NZDF General discussion thread

greenie

New Member
Who knows what NZ industry could offer, the important thing is the chance and opportunity to bid because without that we would never know what could happen.
It was only a few years ago that the CT4E airtrainer was short selected for the USAF basic trainer ,and was reportably better than the others but due to our wonderful political stance it was sidelined out of selection.
We as a small country make some truly inovative stuff.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
It was only a few years ago that the CT4E airtrainer was short selected for the USAF basic trainer ,and was reportably better than the others but due to our wonderful political stance it was sidelined out of selection.
We as a small country make some truly inovative stuff.
I would imagine that international politics is only part of it, and possibly a small part these days, one must factor into account US domestic views and lobby groups, the buy US made (in my congressional/senatorial district) movement is most strong.
 

greenie

New Member
I would imagine that international politics is only part of it, and possibly a small part these days, one must factor into account US domestic views and lobby groups, the buy US made (in my congressional/senatorial district) movement is most strong.
I know your right, the Buy US movement is very strong withn congress esp with the military, only have to look at the KC135 replacement to see that.
As for the CT4 , PAC could never have met the delivary timetable and so I understand it was going to be contracted out withen the US.
Just an example of kiwi defence industry.:)
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Merged "What could New Zealand do to become a regional power?" AND "NZDF under change of Govt" threads.
-Preceptor
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Okay, it has been a little while since I have been very active in the NZ threads. In the interim I have noted a number of ideas and thoughts being bandied about, particularly due to the upcoming election and the possibility of National and/or a National-led coalition replacing Labour. In response to some of the ideas others have presented as well as the current state of the NZDF I have a few ideas on ways to improve the NZ defence positioning.

The first area I see a place for improvement, before getting into any increases in kit, personnel or even %GDP has to do with budget reporting. It is something that at various intervals I have mentioned to other members, and perhaps it is just a pet peeve of mine, or an idiosyncracy of NZ fiscal reporting, I am not sure. When looking here at the NZDF budget and projections there is an item in the expense column listed as a Capital Charge, which totals ~1/6th of the total NZDF budget. As I understand the function of the Capital Charge, it essentially is a charge the NZDF has to pay to the NZ government for use of government-owned equipment and resources, as though the NZDF was renting or leasing the ships, equipment, bases, etc. Each year, the NZ government allots funding to the NZDF to cover that charge by paying the monies back to the NZ government. It seems sensible from my perspective to eliminate that Capital Charge, as the only real reason I see behind including that charge in the defence budget it to obfuscate the level of real spending and make it appear that the NZDF is receiving better funding than it actually is. For an example of this, look at the NZDF budget for the 2006 Fiscal Year. The NZDF had a budget that year of ~NZ$1.733 billion, including the Capital Charge of ~NZ$346 million and a listed % GDP spending of ~1.1%. However, if one was to eliminate the Capital Charge, and with it the funds the NZ government allocates to the NZDF budget to pay it, one reaches a real NZDF budget of ~NZ$1.387 billion, or ~0.88% GDP. Making the actual working budget figures more apparent might make the average Kiwi find increasing the NZDF budget more palatable.

With that done, then I would suggest raising the real level of funding for the NZDF to the currently 'listed' ~1.1% GDP/~NZ$1.8 billion, if not higher to historical levels of ~2.0% GDP+. An increase in real spending on the order of ~NZ$350 million (the approximate amount of the current Capital Charge) would be sufficient to fund a number of areas within the NZ defence community.

Having done that, I would then suggest moving onto examing the NZ government and populations' expectations of the NZDF in terms of missions and roles. Refering back to the link provided by Recce on different parties defence policies a number of different political parties either directly refer or allude to NZ having 'the best small integrated defence force in the world'. By the criteria I use to define an integrated defence force, I would not consider NZ to be in the running, as the NZDF in no ways seems capable of conducting combined arms exercises or training, nevermind combat ops.

Another sub-section to examine is the intent by some in NZ to focus on creating a highly efficient 'land force' supported by the RNZN and RNZAF and consider the relevancy of such a focus to defending NZ. IMO such a focus is very much like a reverse-Defence of Australia attitude, where during the 80's (AFAIK) the RAN and RAAF received most of the ADF's attention and the Australian Army was somewhat ignored. This was a result of the attitude that it would be better to stop and oncoming enemy before they arrive in Australia proper, as opposed to waiting until they have arrived to engage. The NZ attitude seems to be the opposite.

IMV the primary focus of the NZDF should be on defending and controlling NZ territories and assets, then assisting in the defence of allies, and only then assisting the international community in peacekeeping and stabilization.

Given that NZ is a nation made up of islands, protecting the SLOC would be an area of prime concern. Areas worth improving in this area would be increasing the total number of warships in the RNZN (i.e. becoming a 3 frigate navy again...) so that in case of an emergency, a frigate is always available. As a practical matter, acquisition of a third frigate would probably have to wait a decade or so, with the beginning of the Anzac replacement program. Something of shorter term would be to engage in upgrades to the Anzac offensive, defensive, sensor and comm systems. This would potentially expand the area of influence for the frigates the RNZN has currently

Another area that has been mentioned would be development of a dedicated MCM capability as opposed to the current ad hoc MCM capacity. With the ability to deny sea lanes with the mere threat of sea mines scattered in critical locations and choke points, and NZ's reliance on overseas trade, having the ability to manage that threat could become crucial.

Air Defence is also an area of significant weakness as far as NZ is concerned. AFAIK the air defence systems the NZDF has currently consist of the RIM-7 Sea Sparrow (range ~6 n miles) and Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS (range ~1 n mile?) aboard the two Anzac frigates and ~12 Mistral manpack SAM launchers. The NZDF lacks even a basic capability to intercept or escort and inbound or outbound aircraft.

