M1A1 Allegedly Penetrated In Iraq

[eaf-f16]

There is a "leaked" document pertaining to an M1A1 in Iraq being struck and penetrated by an unknown weapon. The report is dated 4th of October, 2008 (6 days ago). I have heard of a Challenger 2 getting hit with what was reportedly an RPG-29 round and being penetrated in Iraq before. But I think RPG-29's are rarely heard of in Iraq (not like S.Lebanon).

Please note that I don't know if this document is genuine or not. I'm posting it here in the hopes that some of our tank experts here at DT could read it and tell us how genuine they think the document is as well as what they think the weapon was.

Here is the document. (PDF file)

 

[simdude97]

Suggest you read the report. Page one (B) Date and Time 28 August 2003.

 

[eaf-f16]

Suggest you read the report. Page one (B) Date and Time 28 August 2003.

Uh, my mistake. :

I didn't read the report fully. I just saw the date at the top and read the description of the incident.

 

[citizen578]

I know there are a few tank crewmen/enthusiasts in here, so perhaps you can answer this question for me:

In Iraq, a Challenger 2 was hit by 70 RPGs and a mass of small arms fire, with no significant damage resulting. In a seperate incident, a Chally2 was hit by 8 RPGs, small arms fire, and a Milan fired from close range. Within six hours of the attack, the tank was back on the front line. According to some reports, the crew were sat inside having a cup of tea and waiting for recovery!

Are these unusual, lucky incidents, or a simple testament to the resilience of the tank's armour? Would other tanks also be able to withstand this punishment?

Thanks.

 

[Waylander]

In the end I can barely remember the report but wasn't 70 RPGs an overrated number?

Nevertheless these Challis took quite a beating but in the end every modern tank would take 3 digit numbers of old RPGs in it's frontal area without taking any countable damage.

And there is no difference between a MILAN fired from close range and one fired from longer range. The penetration will be the same and I would not bet on anything older than a MILAN 2 (Or whatever they call their new missile) to penetrate the frontal armor of any modern MBT.

For example while many people downrated the Merk Mrk.IV because of the losses during the Lebanon war there are a lot of reports inidcating that the Mrk.IV took alot of ATGM fire in its frontal and side area without taking any serious damage to the crew or systems.

Taking a huge number of old RPGs is not a miracle nor is it any bette than what any other modern tank would take.

 

[citizen578]

That is as i suspected, thank you Waylander. I should have clarified that the RPG's are supposed to have been fired from short-range (if that makes any significant kinetic difference).

A google search suggests that 70+ was the number of hits, although most results are from forums and community-edited sites.

However the BBC did have a quote from the editor of Defence Analysis:
''...compare that with one British Challenger near Basra which survived being hit by 70 RPGs''

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2905817.stm

 

[Waylander]

With a shaoed charge warhead there is no difference if the target is hit at long or short range.

A HEAT warhead is not using it's speed for penetration but it's special tech.
It is unimportant from how far away you hit a target with your RPG or whatever HEAT wahread one uses.
Speed only helps when it comes to long range shots. More speed normally means more accuracy.

As for the article.
Maybe I'm wrong and the Challis has been hit by 70+ RPGs (Which sounds rather high for one engagement).
Nevertheless my point stands that it is unimportant by how many old RPGs a modern MBT is hit in the frontal area.

 

[tatra]

Vulnerability depends on the angle from which the attack it coming. Most MBTs are optimized to withstand the heaviest hits over the frontal arc only. Vulnerable areas are side and rear and top of hull and turret.

 

[eckherl]

That is as i suspected, thank you Waylander. I should have clarified that the RPG's are supposed to have been fired from short-range (if that makes any significant kinetic difference).

A google search suggests that 70+ was the number of hits, although most results are from forums and community-edited sites.

However the BBC did have a quote from the editor of Defence Analysis:
''...compare that with one British Challenger near Basra which survived being hit by 70 RPGs''

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2905817.stm

As Waylander stated range doesn`t make a difference for shaped charged warhead performance, let me also add that a RPG 7 projectile is designed with a self destruct between 900 and 1100 meters thus some of the reason why you have to engage a target close during open terrian egagements.

