Is the Taliban an insurgent or terrorist organisation?

[Beatmaster]

How is it possible that terrorist organisations like Taliban and many others can maintain them selfs and even growing stronger?
The west is spending lots of money and fight day in day out to defeat this kind of organisations.
When i view this video then it becomes very clear that this problem is way bigger than it apperently was.

VIDEO Source:www.nato.int

The Taliban and her "sister" organisations seem to have a endless organisation and chain of command that keeps regenerating itself to maintain there power and even win hearts and minds.
As Ahmed Rashid said in this video the Taliban and many other terrorist organisations will continue to do whatever they do best.
He also said that Pakistan and other country's near Afganistan are perfect grounds to recruit new units.
He even said that terrorist organisations will grow to a global problem mutch bigger than they already are.
So what is the would be the best way for the west to deal with this on the long run?

If you think about what this Ahmed Rashid said than it seems that we actually
help the Taliban and other terrorist organisations to grow to the level they are right now.
And there are so many country's without a good govermental structure or even a solid law that these Talibanlike organisations will have a way out to start all over.
So infact afganistan is under siege to get these guys out and rebuild the system so that it can maintain itself without the Taliban.
So that these people finally get education and medical treatment for example and in the mean time the taliban is rebuilding the core of there organisation in a other country.
So when we are done here we can start again in Pakistan for example.

And it looks like that we almost run out of money to get Afganistan in the right direction.
So what must the west do to?
Get the hel out of there and let them?
Overtrow the system to make sure there will be a solid system to take away alternative that Talibanlike organisations offer or brainwash into the local people.
Or is this battle going on and on and on without a happy ending?
So can the experts on this forum give there opinions about this hole problem?

 

[Jecito]

The Taliban

The Taliban literally 'students' are a faction of Islam that believes in a strict interpretation of Islamic law. That is why you saw them blow up historic statues because they believe that they were 'false idols', stopped woman from leaving the house etc. So they use their interpretation of the Islamic religion to motivate their followers. In the poor wasteland that is Afghanistan this appeals to the poorly educated farmers and workers who look to religion as their main focus, pretty much like Europe in the middle ages. It is hard for someone in the west to understand as religion has fallen by the wayside in most western countries. So the taliban appeal to the peasants islamic beliefs, which provides a great motivator for them to carry out their attacks, even suicide attacks.
Afghanistan has had alot of 'theories' lately. They have gone from a Kingdom, to dictatorship, to Communism to Theologic government (Taliban) and now democracy all in the space of a lifetime. Add to that decades of constant war. The Taliban brought relative stability to Afghanistan, but it was the brutal chinese sort of stability that was enforced by fear and intimidation (You steal a loaf of bread and they cut your hand off). Are they a terrorist organisation? Depends, they will probably see it as a war of liberation, or a reconquest of what they lost. Similar situation to South Vietnam and the viet cong, were they terrorists? Or were they just trying to get their preferred style of government (However horrid and dispicable it is) in place. Using Assymetrical warfare such as IED's and Suicide bombers, same tactics they used against the Soviets, poor man's army, but I'm sure if they had B-2 bombers and Ac-130 Gunships they would use them against NATO as well. But their greatest weapon is that they try and get it into place appealing to the same types of people that win most revolutions, the same type of people the communists appealed to in the cold war, the poorest.
Win over the poor and you win the war, but it takes more then building schools and hospitals, the taliban can blow them up as soon as NATO leaves, you need to build trust, to convince them that NATO will not abandon afghanistan just as the US abandoned South Vietnam, and most US allies have abandoned Iraq. That is a much tougher task then bombing a terrorist camp of building a school.

Do some paragraphing.
- SABRE

 

[Beatmaster]

So you are saying that if the west wins the poor they could get this problem under control and offer these people a new start?

