Grand Danois
Entertainer
Quite entertaining piece...
Brazil building own nuclear submarine
- Thread starter drg
- Start date
Yes but your original point is still nonsense Firehorse-1 or 2 SSNs that Brazil might be able to build (maybe 3 at a push?) is not going to give her much leverage in any Antarctic claim.
Brazil would need the entire package: SSNs, a working Carrier Task Group, troops on the Ground, secure supply lines, air superiority the whole lot, in an intergrated action to NATO standards-because in any war I see Five countries (plus one that is very close) who could put (or contribute to) a Task Group to sea that operates to NATO standards and has generally better weapons and availabilty/efficiency than Brazil has or can afford at the moment or in the near future.
This is of course, if you think a lump of Ice and rock in the middle of nowhere is worth fighting over.
Brazil would need the entire package: SSNs, a working Carrier Task Group, troops on the Ground, secure supply lines, air superiority the whole lot, in an intergrated action to NATO standards-because in any war I see Five countries (plus one that is very close) who could put (or contribute to) a Task Group to sea that operates to NATO standards and has generally better weapons and availabilty/efficiency than Brazil has or can afford at the moment or in the near future.
This is of course, if you think a lump of Ice and rock in the middle of nowhere is worth fighting over.
1. There is no prospect of anyone fighting over Antarctica in the foreseeable future, & in any case, SSNs can't do that sort of fighting. Neither are SSNs useful for sea lane protection. They're very good at sinking ships, but that is a tiny part of sea lane protection.
2. There is at present no useful land route from Brazil to the Pacific, & the routes planned or under construction will provide very minor outlets for Brazilian goods, a very small fraction of the capacity of Atlantic ports.
The only current routes on paved roads are via Argentina & Chile (& still, only a handful of paved roads connecting them), a long way, & far more expensive than sea transport. Via Bolivia, freight can travel by rail from the border at Corumba (Brazil - got its paved road to the rest of Brazil in 1987) to Santa Cruz by rail (the passenger train was once named the "Death Train", because of the number of derailments - but the worst I had to cope with was the unwelcome attentions of those uniformed thieves sometimes called the Bolivian police), but the rail link has very low capacity, & from Santa Cruz westwards the road network is very poor, much of it not yet paved. It was agreed last year to pave a route from Brazil to Chile via Bolivia but that'll take a while to be completed.
The first direct road is now being built from Brazil to Peru. When it is built, it will be able to carry Brazilian exports, but capacity & cost will make it a very minor route compared to exports via the Atlantic coast. At present, it is easier to ship heavy freight to & from the Peruvian Amazon region via Brazil, using the rivers, than over the Andes to Peruvian ports.
Thanks for all that info. Will Bolivia ever get her Pac. coast back from Chile? If that were to occur, new roads won't be long in coming. I was just thinking in longer terms.
SSNs are force multipliers, even if they can't do many things other platforms can. And South Atlantic & Indian oceans combined are very big areas; having SSNs will allow to easily avoid choke points, IMO.
Actually, I wonder if the distance to East Asia is about the same from Brasil Atlantic coast vs. nearest port to W. Brazil on S.American Pac. coast?
SSNs are force multipliers, even if they can't do many things other platforms can. And South Atlantic & Indian oceans combined are very big areas; having SSNs will allow to easily avoid choke points, IMO.
Actually, I wonder if the distance to East Asia is about the same from Brasil Atlantic coast vs. nearest port to W. Brazil on S.American Pac. coast?
Hey mates, before everyone goes off into what the Brazilian SSN capabilities and missions may be, let's put the proper perspective on this.
The Brazilian SSN can be compared to upgrading from a regional turboprop airplane to a regional jet, and no more.
Some folks may think it's like going from a regional turboprop straight to a Boeing 767 or Airbus A300, . . . for Brazil it's not.
The Brazilian SSN will be a SSK with a nuclear power pack.
Hope this helps.
The Brazilian SSN can be compared to upgrading from a regional turboprop airplane to a regional jet, and no more.
Some folks may think it's like going from a regional turboprop straight to a Boeing 767 or Airbus A300, . . . for Brazil it's not.