 

[Waylander]

Not that there is any reasonable chance to hit even static targets at these ranges with a RPG-7.

IIRC the new PzFst3 with digital target aquisition support only gives you a realistic chance up to 600m.

Our mech inf missed alot of targets further away than 300m with the older PzFst3 during live fire exercises.

 

[kato]

300m is the official range of the PzF3 against moving targets. Wouldn't trust it to hit anything smaller than a house beyond that, and that's only with minimal winds.

 

[eckherl]

Not that there is any reasonable chance to hit even static targets at these ranges with a RPG-7.

IIRC the new PzFst3 with digital target aquisition support only gives you a realistic chance up to 600m.

Our mech inf missed alot of targets further away than 300m with the older PzFst3 during live fire exercises.

Agreed, I would think one may be even hard pressed to hit anything beyond 300 meters with a RPG 7.

 

[Marc 1]

Agreed, I would think one may be even hard pressed to hit anything beyond 300 meters with a RPG 7.

Seem videos of taliban fighters plinking soviet tankswith RPG's in the 80's in the mountain passes of Afghanistan. The range would have been well over 1000m.

 

[eckherl]

Seem videos of taliban fighters plinking soviet tankswith RPG's in the 80's in the mountain passes of Afghanistan. The range would have been well over 1000m.

Not saying that it cannot be done, but for the average soldier let alone insurgent this range would be quite challenging.

 

[winnyfield]

Other recorded incidents:

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/US-Field-Manuals/abrams-oif.pdf

 

[Waylander]

Seem videos of taliban fighters plinking soviet tankswith RPG's in the 80's in the mountain passes of Afghanistan. The range would have been well over 1000m.

I once have seen a video of the Mujaheddin hitting Sovjet vehicles with MILAN shots. This is fully possible at ranges well over 1000m.
But I have to say I am very in doubt with the Mujaheddin being able to hit enemy vehicles of well over 100m with RPGs.
Maybe with a barrage of a lot of RPG-tams at a convoy but aimed shots?
I really doubt it.

 

[Marc 1]

I once have seen a video of the Mujaheddin hitting Sovjet vehicles with MILAN shots. This is fully possible at ranges well over 1000m.
But I have to say I am very in doubt with the Mujaheddin being able to hit enemy vehicles of well over 100m with RPGs.
Maybe with a barrage of a lot of RPG-tams at a convoy but aimed shots?
I really doubt it.

I cannot remember where I saw the video - probably at the School of Infantry 20 years ago. I can identify both a Milan firing post and the ubiqitous RPG, and I know that these tanks were being engaged from the surrounding mountain tops from ranges in excess of 1000m by RPG's. I think the reason we were shown the video in the first place was to illustrate that whilst we worked to certain planning ranges with enemy weapons they could be lethal at ranges well beyond that.

 

[eckherl]

I once have seen a video of the Mujaheddin hitting Sovjet vehicles with MILAN shots. This is fully possible at ranges well over 1000m.
But I have to say I am very in doubt with the Mujaheddin being able to hit enemy vehicles of well over 100m with RPGs.
Maybe with a barrage of a lot of RPG-tams at a convoy but aimed shots?
I really doubt it.

I think that you are selling this system off way too short, I have fired a few of these and realistically you can get good target results at around 300 meters, a M72 series on the other hand is a task to hit a barn door at 100 meters.

 

[Waylander]

A typo.
Should have been 1000m and not 100m.

And I don't doubt that one might want to fire a RPG at this extreme range but one cannot talk of this being an aimed shot. More a shot in the general direction of the enemy forces.
Nevertheless a RPG canc ause quite a mess if one gets a lucky shot at these ranges.

 

[eckherl]

A typo.
Should have been 1000m and not 100m.

And I don't doubt that one might want to fire a RPG at this extreme range but one cannot talk of this being an aimed shot. More a shot in the general direction of the enemy forces.
Nevertheless a RPG canc ause quite a mess if one gets a lucky shot at these ranges.

Hey Waylander,

On a different note, it looks like the U.S Marines will be testing DM 11 projectiles for their M1A1s, kinda tells you how they feel about the U.S Army approach.