F-X deal is back on. Brazil back in action

[Vivendi]

It seems Brazil has made a shortlist:

http://www.estadao.com.br/nacional/not_nac251435,0.htm

So, Rafale, SH, and Gripen NG is in. F-16, SU-35 and Typhoon is out.

Whereas the elimination of F-16 and Typhoon did not surprise me, I was surprised by SU-35 going out, very interesting.

I am not a betting person, but if I were, I would put my money on Rafale and Gripen NG (60-40).

Comments from the experts?

V

 

[Human Bass]

I would go for the Gripen. Great bang for the buck and scandinavians are the best people people to deal with, hard working and ethical, always delivery what they promise.

 

[Jezza]

An interesting line-up. Three nations, one US. The Super Hornet - pretty much a complete package, off-the-shelf - versus some serious industrial participation opportunities in updating Rafale or completing Gripen NG. One contender half the size of the other two. The common factor, perhaps, is that all three have or will have pretty good across-the-board capability in air combat and both land and maritime NTISR and strike. Among them, the Rafale could have very good range/weapon load, the NG attractive operating costs and the Super Hornet is lowest risk.

 

[rossfrb_1]

Wonder if the full APG-79 kit is on offer with the SH,
as well late model AMRAAM and even aim 9x block II and the J series goodies?
I don't know the politics of the region, so have no idea of the relationship US has with Brazil. The SH certainly offers the option of carrying a wide range of desirable things that can go bang.

rb

 

[zeven]

An interesting line-up. Three nations, one US. The Super Hornet - pretty much a complete package, off-the-shelf - versus some serious industrial participation opportunities in updating Rafale or completing Gripen NG. One contender half the size of the other two. The common factor, perhaps, is that all three have or will have pretty good across-the-board capability in air combat and both land and maritime NTISR and strike. Among them, the Rafale could have very good range/weapon load, the NG attractive operating costs and the Super Hornet is lowest risk.

what do you mean with lowest risk??

and Gripen offers a wide area of options when it comes to weapons too..

 

[Vivendi]

To me it seems offsets, and technology transfer will be very important for Brazil.

I also noticed this ( google translated):

The 36 aircraft, which would incorporate the 1st batch should be delivered from 2014, with life expectancy of at least 30 years. Thus, over the next few years, will be replaced, gradually, the current Mirage 2000 fighters, F-5M and A-1M. The set of technological knowledge and skills acquired in this acquisition will help ensure that Brazil is able to produce or participate in the production of 5th generation fighter for a future in the medium and long term.

I really don't think that the SH can win this; the US had their chance with the F-35 however offered the F-16 instead. Brazil is a rapidly growing and very ambitious nation, as demonstrated by the plans to build a nuclear sub. And they want to do more than just being a customer.


Saab has some 5. gen plans (presented to S. Korea this summer) -- what 5. gen plans do Dassult have? Could be interesting to know, and seems relevant for the Brazil tender.


V

 

[Salty Dog]

To me it seems offsets, and technology transfer will be very important for Brazil.

I really don't think that the SH can win this; the US had their chance with the F-35 however offered the F-16 instead. Brazil is a rapidly growing and very ambitious nation, as demonstrated by the plans to build a nuclear sub. And they want to do more than just being a customer.

V

Offsets and ToT are important.

The Brazilians preferred the F-35, but it was not available to meet their acquisition timeline, hence they were offered the F-16BR.


IMHO are the following chances for the remaining candidates:

Dassault Rafale - best chances from a political point of view

SAAB Gripen NG - best chances from a cost point of view.

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - best chances from an operator point of view.

 

[Human Bass]

Brazil could never afford the F-35. I personally like the F-16 with AESA.

 

[Vivendi]

IMHO are the following chances for the remaining candidates:

Dassault Rafale - best chances from a political point of view

SAAB Gripen NG - best chances from a cost point of view.

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - best chances from an operator point of view.

The 5.gen plans I qouted in a previous post, are those perceived as being relevant?

Why do you see the SH as having best chances from an operator point of view?

Has there been any info on what capabilities will be offered from the different vendors?


Thanks,


V

 

[Salty Dog]

The 5.gen plans I qouted in a previous post, are those perceived as being relevant?

Why do you see the SH as having best chances from an operator point of view?

Has there been any info on what capabilities will be offered from the different vendors?