Parts on your comment i must agree but keep in mind that most of these people fear the Taliban in such a way that they embrace the Taliban concept.
Because Afganistan goverment is not a goverment at all and they are mostly corrupt, so this makes enforcing law and order without soldiers or peacekeepers while building trust almost impossible.
So winning hearts and mind alone will not do the trick.
I guess that the local autorities and the goverment in general need a reform and cleansweep to.
Before the hole idea actually start working.
In the video is clearly said that most people do not know what a goverment actually means and what it suppost to be standing for.
To them we are just a nother bunch of major powers that invade there home country, lets not forget that the past has proven that all other conflict's in this region did have nothing to do with help the poor and give them a new start.
The people in Afganistan did know hell many times before due the past conflicts and for them this is just another "Hell"
So most of these people are not able to see beyond the Taliban concept, this fact makes it a hole lot more harder to get anything done in the first place.
Secondly the recruiting of Taliban Soldiers in Pakistan is not helping either to the cause it self.

So i think personally that taking on the problem globally would be more succesfull than regionally.
But money and willing to help are also issues that raises the question or this can be done in the first place because the USA and EU alone will not be able to fund such a wide spread task or operation.
And even if they could it would take many many decades to get this done.
Iraq is a little differend becuase it did have a working goverment before the invasion, and now they have a new goverment that is very weak but still a million times more effective than Afganistan ever did have.
So getting Iraq on track may be hard but way more likely than "project Afganistan"

Also the unstability in the region because of the problems with US/EU/Israel/ Versus Iran and other country's makes the hole problem even bigger.
Because there may be a new war in the making again in the same region.
This means that the local people there do not have a clue what we are actually trying to do there, this fact will help the Taliban and other terrorist organisations to get a even bigger support platform.

So in short it is a bit more complex than we all think.
This hole concept to rebuild these regions is perhaps the most difficult task of all and even harder is to explain the people in the west why we would even try to do so.
Because the number of bodybags are growing everyday and there will come a day that the west will get protests from there own cilvilians because they do not wanna have bodybags.

 

[Marc 1]

In answer to the question in your title, it depends on what side of the idealogical fence you sit. For example: the Germans during WWII viewed the resistances in Russia, France, Greece etc as terrorists, the allies viewed them as freedom fighters.

From my point of view, terrorists. Al Qadir, it's offshoots and the Taliban haven't exactly engendered a warm fuzzy feeling in me when they get on the internet saying they want to kill me because I do not hold the same religeous beliefs as they do. I believe people should be free to hold their own religeous beliefs or none at all if they wish, without removing one of the most basic human rights (ie the right to life). So from my perspective, terrorists.

Incidentally, Americans don't do themselves any favours continually invoking the name of god in all their political pronouncements - haven't you guys heard of the principle of separation of religeon and state? Sarah Palin recently commented that she thought the conflict in Afghanistan was about religeon. A christian fundamentalist scares me as much as any other type of fundamentalist.

 

[Beatmaster]

. A christian fundamentalist scares me as much as any other type of fundamentalist.

I agree with what you are saying any fundamentalist is a reason to fear specially when they use bombs and other nasty stuff to share a idea or opinion.

But behind this hole problem there are so many factors that are not all controlled by fundamentalistic thinking.
And if you ask me? i would say help these people but only if you can and only if they wanna get helped otherwise you will give non-fundamentalistic people a reason to become fundamentalistic due recruitment of fundamentalistic organisations.
So it it a very difficult problem to solve because the fine line between good or bad is very easy crossed.

 

[Pro'forma]

Taliban fighting to replace the factionalism with islamic Law (law enforcing by executions) is close to revolution.
UIFSA (United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan), very radical
rule or "law" to change the military and government of the country.

Like past feudal fundamentalism fighting against socialism, democracy and
human rights. History of chaos is placed in the middle of Asia and Europe.
We could call this world war three, when Talibans have crossed the
borders of the country called Afghanistan.

 

[waraich]

Talaban

Talaban have sunni school of thaught belong to different 5000 madrasa working different part of pakistan.

They only resist when some one attack on them.Most of Talaban are from pushtoon ,jatt and rajput warriors tribes.