With the changing and increasingly unstable world, the demise of the ACF IMV was a mistake, particularly given the potential for conflict over resources within NZ's EEZ (10th largest in world?). Now I am not advocating resurrecting the ACF at present, but I do think examining what would be required to do so and the various scenarios where employment of an ACF would be an appropriate or best response would be in order. From prior reading and discussion (assuming my brain has not totally shut off and shorted out) once an ACF of ~24 aircraft/two squadrons was established with personnel, equipment etc. it would have an annual operating expense of ~NZ$200 million and would take approximately 5 years of operations and training to regain the level of proficiency the RNZAF ACF had prior to being disbanded. If in the near or mid-term a decision was made to reconstitute the ACF then a few options come to mind. One would be to activate the MB-339 as an initial training and interim ACF (this would also allow OpFor & FAC training with other elements of the NZDF) and then deep maintenance of the A-4K Skyhawks to return them to a serviceable condition. Another avenue potentially available would be a purchase of new or surplus aircraft. The one that immediately springs to mind would be purchasing F/A-18F SH. The ADF recently did that, with an expected cost of A$6 billion for the aircraft, training and support, a weapons package and ten years of operations. Such a purchase would give NZ a very capable multi-role aircraft that would integrate easily with allied forces and be able to make use of common support facilities with the US and Australia. A slightly different idea but in the same vein would be to purchase the RAAF Superbugs after ten years of service assuming that the RAAF did engage in wholesale replacement with the F-35 JSF and the RNZAF was to be reconstituted but not immediately.

The last area I will cover right now (getting :sleepy) would be increasing NZ's C4ISR assets. At present, as mentioned in other threads, the primary assets monitoring the approaches to NZ are the 6 P-3K Orions. Given estimates I have made of the volume area that they can monitor, it would take ~8 airborne in appropriate flightpaths to simultaneously monitor the EEZ around NZ. Since NZ only has 6, and frequently has one or more deployed monitoring the EEZ of some of the South Pacific island chains, it is not possible for the NZDF to provide that level of coverage. Even if both frigates and all the Protector vessels were in service, there would be gaps in radar coverage of the EEZ and possibly NZ home waters. Therefore a buildup of C4ISR assets would seem to make sense. This is one of only two areas within the NZDF that I recommend a buildup in, all other areas are essentially rebuilding a formerly existing capability.

The first suggestion I have regarding expanding the NZDF ISR would be the addition to the RNZAF of supplementary surveillance aircraft, configured similarly to the Australian Coastwatch aircraft here. These Q300s and helicopters and configured for sea search and can conduct supplementary patrols in where a P-3K is not available due to being tasked elsewhere or undergoing maintenance. Another option that could be done in place of or preferably in addition to additional patrol aircraft would be deployment of shore-based maritime search radars. This could be similar to the system installed by Raytheon Canada in the Dutch Antilles using Terma Scanter 2001, or perhaps SECAR from Daronmont Technologies in Australia. A JORN-type OTHR might also be available, though I am uncertain whether having another such array built in Australia (IIRC there are three already) but directed to monitor around NZ and then forwarding pertinent data to NZ or having the array built in NZ proper would be best. Australia might have issues with data on radar resolution being leaked, as well as environmental issues with the array, namely what effect tremours would have on the emitter(s) and receivers.

More to follow in the soon, need to sleep.

-Cheers
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Talking about Capital Charge and that www.policy.net.nz website, check out the links called "Follow the Money".

Follow the Money: Defence

These budget figures are for the NZDF, MoD presumably, SIS and GCSB (Government Communications Security Bureau). Apart from being suprised the "Air Combat Forces" category is still listed (albiet at $0.0M over the last few years!), the "actual" vote figures from 2002/03 ($2.1B) to 2007/08 ($2.5B) is listed and broken down (and the 2008/09 "budget" figures are given as $2.9B). Not sure why Capital Expenditure doesn't appear before 2007/08??? I cannot see "Capital Charge" listed over the years either. Anyone wish to comment???

For comparisons with other Govt spending see http://www.policy.net.nz/ftn.shtml
Interesting that Defence makes up 4.0% of the Govt budget for 2008. Social Welfare takes a whoppppppppping 35.7% of the 2008 budget (the largest slice of Govt expenditure) and has increased from $14B in 2002/03 to $24B in 2007/08 - that's nearly a 100% increase (which unfortunately for the Govt, this disproves their crap about not being able to afford an A-4K/MB-339 air combat force @ $80M/year to operate. Hell for a couple of billion, we could buy a squadron of about 20 brand new F-18 Super Hornets!!! And that's not an up front up cost - NZ would take out say a 15 year loan @ $100M/year + interest). This surely cannot be sustainable for a country like NZ longterm (despite one's anti or pro SW views). Although the category "Social Welfare" is also an all encompassing category, if you look at the figures it's just not the dole but lots of other areas where taxpayer money is being handed back to certain targeted groups (no doubt includes all the previous election bribes). Health (16.8% of the budget & up from $8.6B in 2002 to $11B in 2007) and Education (14.7% - up from $7.7B in 2002 to $10B in 2007) figures are also listed. Whether all the data is 100% accurate I don't know except to say well done that website for taking the time to sift through various Govt and Treasury sources to deliver the figures to the public. Would love to see some comparisons with Australia - can anyone point to these figures?

What's this got to do with defence really? Well just gives us the public more knowledge of what it costs to run the Govt and if ones pet area is defence (or education or transport etc) then here's the figures to allow us to make informed judgements on what we believe to be affordable or not!
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Rant, cont'd

Okay, having gotten some sleep I now have the urge to continue.

An area I had previously touched on as important was maintenance of the SLOC. As an archipelagic nation that is dependent on trade, disruption of the SLOC would have an adverse impact on daily life in NZ. An extreme disruption could potentially effect trade and travel within NZ itself.