Thanks,


V

I do not know if 5.0 gen is relevant as details of the RFP are classified. So this is open to speculation.

You should seek out each manufacturer/aircraft to see for yourself their capabilities.

IMHO the Rhino has quite a bit more operational capabilities than either the Rafale or the Gripen NG. Coupled to the fact there is a larger population of Rhinos with thousands of operational flight hours. That is my opinion, don't ask me to list.

 

[ROCK45]

capabilities

F/A-18 have capabilities are rock solid and it's a very real and operational aircraft currently, not in a future F3 model either. The Block II E/F Hornets might be the second most advance fighters flying when adding in cockpit design, radar, and weaons systems. They carries every weapon under the sun accept naval mines. The new Gripen isn't a finished product either but that's not saying its a bad aircraft.

All three choices are huge increases in tech and capabilities over Brazil's current AMX, F-5, and older C model Mirages. Brazil will gain so much by moving forward with these types.

I hope for Brazil they move forward quickly at this point and get production started.

 

[the road runner]

Salty Dog and Rock45 ,i concor with your above post about the F-18E/F block 2.I think that the F18 superbugs is an awsome weapons platform that can switch form fighter to strike platform.I honestley think that for these reasons the F18E/F block 2 is one of the best strike/fighter platforms around.

1.ASEA radar that is a fifth generation radar

2.strike/fighter platform ,can be a strike platform and then turn into an air defence platform(thats 2 capabilities in 1 aircraft)

3.Beieng a Navy plane(Navy= ones who project power)it is capable of carring most of the weapons inventory of US navy.ASM,Jdam,AIM9X,Amram,ect.and all future wepons intergration onto F18EFG will be paid for by US navy.

4.Can be Re-configured to an F18 Growler electronic Jammer and use anti radiation missiles.

5. 545 super bugs beieng purchased by the US navy including 90(requirement) EA-18Growlers,plus the 24 F18 purchased for the RAAF,this aircraft will be inservice for the next 20+ years.

Basically IMHO the F18 superbug is a very flexible platform,when you start to see all the bells and whistles on this fighter,the counter measures, sensours and wepons fit available,it truley is an awsome aircraft.

Check below link for more info on F18EFG,weapons fit,sensors,counter measures ect

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/fa18/


AS for Raphael,well i would stay away form that plane for one major reason.

1.its a barstard of a child.what i am trying to say is that the Raphael has not got one export to date(well not that im aware of).I think that tells alot about the aircraft the Raphael is loosing out too.ie GRIPEN,F18EF better capability for price paid.<<<please dont ask me to explain this one.its just what i think.

This is what SAAB's Bob Kemp, senior vice president for international sales thinks of his compeditor aircraft,especialy Raphael.................................

He says the Dassault Rafale will “never get started on the export market” because of what he called “launch customer nervousness – who wants to be the first and perhaps only customer?”(link is pasted below,its the last link i have posted)

AS for Gripen,i think this is the best single engine aircraft going around at the moment.I would like to see Brazil purchase this Aircraft and also AWACS,even ground station from SAAB to create a complete AD system.Im a big fan of how ,Thailand purchased a complete system of SAAB,in my view this is the way to go for Brazil too.

Sweden(ordered 204 aircraft),South Africa(28) who was the launch customer,now Thailand(12) who is next? India,Argentina,Ecuador,Bazil

who is leasing Gripen? Czech Republic leasing 12 aircraft,Hungry is leasing 14 aircraft and will purchase the aircraft outright after lease expires.

You can read about Gripen exports and leasing arangements here

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/gripen/

The Gripen is single engined which would have to be the cheapest to operate out of the 3 contenders(f18,raphael,Gripen)and its multi roled too.

Also Saab is pitching the Gripen NG as an alternitive to the JSF

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2045593/posts

AS can be seen the Gripen NG is in development and will try and be a compeditor to the JSF..............................................................

Kemp says many potential F-35 customers were uncomfortable with the “You’re either with us or against us” approach to fighter sales. He claimed that growing dissatisfaction with technology transfer, workshare and offsets, coupled with F-35 cost escalation and slipping timescales have led “more and more JSF customers coming to talk to us about a replacement for JSF”.

What do the members think of this above Quote?
IMHO i think that countries who have sighned up to JSF will stick with the JSF program.Maybee this is just to keep the JSF team honest?

