Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?

Status
Not open for further replies.

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Sharing technology and Intel means give and take.
It's "give and take" where its relevant. It's not automatic for goodness sake.

Not all european or scandinavian countries get the same access that the UK or Denmark might get.

The fact that you are even challenging this raises some serious questions as to whether you work in this space.

The most basic security and clearance training provided to bearers of military and industry sensitive material makes it very clear.

the docs are coloured, then they are labeled, and then each page is tagged.

being the chair of a european consoortium doesn't mean squat and has no relevance on what material is released to individual countries.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think Sweden get access to all information it needs/wants because of it´s importance as a technology partner and an important intelligence source for the US/NATO.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/control/DTSISweden.pdf
Sweden (and everyone else) gets access to what is relevant to the partnership.

AGAIN. It does not get all - and a rotating chair position as alluded to before is not even remotely close to supporting your position.

It does not get access to everything that it "wants".
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think Sweden get access to all information it needs/wants because of it´s importance as a technology partner and an important intelligence source for the US/NATO.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/control/DTSISweden.pdf
A couple of points, this first with regards to the link provided. Take a look here at Title 22, Chapter 39 of the US Code. It covers the sections on US arms export (and related technologies). It covers some of what needs to occur for some items to be sold or the technology shared. From what I remember when I had been reading through the actual individual sections, certain countries where named as exceptions to the rule. Canada comes to mind specifically as not requiring Congressional (Senate, really) approval for significant defense (US spelling ;)) purchases, and therefore has a different FMS profile for a lack of a better descriptor. Please note the very top where it shows the date. This is from January of 2007 and as such (along with the Arms Export Control Act which replaced the old FMS process circa 2005 IIRC) would supersede the article linked to on FAS.

I think Sweden get access to all information it needs/wants...
This little gem makes me question whether you have any experience with classified/proprietary information, or if you are just having people on.

The source of the information (be it US, UK, NATO or whoever) decides what information Sweden gets, not Sweden. Unless the source were to open up and provide everything, Sweden would have no way of knowing if everything it wanted/needed was available, nevermind being provided.

Sweden might be quite happy with the information provided, but that is a very different situation from getting all information it would want/need.

-Cheers
 
Last edited:

stigmata

New Member
Todjaeger said:
I have nothing to offer as proof of that, aside from the suggestion that if the JSF is to be as advanced as intended with a host of capabilities new to most users, then the receiving nations/air forces would need to be briefed on those differences and ways to exploit them.
As a NATO partner, Norwegian intel access should be the same regardless of choise of aircraft as long as it is not JSF specific. my 2c
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As a NATO partner, Norwegian intel access should be the same regardless of choise of aircraft as long as it is not JSF specific. my 2c
What intel source?

You do realise that every nation in NATO witholds intel to some extent?

Considering that this topic is about JSF - then Norway is privy to platform information the same as everyone else.

It's the external participants like Israel and Singapore that don't get full access.

btw. JSF is not a NATO solution, so I'm not sure why NATO members would get privilege anyway. NATO members in the partnership do - and thats the only thing that counts.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
Norway is on the distribution list for a number of future technology developments.

When we get them the docs are labeled with who has permission to view.

Norway (not Sweden) is on a number of them - and they're leading edge future systems.

thats the best that you'll get from me. if it's not enough then I understand and accept your vision of whatever you want anyway.

Check out this Company distribution list:

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kog/news/newsarchive/


It's a small group compare too others, but it deliver High End products in many fields. Including Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace has signed a final long-term framework agreement with Lockheed Martin for the production of parts in composite and titanium for the new Joint Strike Fighter (JSF - F-35 Lightning II) fighter craft.

There are others deals for the US ARMY too.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Lets say SAAB get the contract, - do you think their stocks would go up with any significant amount ?:smooth
Any sale is a good sale - their stocks would have to go up.

The money is not in the sale though - it's the support that generates revenue.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
I'm certain that Kongsberg Group will some get big kontracts fra JAS if we goes for Sweeden.. As we would with LM.
 
Last edited:

Dalregementet

New Member
Sweden (and everyone else) gets access to what is relevant to the partnership.

AGAIN. It does not get all - and a rotating chair position as alluded to before is not even remotely close to supporting your position.

It does not get access to everything that it "wants".
What you say it´s true and no one gets access to everything. Sweden doesn´t provide all it´s intel to other countries etc and the other way around. But information that is relevant for Sweden, information that don´t reveal industrial secrets, and then the colour on the documents is irrelevant.

Sweden aquired an SU 27 radar from russia and that one has been examined and tested carefully. I'm sure most Nato countries has been given access to the results from the testing.
 

ASFC

New Member
What you say it´s true and no one gets access to everything. Sweden doesn´t provide all it´s intel to other countries etc and the other way around. But information that is relevant for Sweden, information that don´t reveal industrial secrets, and then the colour on the documents is irrelevant.