One potent weapon that can be used to disrupt the SLOC is submarines and the numbers of nations with subs in service is climbing, particularly in areas where NZ either engages in trade, or has to transit to reach a trading partner. Granted, no current South Pacific nation looks to be purchasing a sub any time soon, however, those same nations are not in a position to supplant Australia, the US, Europe, etc in terms of levels of trade with NZ. Therefore I think it would behoove NZ to look at the ASW capabilities.

At present that capability seems to be in significant decline. Granted, in they heyday of the Cold War in the early 80's it was expected that the RNZN would engage in ASW ops to escort USN carrier groups. Therefore the main focus of effort would have been ASW. At present, it seems that people (unsure if it is within gov't, NZDF, or general populace or some combination) do not consider ASW as something that is needed. AFAIK the unarmed HMNZS Resolution is the only vessel in the fleet carrying a towed sonar array and uses that for oceanographic surveying. The frigates Te Mana and Te Kaha have to rely on hull-mounted sonars which are less effective. The SH-2G(NZ) Seasprites, when they are deployed, can also engage in ASW using sonobuoys and air-dropped torpedoes. Lastly the RNZAF P-3K Orions also had ASW capabilities, however I do not believe this were upgraded in the Kahu update, though I am uncertain whether the capability was dropped or not. In essence, the NZDF does not have any platform the is particularly good at detecting potentially hostile submarines.

Exacerbating this is the state of the lightweight ASW torpedoes that NZ does have. IIRC they were expected to reach their expiration date at some point this year, afterwhich they might, or might not function when needed. According to the LTDP 2006, replacement for those expired torpedoes is considered a low priority and IIRC was tentatively planned to occur by 2015. At which point then the NZDF would be able, again, to engage a submarine contact if one was detected.

As I have suggested before, this is something that perhaps the public should be made aware of.

-Cheers
 

greenie

New Member
The ANZACs used to have towed array but it was removed,Why??????
I think it was to save weight!
I feel that sub threat is the most likely disruption to our trade and ports,and with 98% of our trade comming by sea watch how fast we would grind to a halt.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
The capital charge was introduced back in 1991 iirc as a way to get a indication of how efficient a particular department was in using tax payer funds. In the private sector it is the return on shareholders funds. The charge is applied to every department, and is paid by the government so it is a paper entry only. In the example above the capital charge for the Defence department was $NZ340M, the department was expected to have provided $340M worth of services in return for the resources it consumed. By breaking down those services eg 1500 hours of fisheries patrol, 150 hours of search and rescue, 400 hours of transport for emergency relief, 12000 manhours of peacekeeping for the UN etc may fall short so the department makes up by disposing of some surplus assetts, generally land, to meet the shortfall in the expected return. Private industry generally rids itself of any assett that is not performing or is not required. Government departments horde, often sitting on assetts that it no longer needs, with the charge the department has to decide to use the assetts and get a return, keep if it may be required and fund the cost, or dispose of.

A couple of years ago the Defence department was finally able to depreciate its assetts, like the private sector, this is expected to provide at least $250M a year in additional capital funding, building up as the additional capital assetts come on stream, eg project protector, land vehicles, etc.
 

EnigmaNZ

New Member
The Kahu upgrade was the upgrade of the Skyhawks back in the '80s to turn them into subsonic F-16s. The full upgrade of the Orions was called Sirius, but was altered by the incoming Labour government to exclude anti sub sensors as the cost was about &NZ750M, the changes cut the cost to a more politically correct $350M.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Good Post i also look at the army as where we can really get something done the cost of fully combat ready Frigates must be getting around 1 billion dollers and it is starting to become a problem for a country of our size the army is something we can really get our teeth into.

We have always produced good soldiers as history has shown and we should look to create an army that may be small but is elite.

We should look to attain the highest standards possiable and like a broken record i will repeat my belief that we need a Ranger school that our soldiers can go through bettering themselves then going back to there battalions and maintaining those standards lifting the standards of the battalions as a whole and at the same time giving us more soldiers that are special operations qualified which is so important these days and we should also look at putting a big effort into developing snipers which are going to become increasingly important in this modern age of warfare against insurgents.
Please can you explain to this current infantryman why we need a Ranger school and the assumption that NZ Infantry need to lift our standards, NZ Infantry like there Aussie cousins are very well trained. having exercised with Rangers/UK/RAR/Canadian and SAS pers around the world there is not much they have to teach us. The hard fought for lessons in Iraq & Afgan are pased directly to us same with there TTP/SOP for urban fighting etc not to mention a few other things that happen out of sight of joe public, you seem to be under the belief that we dont train or exercise with our own SAS or the fact that those soldiers do return to there parent units for a rest or break and bring the corporate knowledge with them. The beauty with our Army is that knowledge is shared from tier 1 - tier 3 soldiers. What we need & Army has already Identified is that we do require a Commando capability to take over some of the taskings that the NZSAS are doing now first example is the black role currently being handed over to CTAG I do take offence to people who look over the fence & think that the grass is greener. NZ Infantry stand on the shoulders of giants we at the end of the day have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. ONWARD - KURA TAKAHI PUNI
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I don't think Steve33 meant any ill, my reading of his and others "Rangers" comments in the past was along the lines of the need for what is described in very general terms in the LTDP as a ""High Readiness Infantry Company"". Enthusiasm then takes over and various justifications (be that correct or incorrect) get thrown into the postings etc.