Hope my posts are getting better

 

[zeven]

Intressting input.

just a couple of things i want to add.

1. Brasil already operate ireye

2, what Bob Kemp says is irrelevant. and i would take SAABs marketing director seriously, infact, i think its a disgrace he even mention SAAB kompetitors. same goes for, LM and their marketing department.

3, but i indeed agree, Gripen is the best singel engine platform out there, by far. and Gripen NG will be able to compete with F-35. however, both Rafale and F-18 is outstanding weaponplatforms too.

4, about Rafale lack of export success. isee it as rather unlucky, and we all know that the french aint very smooth all times. (exampel, when they said, India, bend like bamboo under preasure)
anyway. Rafale deserves export success, i even rate Rafale higher than EF in certain aspects.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Wonder if the full APG-79 kit is on offer with the SH,
as well late model AMRAAM and even aim 9x block II and the J series goodies?
I don't know the politics of the region, so have no idea of the relationship US has with Brazil. The SH certainly offers the option of carrying a wide range of desirable things that can go bang.

rb

It has to be. The Block II SH is the current production standard Super Hornet. It features a re-designed nose to handle the new APG-79 radar...

I doubt they'll restart production of the "old" nose...

The APG-73 radar is also not in production any longer, AFAIK and I doubt that it would be restarted in order to equip 36x fighters either.

Whether of course Brazil will get a "fully capable" APG-79 (and whether ANY foreign customer does anyway) is a different argument altogether...

 

[Vivendi]

Offsets and ToT are important.

The Brazilians preferred the F-35, but it was not available to meet their acquisition timeline, hence they were offered the F-16BR.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/08/26/315081/brazil-nears-first-cut-for-f-x2-fighter-bidders.html

Lockheed confirms that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will not be offered for the Brazilian order, which requires the selected manufacturer to transfer all technology required to maintain the aircraft.

However the acquisition timelines may have been one additional reason? Or is Flightglobal misinformed?

Israel has ordered F-35 with delivery date of 2014, but that's Israel of course.


V

 

[Vivendi]

I do not know if 5.0 gen is relevant as details of the RFP are classified. So this is open to speculation.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/10/06/316814/brazil-names-three-finalists-for-f-x2-contract-rejects-three.html

The government's ultimate strategy is to use F-X2 technology offsets to cultivate a domestic industry robust enough to "produce or to participate in the production of a fifth generation fighter in the medium- to long-term future", says the air force.

Seems the Brazilian air force wants a fifth generation fighter? Or is flightglobal misinformed?


V

 

[Salty Dog]

Many folks outside the military-industrial complex take "technology transfer" and "offsets" as directly related to the actual system or product of acquisition. Often the technology transfer and offsets are in other areas such as manufacturing, industrial research, medicine, agriculture, fisheries, etc. Much of the technology that goes into weapons systems development is proprietary to the point that the US Armed Services themselves aren't completely privy to all the technological details. They concentrate instead on developing uses and tactics to employ their systems. After all, that's why they are acquired in the first place.

 

[Salty Dog]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/10/06/316814/brazil-names-three-finalists-for-f-x2-contract-rejects-three.html

Seems the Brazilian air force wants a fifth generation fighter? Or is flightglobal misinformed?

V

Brazil already has an agreement with Russia to "participate" (not acquire) in development of the PAK-FA 5th generation fighter program.

 

[winnyfield]

I really don't think that the SH can win this; the US had their chance with the F-35 however offered the F-16 instead.

V

The US isn't a company. It's Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

I'm putting money on the SH. It's known that Brazil's working towards a domestic aeropace industry and Boeing seems willing to give others some SH work (see India).

Anyone know why the Eurofighter didn't make the cut? They've seemingly lost every open tender so far.

 

[swerve]

Brazil already has a very successful domestic aerospace industry. Embraer is the third largest manufacturer of commercial aircraft.

What Brazil wants is access to more advanced technology than it already has. I doubt that subcontract work on F-18E structures would be enough, unless it helped them make more advanced structures, & Boeing might be reluctant to help Embraer in that field. Embraer seems to be moving towards directly competing with the 737 or its successor.

The Brazilians may be looking to boost their avionics & missile industries, where willingness to undertake co-operative development would be needed.

Saab probably has the edge industrially, because its willing to get more deeply involved than the others. It also has the best record in this area - see South Africa, which the Brazilians will be well aware of.