Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Aussie Digger]

does anyone know how long each hornet will be outta squadron operation during cbr work.also how many planes at a time will be outta service undergoing cbr?

The number of legacy Hornets destined to undergo CBR replacement work has been reduced to only 10.

Apparently the entire CBR and rebuild process takes about 9 months, per airframe.

The current Hornet Upgrade Phase 3.1 "blending and patching" operations should be sufficient to see the legacy Hornet fleet through to their intended retirement date, somewhere from 2017 - 2020 I believe.

 

[splat]

hello people


can anyone tell me the governments thinking with replacing the hornets APG-65 radar when the jets have been in service from 24 or so years ago and with about 8 or so to go before they begin the withdrawal from service transition.i know the region has been aquiring the mighty suhkoi flanker,but why was'nt hornets radar and other upgrades done at the aircrafts estimated in service half way point?

 

[StevoJH]

hello people


can anyone tell me the governments thinking with replacing the hornets APG-65 radar when the jets have been in service from 24 or so years ago and with about 8 or so to go before they begin the withdrawal from service transition.i know the region has been aquiring the mighty suhkoi flanker,but why was'nt hornets radar and other upgrades done at the aircrafts estimated in service half way point?

It is possible that the replacement radar was not available then, or that the money to fund it was not there. These aircraft need the avionics upgrades so that they remain viable as a Combat force until such time as the F-35 becomes available.

 

[Todjaeger]

hello people


can anyone tell me the governments thinking with replacing the hornets APG-65 radar when the jets have been in service from 24 or so years ago and with about 8 or so to go before they begin the withdrawal from service transition.i know the region has been aquiring the mighty suhkoi flanker,but why was'nt hornets radar and other upgrades done at the aircrafts estimated in service half way point?

Not quite sure what you mean. The F/A-18 A/B Hornets currently used by the RAAF are equipped with the APG-73 radar, not the APG-65. This was installed as part of the HUG Phase 2 which started ~ March 2002 and completed ~ August 2003. At this point, the oldest RAAF Hornet was roughly 19 years old, and the newest about 13 years old. Given that the RAAF Hornets were/are expected to operate until the 2015 timeframe, a system upgrade in the 2000-2005 timeframe would coincide with when a MLU would be appropriate.

-Cheers

 

[splat]

Not quite sure what you mean. The F/A-18 A/B Hornets currently used by the RAAF are equipped with the APG-73 radar, not the APG-65. This was installed as part of the HUG Phase 2 which started ~ March 2002 and completed ~ August 2003. At this point, the oldest RAAF Hornet was roughly 19 years old, and the newest about 13 years old. Given that the RAAF Hornets were/are expected to operate until the 2015 timeframe, a system upgrade in the 2000-2005 timeframe would coincide with when a MLU would be appropriate.

-Cheers

ok the APG-65 was replaced by the APG-73 when the oldest aircraft was 17 or so years old,but what i'm asking is why did'nt they upgrade them from the mid nineties instead of from 2002?in my lay persons point view i'm thinking it would have been a better outcome for money spent instead of the new radars only seeing 8 or so years service.

 

[StevoJH]

ok the APG-65 was replaced by the APG-73 when the oldest aircraft was 17 or so years old,but what i'm asking is why did'nt they upgrade them from the mid nineties instead of from 2002?in my lay persons point view i'm thinking it would have been a better outcome for money spent instead of the new radars only seeing 8 or so years service.

In 2002 they still had roughly 12-15 years of service left though.

 

[splat]

In 2002 they still had roughly 12-15 years of service left though.

ok ,i see now...thanks.

 

[splat]

Not quite sure what you mean. The F/A-18 A/B Hornets currently used by the RAAF are equipped with the APG-73 radar, not the APG-65. This was installed as part of the HUG Phase 2 which started ~ March 2002 and completed ~ August 2003. At this point, the oldest RAAF Hornet was roughly 19 years old, and the newest about 13 years old. Given that the RAAF Hornets were/are expected to operate until the 2015 timeframe, a system upgrade in the 2000-2005 timeframe would coincide with when a MLU would be appropriate.

-Cheers

i see now...thanks

 

[Abraham Gubler]

In 2002 they still had roughly 12-15 years of service left though.

No they didn't. The average service life of the Hornet fleet as delivered was this year.

The Hornet Upgrade only happened because the Government decided to replace the Hornet and F-111 fleet in 2002 with a weapon system, the F-35, that would not be available until the mid 2010s. The original plan - before the capability options was explored in detail - was to replace them about now.

Because of this the Hornets needed a useful life extension of up to 10 years. This saw the mission systems upgrade with things like the APG-73 and the airframe upgrade through a range of projects and the centre barrel replacement.

Why weren't the Hornets upgraded at mid life in the 1990s? Well a good question. Probably because what little money the RAAF had at this time of massive cutbacks to the ADF was spent on upgrading the F-111s because of strategic misconceptions about what it brings to Australia. A much more useful and manageable approach would have been to do what is kind of being done now - upgrade the Hornets mid 90s to the HUG standard and replace the F-111s with Night Attack F/A-18D Hornets.