They have their own cammand and control system.Their leader Mullah umar is out of wanted list.There is a chance after success of peacefull takes in Saudi Arabia ,both US and Talaban will agreed to stop war with each other.

 

[SaudiArabian]

The west is spending lots of money and fight day in day out to defeat this kind of organisations.

fighting by guns to defeat these kinds of ideology-based organizations is a failed policy

unfortunately the west failed to fight them on ideological/religious grounds but instead it gave more reason and causes that helped Taliban/Al-Qaedah to recruit more people.

 

[waraich]

fighting by guns to defeat these kinds of ideology-based organizations is a failed policy

unfortunately the west failed to fight them on ideological/religious grounds but instead it gave more reason and causes that helped Taliban/Al-Qaedah to recruit more people.

Yes,there are arround more then 5000 madrasas inside pakistan of talaban,they are all operaing on basis of self support system , more than one million talaban graduated from them each year .They have very strong social and economic system and have roots in general public.They dont need any training of gurilla war fare.They belong to ethnic warrior clans pushtoon,rajput,jatt etc.

They played very important role in IIWW fighting from british army against germans.

 

[Marc 1]

fighting by guns to defeat these kinds of ideology-based organizations is a failed policy

unfortunately the west failed to fight them on ideological/religious grounds but instead it gave more reason and causes that helped Taliban/Al-Qaedah to recruit more people.

How do you stop them? You mentioned idealogical/religious grounds - care to explain?

 

[SaudiArabian]

How do you stop them? You mentioned idealogical/religious grounds - care to explain?

by education. instead of throwing them in torture prisons (Guantanamu for example) , they should've been in a de-radicalization program.

here there were hundreds who are sympathizers with Al-Qaedah and therefore they are potentially terrorists/suicide bombers. they got arrested for their ideology but they aren't sent to any prison for harsh interogations or torture.

instead , they are sent to a prison (but it is called center instead but they cannot get out of it unless they graduate) where they get de-radicalized and their ideology is changed. eventually in few years they graduate and change 180 degrees. the govt then helps them on marriage and obtaining homes and decent jobs. this plan worked amazingly here and it still does. various other countries expressed their interests in having similar programs.

 

[waraich]

by education. instead of throwing them in torture prisons (Guantanamu for example) , they should've been in a de-radicalization program.

here there were hundreds who are sympathizers with Al-Qaedah and therefore they are potentially terrorists/suicide bombers. they got arrested for their ideology but they aren't sent to any prison for harsh interogations or torture.

instead , they are sent to a prison (but it is called center instead but they cannot get out of it unless they graduate) where they get de-radicalized and their ideology is changed. eventually in few years they graduate and change 180 degrees. the govt then helps them on marriage and obtaining homes and decent jobs. this plan worked amazingly here and it still does. various other countries expressed their interests in having similar programs.

Agreed .

Talaban are basically same fighters who defeated Rrussia for US and Pakistan intrest.They can be isolated from Al Qaida because they have different school of thaught ,which dont allow innocent killing or 9/11 type of activities.

 

[nevidimka]

Considering Taleban overthrew and rules Afghanistan for a short period, I dont think they can be labelled as a terrorist Org, rather an insurgent?

Taleban never died thanks to Pakistan and Al Qaeda I believe. they just retreated into Pakistan and regrouped while hitting US guerrilla style while gaining more support and fanbase.

If Us loses and withdraws from Afghanistan to let them overcome by the Taleban, the repurcussions will be huge. Its next stop will be Pakistan.
Its a problem created by the west and Pakistan, and is now haunting everybody.

 

[eaf-f16]

by education. instead of throwing them in torture prisons (Guantanamu for example) , they should've been in a de-radicalization program.

here there were hundreds who are sympathizers with Al-Qaedah and therefore they are potentially terrorists/suicide bombers. they got arrested for their ideology but they aren't sent to any prison for harsh interogations or torture.

instead , they are sent to a prison (but it is called center instead but they cannot get out of it unless they graduate) where they get de-radicalized and their ideology is changed. eventually in few years they graduate and change 180 degrees. the govt then helps them on marriage and obtaining homes and decent jobs. this plan worked amazingly here and it still does. various other countries expressed their interests in having similar programs.