Sweden aquired an SU 27 radar from russia and that one has been examined and tested carefully. I'm sure most Nato countries has been given access to the results from the testing.
I have never worked in the military industry, but even I have an understanding of what 'coloured documents' and 'eyes only' means. Unless you are envolved with this sort of intel sharing then how do you know what Sweden gets, what it wants or what it gives to other countries other than snippets they might have mentioned to the media???:unknown

The sort of people who say that the colour the document is irrelevent are the sort of people who leave stuff on trains in Surrey and p!ss of their allies in the process!
 

Dalregementet

New Member
I have never worked in the military industry, but even I have an understanding of what 'coloured documents' and 'eyes only' means. Unless you are envolved with this sort of intel sharing then how do you know what Sweden gets, what it wants or what it gives to other countries other than snippets they might have mentioned to the media???:unknown

The sort of people who say that the colour the document is irrelevent are the sort of people who leave stuff on trains in Surrey and p!ss of their allies in the process!

I haven´t said that coloured documents are irrelevant - I said that Sweden gets the information it needs and that Norway, Denmark doesn´t have a significant advantage over Sweden in that respect - That´s an illusion.
Surrey is not Stockholm and I never leave "stuff" around ;). My focus now is
"civil security" and that is an area where the civil and the military world sort of blends together. Here, as in the military world, information and information handling is the key, and here, as far as I know, we have the best systems availiable :D.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Exactly. The swedes get access to significant material - they DO NOT get access to all NATO material. They definitely DO NOT get access to all material that the Danes or Norwegians get.

Material access is based on relevance. What may be provided to Denmark, Norway or even Finland even may have no relevance to and for Sweden.

In addition, the Swedes DO NOT get access to information that may be provided to other Scandinavian countries.

In an australian context, there is some information that is relevant to us that may be provided, but we also don't need access to regional material unless it has international implications (eg but no exclusively terrorism)
So this could therefore perhaps depend on which area we are talking about?

And could not economical interests also play a role? In the very specific field of fighter jets, since Sweden got a jet that is right now competing with F-35, Super Hornet, and F-16 for contracts, could it be that the US is hesitant to share intel with Sweden within this field?

Likewise, could it be that within other fields, the US and Sweden may share intel that is not automatically forwarded to e.g. Denmark and Norway?

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=18984


V
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I haven´t said that coloured documents are irrelevant - I said that Sweden gets the information it needs and that Norway, Denmark doesn´t have a significant advantage over Sweden in that respect - That´s an illusion.
Surrey is not Stockholm and I never leave "stuff" around ;). My focus now is
"civil security" and that is an area where the civil and the military world sort of blends together. Here, as in the military world, information and information handling is the key, and here, as far as I know, we have the best systems availiable :D.
I'm assuming that he was pointing out that Sweden is not a NATO member, unlike Norway, and as such would not have access to the same amount of intel information from NATO countries, including the US.
 

Dalregementet

New Member
I'm assuming that he was pointing out that Sweden is not a NATO member, unlike Norway, and as such would not have access to the same amount of intel information from NATO countries, including the US.
That's is of course a well known fact that Sweden and Finland is not Nato members, but they are "silent allies", slowly converting that to active members. I think that many times on this forum, people underestimates other peoples knowledge.

Few countries know so much about russia as Sweden and Finland, this because of historical reasons. The relation between Sweden and russia is very long, russia is in fact named after a province in Sweden, Roslagen, i.e "Ros" lagen. 1700, Swedish troops defetated a numerical russian superior force at Narva. 1709 a Swedish army was defeated at Poltava - this marks the start for russia as a great power. This will be celebrated all over russia next year... 1790, half on russias baltic fleet was sunk at the battle if Svensksund etc etc.

Most Nato countries have only war experiences with russia/soviet during the last decade. Swedens and Finlands experience with russia during the last 1000 year is mostly about war. On the other hand, Swedish experience of China or Japan is more limited - the flow of information goes between the ones that have something to tell and the one´s that are interested in the information - in most cases, the information is shared between friends/allies and the messenger of course has a reason to inform the reciever of the information.

Sweden have a great interest in russia, militarily, political, social, environmental and economical - we of course also have in interest in China, it´s a great trading partner, but the scope is more limited here. I doubt that Australia knows as much about russia as Sweden, on the other hand, Australia knows a great deal more about Indonesia, China, Japan, India than Sweden.

Technological secrets are mostly shared on a higher teghnological detail level, due to commercial interests - that's why much of the high tech the US sells to it´s allies is in "black boxes". Sweden have that as a differentiator here, technology transfer is almost always a part of the deal when Saab sells fighter aircraft.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top