 

[Aussie Digger]

hello people


can anyone tell me the governments thinking with replacing the hornets APG-65 radar when the jets have been in service from 24 or so years ago and with about 8 or so to go before they begin the withdrawal from service transition.i know the region has been aquiring the mighty suhkoi flanker,but why was'nt hornets radar and other upgrades done at the aircrafts estimated in service half way point?

Simple. 30+ years of sustained under-funding for Defence...

The F-111's should have been retired in the 90's with F-15E the logical replacement. RAAF would have few capability concerns with it's tactical fighter force at present had this happened.

RAN should have had a new Destroyer acquisition project from the mid to late 90's to enter service from 2005 or so and thus FFG-UP could have been eliminated with RAN Surface Fleet concentrated upon ANZAC's and Destroyers.

The list of "could have beens" is endless.

 

[winnyfield]

Simple. 30+ years of sustained under-funding for Defence...

The F-111's should have been retired in the 90's with F-15E the logical replacement. RAAF would have few capability concerns with it's tactical fighter force at present had this happened.

......

The list of "could have beens" is endless.

People forget that in the early Howard years, defence spending went down. It was only after Timor (1999) that a new White Paper was made and investments were made in defence. By then opportunities on some systems had closed - a choice between interim and future.

 

[alexsa]

People forget that in the early Howard years, defence spending went down. It was only after Timor (1999) that a new White Paper was made and investments were made in defence. By then opportunities on some systems had closed - a choice between interim and future.

These should have's don't belong to the "Howard years". The two additional FFG's basiacally killed the perth Class (CFAdams) replacement at the time it should have been in full swing. An ALP decision

The strike aircarft replacement is again a project that should have been under serious consideration for implementation in the late 90's. any failure to progress this belongs to the ALP.

 

[TrueBlueAussie]

What do you call a F111 With a MESA.???

Pigtail

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,24677403-3102,00.html

And? The delays in the Wedgetail program are not new, they have been discussed previously...

Please try and ADD something to the discussion...

AD

 

[TrueBlueAussie]

This is a new artical, There was more news to announce more delays and if the government will go ahead with the project at all now...

Maybe you just didn't read it..

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

This is a new artical, There was more news to announce more delays and if the government will go ahead with the project at all now...

Maybe you just didn't read it..

I think he meant write something about it in your post rather than just put up a link. Like "I just read some interesting news on Project Wedgetail, what do you guys think?" ect ect. No one is going to look at the link if you don't let people know what its about. Additionally simply posting some info and not actually injecting some personal input doesn't do much to further discussion on the issue, if you know what I mean?

AS for the article. MESA is a hideously complicated system, and remember the RAAF was customer no 1. I'm personally pretty confident LM can get it sorted and to us in a reasonable timeframe, even if the RAAF should be playing with their new toys now. The capability is unmatched, Wedgetail HAS to happen AFAIC.

If the DefMin was to cancel the project i'd assume E2-D's radar and avionics package would be acquired and integrated on the 737 airframes. PHALCON could be another closely examined option, obviously again on the 737 airframes. After Wedgetail i would assume the lowest risk option would be quite attractive. Any other thoughts to likely options for the RAAF if wedgetail goes the way of the sea sprite?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I'm personally pretty confident LM can get it sorted and to us in a reasonable timeframe

There are a whole raft of others at a connected level who have a very low level of confidence. Boeing are having a very very bad run.

 

[swerve]

There are a whole raft of others at a connected level who have a very low level of confidence. Boeing are having a very very bad run.

Do you know anything you can share about the Turks? Their defence procurement website says about the Peace Eagle "Due to delay in development by Boeing, program schedule and technical and administrative effects of delay are under evaluation." - last updated 26-02-2008.

I can imagine the Turks switching to Phalcon if Northrop Grumman & Boeing can't get their act together, but only if they lose all confidence in the radar.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Do you know anything you can share about the Turks? Their defence procurement website says about the Peace Eagle "Due to delay in development by Boeing, program schedule and technical and administrative effects of delay are under evaluation." - last updated 26-02-2008.

I can imagine the Turks switching to Phalcon if Northrop Grumman & Boeing can't get their act together, but only if they lose all confidence in the radar.

We recently signed an MOU with the Turkish Govt, so I would assume that they are getting decent access to generalist issues with Wedgetail. IIRC they (like Aust) have had some issues over Boeings disconnect between what they say is happening and what is actually happening.

We're both probably at the point of no return though. The Seasprite fiasco in Oz looms large though....

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I don’t want to say too much here as I have an article on Wedgetail that should be public this week or next week so and I don’t want to give the game away before then. But while there is a new issue with Wedgetail the poor schedule performance previously and the lack of much public information about the new problems is such that there are lot of doom sayers out there at the moment taking advantage of the information vacuum. From my perspective this is not a game stopper unless someone within the DMO or Government wants to make it one. Certainly no where near the problems Seasprite was in during its last days.

 

[splat]

in regards to super hornets rcs adavatage over flanker,is super hornets rcs advantage at an optimium if at the same altitude,on a closing course,dead ahead,and if so does the rcs advantage diminish if the super hornets opponent is at a different altitude and not dead ahead but off to the left or right by so many degrees?