I've heard of the Saudi ideological rehabilitation centers before and saw a program about them on the BBC. They interviewed a failed suicide-bomber who had burn-scars all over his body and he was very disfigured. When he talked about his "ideological transformation" he didn't seem to be at all disingenuous. The Saudi programs have been successful. But, I'm not sure to what degree this program can be legally replicated in other countries because it does sound a lot like thought-control policing (i.e., imprisoning people for following a certain ideology is not what most consider to be democratic or humane, no matter how pragmatic it is for fighting terrorism.)

Considering Taleban overthrew and rules Afghanistan for a short period, I dont think they can be labelled as a terrorist Org, rather an insurgent?

Taleban never died thanks to Pakistan and Al Qaeda I believe. they just retreated into Pakistan and regrouped while hitting US guerrilla style while gaining more support and fanbase.

If Us loses and withdraws from Afghanistan to let them overcome by the Taleban, the repurcussions will be huge. Its next stop will be Pakistan.
Its a problem created by the west and Pakistan, and is now haunting everybody.

Not really. If ISAF/US forces withdraw the Afghan state would collapse and power would eventually fall back to the Taliban. Nothing beyond that would happen. In fact, it may even benefit Pakistan if they withdraw since then it would no longer be forced by the US to pursue self-defeating hostilities with people whom generally don't threaten it.

Pakistan is not at all concerned about what the Taliban or the Pakistani Taliban can do to the Pakistani state since they can't realistically threaten it. It's about as fantastical as saying that Darfuri rebels can overthrow the Sudanese government and take over Sudan. Never going to happen in a million years. Moreover, it would do the Taliban no good to directly challenge the Pakistani government in such a way and this fact is not lost on Taliban and Pakistani Taliban leaders. I would even say that the ISI's clandestine relations with Taliban leaders are exactly the reason why the Taliban would never do such thing.

About the Taliban's base of support in Afghanistan: it doesn't really have one. Afghans are nostalgic about the relatively low-crime rate and stability of the Taliban-era but I don't think this it goes beyond that.

The Taliban imposes law and taxation as means of gaining control and weakening the Afghan state's control and credibility and as means of gaining revenue. The Taliban generally does not provide local populations with any services beyond law-enforcement. The Taliban isn't like Iraqi militant groups who provide a wide-range of services like housing and schooling to local populations.

In areas where traditional tribal structures are more prominent, the Taliban's popularity is pretty dismal because of their tendency to kill tribal leaders who cross them. The Taliban's anti-tribal policies are what may spell the end for it.

P.S: It was the Taliban who gave Al-Qaida a new lease on life. Not the other way around.

 

[BPacifist]

Conflabs with people from FATA and NWFP have left me convinced they view the Taliban as fighting an occupation - the American occupation of Afghanistan. To them the border stands for nothing, they'd 'fight anywhere to expel the occupier from Pukhtun lands'.

Recent clashes the Pak Army has had to face have reportedly included a constant stream of fighters from the Afghan side of the pouring in to fight 'American allies'.

They're not indoctrinated students. Every region has its group of liberation fighters, either stand-alone or networked to some superior commander. But they probbably accept the unifying notoriety the name Taliban brings them.

That's what I've seemed to gather. Given the sentiment, I'm compelled to conclude you can't win the war unless they are somehow brought over to your side.

 

[mattyem]

I agree in that this conflict will not be soon won by means of conventional warfare. Conflict is a normal way of life in the area for many of the Afghans the only thing that changes is who they are in conflict with.

So saying that i'd have to agree with what Bpacifist said.

It will be interesting too see what the situation is like in 10-15 years time with a new leader at the helmof the US of A

 

[SABRE]

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