some 14-20% of the population of finland supports NATO membership, eq. the most richest percentile and other elite. The masses, even the bulk supporters of the current Rigth-wing coalition govrenment doesent want us into NATO, and the govrnment knows this and there is absolutely no change that Bourgerous-govrnment in Finland would be bold enough to do something as astrologically stubid as to join us into NATO.
That mentioned speach and other similar statements are just desperate meassures of the pro-NATO elite to inflirtate the NATO-card into our political depate by so that I seems like we have no other choise than NATO or that we allready are there in practice, so why not sing the whole pack. Thats one unfortunate way of Finnish politics, by national-spirit we have tendency to lean towards believing 100% what someone says, as long as he presents himself as a "expert". NATO is lobbyed to us by that way.
But as for general Nordic military alliance, one has to remember, that in reality, there is only three Military threads in North that such alliance should take concern, and these are: Russia, Russia and Russia
If any alliance is thougth, one has to speak things by their real name and take it into concideration, How the Russians would react such thing? History has thougth us that pretty well.
And now as the bear is once again showing sings of life Sweden and Finland has to concider really carefully, what do they want and what is the best way to prevent themselves to be strapped into possible Russia-West conflict, that migth not be just thing of the past, as most (expecially the strongest NATO-lobby) wants us to think.
Dalregementet
New Member
It looks like...
reality has bypassed much that has been stated in this discussion. Sweden and Finland are already merging their military air control units (one airforce) and Sweden and Norway are about to coordinate defense material procurement. Sweden and Norway are even stating that joint logistics and joint units (medical etc) and much much more is being discussed (see (in Swedish): dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=572&a=686692). The cooperation with Finland is historical and very deep, much deeper than it seems officially.
It´s with some amusement I read some of our danish contributors perception of Sweden - it´s very obvious that they don´t appreciate Sweden and it´s capabilities that much. Much of this is of course historically motivated in denmark. Actually, one danish MP was wining about that the now Swedish (former danish) provinces Skåne, Halland and Blekinge should be returned to denmark? Also the now german (former danish) province Slesvieg should be returned to denmark...
Regarding Swedish Nato membership, Swedish social democrats can turn quite fast, as they have showed earlier regarding Sweden EU membership. All parties in Sweden except the communists and the green embrace the current cooperation with Nato. Also Sweden has a uniqe relation to the US in terms of defence related R&D, actually having a stronger position than many Nato members... We have an exceptionally strong and competent arms industry
The issues that the Nordic countries face are a more agressive Russia that today is very weak. Norway are concerned that they will face conflicts with russia in the Barent Region/North Pole. Sweden and Finland are concerned over the Baltic sea (russian arms upgrade), the North Stream pipeline that Sweden most probably will refuse and then the overall security for the Baltic states.
reality has bypassed much that has been stated in this discussion. Sweden and Finland are already merging their military air control units (one airforce) and Sweden and Norway are about to coordinate defense material procurement. Sweden and Norway are even stating that joint logistics and joint units (medical etc) and much much more is being discussed (see (in Swedish): dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=572&a=686692). The cooperation with Finland is historical and very deep, much deeper than it seems officially.
It´s with some amusement I read some of our danish contributors perception of Sweden - it´s very obvious that they don´t appreciate Sweden and it´s capabilities that much. Much of this is of course historically motivated in denmark. Actually, one danish MP was wining about that the now Swedish (former danish) provinces Skåne, Halland and Blekinge should be returned to denmark? Also the now german (former danish) province Slesvieg should be returned to denmark...
Regarding Swedish Nato membership, Swedish social democrats can turn quite fast, as they have showed earlier regarding Sweden EU membership. All parties in Sweden except the communists and the green embrace the current cooperation with Nato. Also Sweden has a uniqe relation to the US in terms of defence related R&D, actually having a stronger position than many Nato members... We have an exceptionally strong and competent arms industry
The issues that the Nordic countries face are a more agressive Russia that today is very weak. Norway are concerned that they will face conflicts with russia in the Barent Region/North Pole. Sweden and Finland are concerned over the Baltic sea (russian arms upgrade), the North Stream pipeline that Sweden most probably will refuse and then the overall security for the Baltic states.
*bump*
Got to find that report... a little help, please?
Oops... found it.
http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00109/progress_report_109363a.pdf (No worries. It's in english.)
Got to find that report... a little help, please?
Edit:
Oops... found it.
http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00109/progress_report_109363a.pdf (No worries. It's in english.)
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The latest development:
(h)ttp://www.barentsobserver.com/barents-founding-father-takes-on-nordic-cooperation.4493046-58932.html
At the same time, "the political elite" of EU members Finland and Sweden want to enter NATO however many Swedes and Finns do not agree with their leaders...A nordic alliance could be a first step, or a (much weaker) alternative to NATO for those two countries.
Nedless to say perhaps, but such an alliance would (if it happens) of course not mean that Denmark and Norway will leave NATO. Instead it will be a supplement.
Why would Denmark benefit? I am not sure, but Greenland is part of Denmark and when the ice has melted (it's happening quite fast it seems) large areas would open to explorations, and little Denmark could find itself in a difficult squeeze between Russia, Canada and the US in the arctic region. Denmark can to some extent rely on EU for political support, but for miliary support perhaps a nordic alliance could be helpful also to the Danes in an arctic setting?
I was surprised that Thorvald Stoltenberg (father of Norways current PM Jens) got less than six months to deliver this report. Perhaps a coincidence, but the report will be delivered at the same time as when Norway will announce its desicion to buy either Gripen or F-35...
V.