Anyway most of us recognise that the Army have well trained soldiers respected by their peers, especially after 50 years of being a professional regular force, after all, where do the NZSAS intakes come from? The RF of course ;)
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Just wishing to tack back to defence policy and in the wider context seeing we have an election coming up (and following on from Todjaegers posts to provoke some thinking), a web search brought up this article from 31 July 2003 by the former Secretary of Defence Gerald Hensley and various other former defence chiefs. Their viewpoints are still relevent imo. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3515364
A well as verything else that was written, note the last paragraph in the above link. I wish we could have some defence equivalent to the "Police Association" as the top brass & servicemen/women are forbidden to put their views out into the public and debate is therefore one sided in favour of the govt of the day and/or other politicians. No wonder the public are uninformed. The media, despite their sometimes sensationalism, are really the only other means to keep the pollies honest at times.

This astonishes the defence players' more feisty brethren across the Tasman. Australian efforts to get a Kiwi version of that country's powerful defence association started here foundered when its proponents ran up against that most unmilitary characteristic: fear.
I hadn't actually read their green paper "Choice or Chance? New Zealanders thinking about Defence Policy." but managed to track it down on the web. It's very interesting and worth posting here in its entirety, except it is too long.
EDIT: For continuity, here's the report in sequence up "Can we make a difference?".
Note: the full article is at the link http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0207/S00033.htm
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Choice Or Chance? - NZers Thinking About Defence
Wednesday, 3 July 2002, 11:59 am
Press Release:

CHOICE OR CHANCE?
New Zealanders Thinking About Defence Policy
Published in June 2002 by
M E A Dillon
1/30 The Crescent
Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
in association with the authors
and with special acknowledgement to the assistance
provided by
The Save Our Squadrons Campaign
The Maxim Institute
The Wellington Brevet Club
And friends and ex-colleagues
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
ISBN 0-473-08732-4
CONTENTS
FOREWORD
INTRODUCTION 1
DO WE NEED A DEFENCE FORCE? 3
:::::::::Couldn't We Be Neutral?
:::::::::Can't It Be Left To Our Friends?
:::::::::Can We Make A Difference?
:::::::::A Choice Has To Be Made
:::::::::predictions Are Fallible
WHAT KIND OF DEFENCE DO WE NEED? 9
:::::::::Close To Home
:::::::::peacekeeping
:::::::::Should A Small Country Specialise?
:::::::::A Balanced Approach
:::::::::The Army
:::::::::The Navy
:::::::::The Air Force
:::::::::Summary
HOW CAN WE AFFORD THIS? 19
CONCLUSION 21

FOREWORD

In the modern world any country's defence is a mix of three tasks: to defend the homeland, to work with others to protect its wider interests, and to help maintain peace and the rule of law in the international community.

New Zealand has quietly dropped the second of these tasks without debating the effects. We have allowed our Defence Force to run down to the point where we can no longer contribute reliably to collective security.

We need to ask ourselves why. The answer will decide what sort of security we will have for the future, and what sort of relationship we will have with friends like Australia and the United States.

The first question is, Who is out of step? Every other country in the Asia-Pacific region believes that the risk of serious trouble sometime in the future cannot be ruled out. They know that trouble can now arise faster than the capability to deal with it, and that it is too late to wait until the danger becomes clear. They have accepted the necessity, year on year, to maintain forces trained and equipped to deal with such trouble.

We are marching firmly in the opposite direction. We have halved our defence spending, now projected to fall well below 1% of our national income. A worthwhile combat capability cannot be sustained on this. We have decided instead to concentrate on domestic tasks and peacekeeping.

These views cannot both be right. Either our friends are wrong, or we are.

The second question is, Can we stay out of harm's way? If the others turn out to be right about the future, can we not, as a small country in the depths of the Pacific, sit on the sidelines? Our present stance relies on this hope. In its Policy Statement two years ago the government says simply that "New Zealand is not likely to be involved in widespread armed conflict". It gives no reasons to back this optimism. We need to think about it carefully. If it turned out to be wrong we would find ourselves yet again fielding forces that were not properly trained or equipped.

The most basic question of all is, How do we see the future? All arguments on defence turn on this. If we are confident that there is no risk of trouble over the next two decades, or that it could not affect New Zealand, then we can settle for a defence force mainly equipped for iii non-combat duties and international policing. If we think the future is uncertain and that we cannot afford to gamble, then we will prefer a defence force that can work with our friends to uphold the collective security of all of us.

We have to make a conscious choice. We cannot drift along hoping that our insurance policy is valid even though we have stopped paying the premiums.

There is a last question, Can we afford it? We are told that the cost is too high, that modern defence equipment is beyond our means. Better (we have said beneath our breath) to leave it to other countries' taxpayers. But huge sums are not required for a credible defence preparedness and the friendships it helps to sustain. Provided we do it consistently, the equivalent of an extra five days of welfare spending each year would be enough.

Whatever we decide, we need a frank debate on whether we are headed in the right direction. Green papers are normally consultation documents put out by governments before deciding on policy. Our government has so far carried out no consultations and issued no White Paper. This ‘green paper’ is an informal attempt to set out some of the main issues as a contribution to a fuller discussion.

We will be attacked for being ‘political’, as if such subjects are for politicians only. But defence, the country's future security, is a political issue of the highest importance. If the government will not talk about it, then private citizens have to try to fill the gap.

Since we raised these issues a year ago we have sadly lost a member of our group - Lieutenant-General Tony Birks. His clear mind and cheerfulness in the midst of illness were a source of great strength. Many of his thoughts have helped shape these pages.

We dedicate this green paper to his memory.

Richard Bolt Gerald Hensley Ewan Jamieson

Robin Klitscher Denis McLean Somerford Teagle

CHOICE OR CHANCE?
INTRODUCTION

After a decade of running down our defence capabilities, New Zealanders now need to pause and think about where we are heading and whether the path we are on is wise. The defence debate is not about detail, or even primarily about money. It should be about what, if any, risks we see to our future peace and prosperity and what is needed to reduce those risks to an acceptable level.