(h)ttp://www.barentsobserver.com/barents-founding-father-takes-on-nordic-cooperation.4493046-58932.html
One possible motivation Norway could have for entering a closer defence collaboration with the Finland and Sweden; whereas NATO can guarantee Norways security when it comes to an invasion, NATO cannot (and will not) get involved in potential future conflicts between Russia and Norway on resources in the Barents sea. Norway is currently negotiating with Russia on who owns an area that is roughly the size of mainland Norway, and which potentially is rich in oil and gas. Not being part of EU, Norway could find itself very isolated if Russia decides to stop negotiations and play rough...
At the same time, "the political elite" of EU members Finland and Sweden want to enter NATO however many Swedes and Finns do not agree with their leaders...A nordic alliance could be a first step, or a (much weaker) alternative to NATO for those two countries.
Nedless to say perhaps, but such an alliance would (if it happens) of course not mean that Denmark and Norway will leave NATO. Instead it will be a supplement.
Why would Denmark benefit? I am not sure, but Greenland is part of Denmark and when the ice has melted (it's happening quite fast it seems) large areas would open to explorations, and little Denmark could find itself in a difficult squeeze between Russia, Canada and the US in the arctic region. Denmark can to some extent rely on EU for political support, but for miliary support perhaps a nordic alliance could be helpful also to the Danes in an arctic setting?
I was surprised that Thorvald Stoltenberg (father of Norways current PM Jens) got less than six months to deliver this report. Perhaps a coincidence, but the report will be delivered at the same time as when Norway will announce its desicion to buy either Gripen or F-35...
V.
http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/fd/The-Ministry/defence-minister-anne-grete-strom-erichs/Speeches-and-articles/2008/forsterket-nordisk-forsvarssamarbeid-.html?id=535628
google translated:
Also notice that the Nordic defence ministers stress that this closer collaboration is not a replacement but a supplement to UN, EU, and NATO. AFAIK, this happens with NATOs blessing -- it is probably seen a a way to pull Finland and Sweden closer to NATO without actually those countries becoming members of NATO.
Comments?
V
google translated:
This is what I expected would happen... It will be interesting to see how deep this defence collaboration becomes. By the end of this year and early next year we should know more about that.
Also notice that the Nordic defence ministers stress that this closer collaboration is not a replacement but a supplement to UN, EU, and NATO. AFAIK, this happens with NATOs blessing -- it is probably seen a a way to pull Finland and Sweden closer to NATO without actually those countries becoming members of NATO.
Comments?
V
Interesting development indeed. This can probably increase the cost efficiency in some areas - and hopefully also improve the forces in other.
Sweden in NATO?
Well, the right-center government approve this but right party "moderaterna" want to have the social democratic party with them in this issue. It give the decision more legitimacy. I think I have heard even Social democrats have argued for a membership in NATO, but not with same eager as the Right-center-coalition. The social democrats probably want to have a broad support from the population.
One other important issue are Finland. Sweden want to have Finland in to NATO at the same time.
Sweden in NATO?
Well, the right-center government approve this but right party "moderaterna" want to have the social democratic party with them in this issue. It give the decision more legitimacy. I think I have heard even Social democrats have argued for a membership in NATO, but not with same eager as the Right-center-coalition. The social democrats probably want to have a broad support from the population.
One other important issue are Finland. Sweden want to have Finland in to NATO at the same time.
As a buffer zone between the Russians and them similar to the Continuation War (for non-Finns WWII). Make no mistake we are grateful for private Swedish contributions against the Reds but the Swedish government left us high and dry so there would be no way we would be even willing to consider a Nordic Alliance without Sweden contributing its fair share and a forward defensive posture with basing in Finland to reinforce our territorial integrity. NATO or neutrality are our best bets as they are proven solutions and there is serioos debate about joining NATO with Denmark and Norway.
Well, an Nordic alliance are perhaps not so likely, but cooperation. There are a way to get "more bang for the buck" so to speak. I mean cooperative purchase
and such things. I think it's better to cooperate in small scale - and see what happens. Not make any "big statements".
hvidtfeldt
New Member
Well I also find those statements amusing AND embarrasing.
But I recommend you do like most danes, just lean back and laugh at them.
I guess you are referring to the 'hill-billies' from Dansk Folkeparti !
They are hardly politicians , rather they are more like clowns (and not successfull as such)
I like Sweden and have nothing but respect for your armed forces and defence industry.
But there is still a lot internal mockery between Denmark and Norway, Finland andSweden, Sweden and Denmark, Norway and Sweden. all of historical reasons :shudder
Dalregementet
New Member
There are still some bad blood, mainly between Denmark and Sweden, that time has a hard time to repair. Still, we can cooperate brilliantly in operations like the UN mission in Bosnia etc. Security wise, we depend on each other and our only potential enemy is russia. If Sweden and Finland would join Nato, then our joint defence would be so much stronger since we could act in a perfect orchestration - A joint air force of about 250 aircrafts which is a lot. A strong navy in the baltic sea and credible well equipped land forces.Well I also find those statements amusing AND embarrasing.
But I recommend you do like most danes, just lean back and laugh at them.
I guess you are referring to the 'hill-billies' from Dansk Folkeparti !
They are hardly politicians , rather they are more like clowns (and not successfull as such)
I like Sweden and have nothing but respect for your armed forces and defence industry.
But there is still a lot internal mockery between Denmark and Norway, Finland and Sweden, Sweden and Denmark, Norway and Sweden. all of historical reasons :shudder
One thing though that people are not that aware of is that Sweden and Norway becomes more end more dependant of each other industry wise - thats not really the case with Denmark and Finland. Swedish/Norwegian industry cooperation will increase dramatically over the coming years and that will create possitive effects on many other sectors too - like defence.