The decision concerns all of us because if we get it wrong the damage will affect all of us. Defence experts can best advise about types of equipment or the best training needed for specified tasks. Only we as ordinary New Zealanders can choose the risks we are willing to run on security.

If we are confident that there is no risk of conflict over the next two decades, or at least that any conflict will not affect New Zealand, then we can settle for a defence force which is equipped mainly for non-combat duties, such as (to quote from the Government's last election manifesto) "disaster relief, resource protection, suitable overseas aid delivery, such as engineering and health projects, and to United Nations peacekeeping or non-military peace support".

If we decide, on the other hand, that the world faces an uncertain future and that New Zealand will not be exempted from any consequences, then we will call for a different kind of defence force - one which can do all these things in peacetime, but which is also equipped and trained for combat. This means a defence force which can give credibility to our diplomacy and which can work with our friends to deter or resist trouble.

The two alternatives are very different, in equipment, cost and purpose.

As insurance policies for New Zealand each covers a quite different level of risk. Since we will live with the consequences of our choice we need to be clear and well-informed about what is involved in each. Too much is at stake in the future if we get it wrong.

This is a 'green paper', traditionally used by governments to set out issues for discussion. Our government has not done so on defence and so we have attempted to fill the gap. We believe that New Zealand needs an effective defence force, but we have tried to set out the reasons in a way that lets readers judge for themselves.

DO WE NEED A DEFENCE FORCE?

The Asia-Pacific region in which we live and trade is stable and has not seen major trouble for a generation. The Cold War and the proxy conflicts it supported have gone. Perhaps worries about our external security are as old-fashioned as fears of a slump. Perhaps we can conclude that our isolation and remoteness from the causes of trouble are the cheapest and best form of defence.

War has clearly not been abolished. The headlines tell us this every day.

The forms of war have changed, as they have periodically throughout history, but the human causes of war - greed, ambition and fear - have not gone. If aggressive people and states cannot get their way by other means they will still resort to force. Sophisticated weapons and the ability to use them are widely disseminated. Making trouble has never been cheaper. World wars, of the kind which took such a toll in the last century, are highly unlikely in the foreseeable future, if only because of the existence of nuclear weapons. In place of global struggles, terrorism, ethnic and nationalist wars and regional tensions have all flourished in recent times. Experience tells us that this will only change quickly if human nature does.

We are small and remote. "Who would want to invade us?" people ask.

With the passing of the global struggles there is little chance that anyone would want to invade us, and even less chance that they would be able to do so over such long distances.

But this is asking the wrong question. Though direct invasion is the least likely way our prosperity and wellbeing could be destroyed, it is not the only way. Because we are so remote and small we are heavily dependent on our links with the outside world. More than most other countries our comfortable way of life relies on external trade, and therefore on the peace and stability of the countries with whom we trade. There are a myriad other links - knowledge, medicine, investment, travel, technology transfers - which if interrupted would seriously damage New Zealand's quality of life. Though we are isolated - because we are isolated - we have as big a stake in the continuance of peace as anyone.

Working for peace is not a matter of good intentions or admirable statements. It requires work and the commitment of resources over a period of time. This means a defence force sufficient to give credibility to our diplomatic efforts and which can work with our friends to deter trouble or resist it if diplomacy fails. All our friends and neighbours in the Asia-Pacific region are following this policy. They can see that there are risks in the region which will have to be managed collectively, and all are maintaining or increasing their security preparedness - except New Zealand. Is everyone else out of step, or are we?

We know that we are out of step with Australia and that it is affecting the relationship across the board. Australia is our only remaining formal ally.

By its size and location on the edge of Asia it feels itself vulnerable, even to illegal immigration, in a way we at the bottom of the South Pacific do not. Defence matters to the Australian public and they are prepared to spend an increasing amount on it. And they see it at the top of the transTasman relationship where we might see freedom of travel.

The problem is that, despite our differing perceptions of risk, geography has locked us together. A glance at the map shows that neither country could be defended apart from the other, and according to the last poll on the subject 90% of New Zealanders agree. If there is a common security burden, however, Australians resent what they believe is our increasing unwillingness to pick up our fair share. They feel that if we do not spend our share on defence, their taxpayers have to pay more to make up the shortfall.

No-one denies the value of our peacekeeping efforts - in East Timor, Bougainville and the Solomons. But Australia is thinking about the top end of the risk, the chances of major trouble ten or fifteen years out. We cannot add up praise for a series of peacekeeping operations and hope this will be seen as the equivalent of maintaining a level of combat preparedness which can make a useful contribution to the common security. Australia has now concluded that if there is a major crisis over the next decade it will have to do without New Zealand's support.

Couldn't We Be Neutral?

If serious trouble breaks out, many feel, we would be wiser to stand aside and use our isolation to keep out of harm's way. This is enticing but it is a daydream. The Government's statement on defence policy issued in June 2000 simply says that "New Zealand is unlikely to be involved in any wider conflict". It does not explain why it is so confident of this. Such a view suggests that we are buying Lotto tickets for the future rather than making a realistic appraisal of the security risks.

It is a dream because in fact we could not stand aside. Our history, our outlook, our economic and other interests are all against it. We would have been shocked at any suggestion that we stand aside over East Timor, even though that could have led to combat with Indonesia. We would be shocked by any suggestion that we would not be with Australia if that country was threatened. That in itself banishes any fantasy that we can shut ourselves away as a single country with neither obligations nor interests binding us to others.

Our remoteness has never protected us in the past. It can do so even less in a world where trade, transport and communications are global.

Our immunity from invasion does not extend to any of these.

Three-quarters of our trade is done in the Asia-Pacific region and the proportion is increasing. This is drawing us steadily closer to the East Asian economies; our future prosperity will more and more depend on it.

We are happy to see these growing economic ties but it is an illusion to think that a closer relationship can be confined to trade. Closer links mean that we will become more closely involved in other ways, in investment, immigration and education for example, and also in shared security concerns. This is clear enough already in what might be called constabulary concerns - drugs, money-laundering, refugees and piracy. It means also that any future crises, over the future of Taiwan, say, or the South China Sea, would also demand a New Zealand response. Fifty years ago we chose as members of the United Nations to oppose aggression in Korea. Now the gradual tightening of our links with the region is in effect foreclosing our freedom to choose. We cannot be in the region for some purposes and out of it for others.

Can't It Be Left To Our Friends?

It could, because our friends and neighbours all share the same interest in maintaining peace that we do. It is an attractive thought. We could avoid the dangerous and costly business of combat preparedness and instead devote ourselves to the much easier and cheaper task of urging diplomatic solutions. After all, New Zealand is unlikely to be singled out.

If trouble comes it will affect many other countries in the region. In dealing with it those countries will serve our interests as well as their own.

There is a price of course. This is hardly the way to keep our self-respect or win the respect of others. We have hitherto taken a pride in pulling our weight and in giving more than generous return for the freedoms and benefits we inherited. There is no pride in leaving it to others.

If we drop out of the common security effort we must expect to pay in other ways. Nothing is free, and especially not retreat from cooperation in maintaining security Our national interests inevitably take a back seat to those of others. No-one is going to make financial sacrifices or put their young people in harm's way for a country that cannot be bothered to provide for its own security. We are losing influence on things that matter to us. If we are seen as selfish on defence we cannot ask for goodwill on other issues of importance to us. The effects can already be seen, in Australian pressure on the traditional transtasman travel arrangements and in American reluctance over negotiating a free trade agreement with us. There will be more examples to come.

Can We Make A Difference?

Some argue that as a small South Pacific country we should avoid spending on sophisticated military technologies. They are too expensive for us and any capabilities we could pay for would be insignificant compared to the vast firepower available to the United States and the rest of the region. We should concentrate on peacemaking, leaving the cost of combat to others.

No-one else in the region thinks that a prosperous little country with a proud military history (per capita the 21st richest in the world) cannot make a difference. Of course we have to work in a collective security framework with our friends. But that is true of everyone, and if everyone dropped out there would be no collective security for anyone.

Properly-equipped and trained New Zealand's defence forces did make a difference in the past - ask the Singaporeans or Malaysians. There is no reason why we cannot continue to do so.

The point is not only who is prepared to stand up when there is a crisis. In peace as in war defence is part of a country's relationship with its neighbours. If we opt out of maintaining an effective force, we opt out of helping to maintain the peace as well. It is an illusion to think that peace is the natural state of mankind, that left to ourselves we would all live happily together. "War is as old as mankind, but peace is a modern invention", was said more than a century ago, before all the wars that racked the last century. Peace is at least as complicated as war; it has to be worked at no less earnestly. This cannot be done with hopeful words.

It requires also a real and visible commitment to dealing with trouble.

The cost of military technology like all technologies keeps increasing, but on the other hand manpower can be reduced. To say despairingly that we can no longer keep up is no truer of defence than it is of computer technology or any other investment. A modern frigate like Te Kaha costs the taxpayer in real terms only a little more than Canterbury did in 1971.

We were offered two squadrons of top-of-the-line F16 aircraft for an annual rental that was not much more than the cost of keeping the Skyhawks going. There is no evidence to suggest that the cost of maintaining an adequate defence force need ever exceed the 1.8% of GDP which is what we felt able to afford on average over the past five decades.
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Thanks Recce for the article and links. The articles, particularly the 2nd one, raised a number of points that I have brought up from time to time, but did so far more eloquently. The fact that the article was six years old tells us that others have had similar thoughts over the years.

One thought which came to mind was perhaps members of DT could start writing a Green paper to submit to the NZ government and/or political parties, or perhaps publications. Something to perhaps start discussion within NZ about defence matters. As the articles mentioned, it appears as though the NZ government has the opposite view of future security concerns from the rest of the Asia-Pacific community, but no explanation or reasoning as to why.

EnigmaNZ, thanks for the origin behind the Capital Charge and timeline. As for the Kahu upgrade, I was :sleepy at the time and mixed up the upgrade name & aircraft. Still cannot recall what the P-3K Orion upgrade (the one after Sirius was cancelled) was called. IIRC a number of the mission systems were adapted from COTS systems, as well as replacement of some parts of the wiring loom and re-winging. However, the wiring to the wing hardpoints was not upgraded or replaced, therefore the P-3K is not able to fire the SLAM/SLAM-ER/Harpoon Block II AFAIK.

Personally, I still would advocate eliminating the Capital Charge from the defence budget, despite being intended as an indication of department efficiency in using taxpayer funds. The concerns I have with it are that it masks the level of real funding. For example, when looking here at the NZDF budget entry for 2007 in the database at www.sipri.org is lists an amount of NZ$1.893 billion allocated. However, when matching this to the budgetary info here provided by the NZDF, it lists the ~same total of NZ$1.892 billion, of which NZ$356 million is the Capital Charge and therefore is not actual funding the NZDF received, an amount of NZ$1.536 billion being more accurate. Also at issue is how the amount of the Capital Charge is determined both in terms of NZ$ per hour/mission as well as how those numbers are determined. Particularly since if there insufficient funding for personnel, maintenance and training, then the NZDF can run into a problem meeting the various mission requirements as indicated in this article. Also it seems that the Capital Charge can force the NZDF into a recursive loop where due to personnel and equipment difficulties, missions are not done or scaled back, and therefore the taxpayer dollar is not use to conduct missions to "cover" the Capital Charge. This in turn forces the NZDF into a deficit whereby it sells defence assets which at some point could further reduce the NZDF ability to meet the missions required for the Capital Charge (i.e. a hypothetical statement from the Chief of Navy "I am sorry Prime Minister, the Navy cannot conduct 400 days of frigate patrolling next year, as we only have one frigate now, we had to sell the other one to cover our budgetary deficit last year...") Selling off of defence assets can also restrict future growth and operations of the NZDF if at a later date it determines a use for assets it once held.

IMV there are other, better ways to analyse NZDF operations and determine areas of waste. I also think this a poor time to cut back on the number of bases the NZDF has, because of the significant cutbacks the NZDF has had. Since it is in effect a basic framework at present, if decisions were made to "bulk it up" if too many facilities were sold, then either expansion would be artificially high to re-purchase or re-build facilities, or certain expansions might simply be foregone.

All the same, it does give food for thought.

-Cheers
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
One thought which came to mind was perhaps members of DT could start writing a Green paper to submit to the NZ government and/or political parties, or perhaps publications. Something to perhaps start discussion within NZ about defence matters. As the articles mentioned, it appears as though the NZ government has the opposite view of future security concerns from the rest of the Asia-Pacific community, but no explanation or reasoning as to why.
Hmm, not a bad idea! With both National & Labour(?) talking about a Defence white paper post the 2008 election, it could be a worthwhile exercise. No doubt the other professional groups will submit something worthwhile etc.

It would be good for us to know which other professional groups said what and when, apart from the previous post on that 2002/2003 grouping, the only other group I know of is the RNZ Returned & Services Association back in May 2005.

From http://www.rsa.org.nz/about/nws2005may/defence_statement.html
The Royal New Zealand Returned and Services Association's National Council AGM in July 2003 resolved that the organisation should make a public statement on defence policy in New Zealand.

This is that statement. It has been developed consultatively with RSAs the length and breadth of the country. It sets out a range of considerations to provide an informed framework against which defence policies might be judged in public.
Their 1MB PDF document can be found at:
http://www.rsa.org.nz/about/nws2005may/RSA-Defending-New-Zealand.pdf

Very interesting reading. I hope they resubmit something again to the upcoming White Paper (and if I recall correctly, the RSA claimed their 2005 document was pretty conservative in terms of capabilities, at the time they didn't want to rock the boat too much, lets hope they put any politically correctness behind them this time)!

Can anyone else point to any other defence policy documents, be that they be 'balanced force' types or 'peacekeeping oriented' types etc? The more thoughts, evening diverging thoughts, are worthwhile analysing etc.

Co-incidentally - on a related theme, the following article appeared in the news last Thursday.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4713903a11.html

Defence rethink urged
Thursday, 02 October 2008


New Zealand needs a major defence rethink to identify medium to long-term threats and move away from planning based on World War 1 strategies, says a defence commentator.

Victoria University's Centre for Strategic Studies senior fellow Dr Lance Beath said New Zealand also needed to move away from a defence strategy based on the army with the navy and air force in support roles, and move towards more warships for the navy and a return to a combat air force.

Dr Beath, who has worked for the Ministry of Defence managing strategic and international policy, said New Zealand must look outside the Pacific Basin at other high-risk areas, including the Middle East.

"We tend to think of the Pacific as being a very benign and safe and low-level place and we don't make much provision for our future defence."

Dr Beath told a defence conference on security in the Pacific in Wellington last week New Zealand needed to be better prepared across all levels of the military spectrum and and spend more than the 1 percent of the gross domestic product it currently does on defence.

That meant all three services had to come under close scrutiny.

"The approach of the current Government which puts the army first and uses the air force and the navy in supporting roles will no longer be appropriate looking to the future.

"We are living in a maritime zone and therefore need to put the focus on our maritime forces."

He said the army needed a new role.

"We would need to restructure the army and re-role it as some kind of an embarked marine combat brigade."

He said defence thinking needed to put more emphasis on the navy and the air force with a restructured army to support it.

That would mean more warships for the navy than the two frigates it already had - both of which were about to go into a mid life upgrade.

"Now is not too soon to begin thinking about the navy beyond the current navy. What are we going to replace the current two frigates with?"

He said there was no doubt the country should return to a combat air force. The Labour government axed the air force's Skyhawk combat aircraft in 2001 after reversing a National decision to replace the ageing Skyhawks with F16 jet fighters.

"The air force, like the navy, will need an additional combat arm. Whether we are taking manned or unmanned aircraft is hard to know."

He said it was not wrong to rebuild the army, but the question had to be asked "where next?"

An army rebuild needed to focus on a more rapid deployment of combat army units.

"There is an irony that a government that set itself a task of building itself a world-class capable army able to respond at short notice has ended up with an army which has got longer states of readiness than the one it inherited."

He said his view, which was not widely shared, was that today's army was no better equipped for the emerging strategic environment than the army was when the Labour Government came to power nine years ago.

"Do we still need a kind of First World War structure to generate the flexible combat element we look for increasingly?

"I am not convinced that a structure which suited the First World War or even the Boer War is likely to be the optimum structure for the 21st century."

"We don't seem to have learnt much about essential requirements for high readiness, well-equipped, well-trained troops and troops we can support with our own air assets."

It was impossible to train troops in "air-land integration", he said.

"That renders questionable the Government's thrust for a world credible army which can't be done without having the ability to train for air-land and maritime-land integration.'

The navy's new multi-role ship HMNZS Canterbury was a step ahead, he said.

- NZPA
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
News just in (today).

Kiwi injured in Afghan bomb attack
MICHAEL FIELD - Fairfax Media | Wednesday, 08 October 2008
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/4720400a6479.html

An explosive device has gone off near a New Zealand patrol in Afghanistan.

A New Zealand Defence Force statement said one person was slightly injured in the second attack this year on New Zealanders in the region.

The statement said the patrol in Bamyan Province was forced to stop after one of its vehicles suffered damage from an Improvised Explosive Device (IED).

One member of the patrol suffered a "very minor cut to the face", and was treated at the scene. He has returned to active duty.

The IED was in much the same area of another in March this year which also damaged a vehicle but hurt no one.

"The area in which the patrol took place is known for having tribal and criminal tensions between different groups and as a result the patrol was larger than normal," Commander Shaun Fogarty said.

"Currently NZDF personnel remain at the site of the IED awaiting the arrival of an investigation team who'll examine the site."

He said they were reviewing the security status of the area and the possibility of an increased threat.

"This incident is another reminder that we can't be complacent."

Bamyan until now has been relatively quiet unlike the east and south east where NATO forces are engaged in severe conflict with the Taliban and al-Qaida

New Zealand has a 140-strong Provincial Reconstruction Team in the province.

Last Sunday 129 personnel departed from Ohakea Air Force Base to begin the next six month deployment to Afghanistan.
NZ soldier injured in Afghan bomb blast
New 1:04PM Wednesday Oct 08, 2008
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10536477

A NZ Defence Force member has been injured in a bomb attack in Afghanistan after the vehicle his patrol was travelling in was struck by an Improvised Explosive Device (I.E.D).

The blast happened in Bamyan Province, the same area as an earlier incident in March.

The injured person was treated at the scene for a minor cut to the face and there were no other injuries.

Defence Force spokesperson Commander Shaun Fogarty said an investigation into the attack would be carried out.

"The area in which the patrol took place is known for having tribal and criminal tensions between different groups and as a result the patrol was larger than normal. Currently NZDF personnel remain at the site of the IED awaiting the arrival of an investigation team who'll examine the site," Commander Fogarty said.

"The NZDF is constantly reviewing the security status of the area, and the possibility of any increased threat. This incident is another reminder that we can't be complacent."

The 140-strong NZ Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) is tasked with assisting in security and reconstruction in Bamyan Province.

The New Zealand Defence Force currently has around 595 personnel involved in 15 operations and deployments around the world.

- NZ HERALD STAFF
Some other good news...

NZ troops and GIs reunite
The Press | Wednesday, 08 October 2008
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/4719660a6479.html

Kiwi troops have been training with United States troops for the first time in decades at a hi-tech combat centre in Germany.

The 172-strong contingent from the 2/1st Infantry Battalion based at Burnham Military Camp in Canterbury will return to New Zealand this weekend after a month on a training exercise with forces from Australia, Britain, Canada and the US.

Defence Minister Phil Goff said Cooperative Spirit 08, involving 1800 troops, focused on counter- insurgency operations in an Afghan scenario and included training in peacekeeping and security-combat operations.

It was the first time in decades that New Zealand, whose antinuclear policy was at odds with the US, had been part of the cooperation, Mr Goff said.

"The defence relationship with the United States has undergone a major shift over the past nine years....

"Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, there has been an acknowledgement that we can and should work closely together in support of our shared interests, while maintaining our commonly understood difference."

New Zealand would also soon have its pilots training on new NH- 90 helicopters with the German air force, he said.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
It is unfortunate that a soldier was wounded, but fortunately it sounds as though the injury was minor if they were treated on scene and returned to duty. Given that it sounded like a superficial facial wound, he might end up with a story to tell at a bar in the future...

As for the other story, it is IMV very good news to hear of a joint training exercise where the Kiwis and Americans were involved together. Hopefully this is something that will continue and grow again.

-Cheers
 

FlashG

New Member
Thanks recce.k1 for the post with Dr Lance Beaths comments; I check stuff out but missed that. I think he right - a Army when you are surrounded by the worlds largest moat may not be the best prioritisation!

At risk of "political" comment - given the volatility in the market place we have seen, and will continue to, it is probably questionable whether any further really large-scale acquisitions over and above those pencilled in will be approved by any government, until the world economy has settled. I expect a period of consolidation and simply bringing the new gear on line, rather than any sudden extra acquistions; even though I would love a 3rd ANZAC second hand (if still available) and perhaps reactivating the Aermacchis.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Will be interesting to see what the economic slowdown does to new defence aquisitions. Perhaps the answer depends on which party is in power as to how they handle growing the economy. Hence my comments on the rnzn thread about growing the ship-building industry (& partnering up with the Australians, but they would need some incentives to let NZ in, after all they have their industry to protect, so why should they? Unless say we committ to new Frigates or multi-role compatible OPV hulls etc). If we can't afford a second hand 3rd Frigate then how about a few more cheaper (and locally built) IPV's and OPV's with added MCM and diving capabilities? (And doesn't some of the Interisland RoRo ferries need replacing soon-ish - another job for BAE Aust nowadays)?

I don't think we can grow the aircraft assembly business in NZ (not that I'm an expert and/or despite PAC's successes). Perhaps another area could be assembling the Army's proposed truck fleet replacement (isn't the current govt floating the idea of re-establishing one of the former railway workshops? If so then perhaps they should be assembling the new commuter trains for AK & WN, but also how about Army trucks? NZ private industry can build decent passenger coaches, why not trucks)?


Just seen that the 2008 LTDP Update has been released:
http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/reports-publications/ltdp-2008.pdf
Some more detail provided on the projects.
Also "High Preparedness Infantry Company" on page 71 talks about "As an initial step a High Preparedness Platoon Group will be developed. A full High Preparedness Company Group will be generated once the High Preparedness Platoon has been established".
 

greenie

New Member
The LPDT makes for an interesting read,Two things, I couldnt see the replacement for the big E anywhere and surly to comply with its mission statement it has to at least reinstate 14 Sqn,ie To defend NZ teritory .
 
Top