The Brazilian SSN will be a SSK with a nuclear power pack.
Hope this helps.
Kind of like a Scorpene with a nuclear core and/or nuclear batteries in a pack?
This whole project sounds a bit to me like pork barreling.
Bolivia won't get the coast back. Bolivia has no chance of regaining it by force (the Chilean armed forces would crush the Bolivians without getting out of first gear), & after 125 years, the people living there think of themselves as Chilean, & would not accept cession to Bolivia.
In the unlikely event that Bolivia did get back the coast, it might set back the construction of paved roads, not accelerate it. The paving of a route from Brazil to Chile through Bolivia is being paid for by Brazil & Chile.
Chile (along with the rest of the Southern Cone) is more of a lower-tier first world country than third world, but Bolivia is emphatically third world. When I was there, crossing the Bolivian borders with Argentina & Brazil was like falling off a cliff: incomes plunged, everything (roads, railways, public services, shops) was cheaper, shabbier, worse-maintained. And that was from a poorer than average region of Brazil to one of the richest regions of Bolivia, & from the poorest corner of Argentina. The Brazilian road to the border was smooth, wide, & well-engineered: the Bolivian road was a potholed muddy track. Argentinean & Brazilian border officials were neat, clean & professional. The Bolivians were scruffy, sloppy, & looking for ways to extort bribes. I've never seen such a contrast before or since.
BTW, the planned road will run to Iquique, which is in territory (Tarapaca province) which was ceded to Chile by Peru. Bolivias former coast is further south - Antofagasta province.
I would expect Brazilian exports via Pacific ports to be limited to goods from the far western Brazilian states, which are closer to the Pacific than the Atlantic. Overland transport is much more expensive than shipping. For the same reason, the Amazon will continue to serve as the main export channel for goods from Amazonas state.
It's also possible to use roads from S.Brazil to Valparaiso, Chile, across Uruguay, Paraguay & Argentina- bypassing Bolivia. I would think those roads are in better condition!
http://www.deltatranslator.com/brazil-map.jpg
Why work on SSN if U-214 with the best AIP could be a better "pack"?! I doubt Brazil will use their SSNs as showcase for dignitaries and as SSK on steroids. Once their 1st SSN is operational, it will go far & way- circumnavigating S.America, visit S.Africa, and maybe India.
http://www.deltatranslator.com/brazil-map.jpg
Why work on SSN if U-214 with the best AIP could be a better "pack"?! I doubt Brazil will use their SSNs as showcase for dignitaries and as SSK on steroids. Once their 1st SSN is operational, it will go far & way- circumnavigating S.America, visit S.Africa, and maybe India.
They are. It's also a very long way to drive (remember, every ton/km on road costs several times as much as by sea), the paved roads across the Andes from Argentina to Chile are counted in low single figures (in the 1980s there was exactly one), time savings for road over sea transport diminish the longer the journey (drivers need to rest) & the more border crossing, & Valparaiso is further south. Also, Valparaiso will soon be overloaded even without Brazilian traffic, & a planned expansion is not going to be ready in time to prevent it having capacity problems.
I can see the value in sending goods from Acre to the nearest Pacific ports: you save a long road trip, or cut transhipments from two (road-river-ocean - though you can load onto an ocean-going ship at Amazon ports, such as Manaus) to one. But from southern Brazil, it makes no sense. You're already relatively close to the coast. Why drive 2-3000 km, over a major mountain range & at least two borders, when you could drive to Rio Grande, Itajai, or one of the other nearby ports?
Sorry mate you are off-base on these.
Road conditions in South America are not like you would find in Europe or in the USA. With few exceptions you are better off traveling around in an SUV for your own safety and comfort, that includes inner city traffic too. Let's not even mention freight trucks.
Even if the Brazilians have an SSN, it's not going to be taking off to far away places especially on a regular basis. Autonomy is not based just on the powerplant, but also on crew numbers, watch requirements and supplies. Even on steroids, a smaller SSN will not have the same high speed or autonomy as it's larger bretheren.
That map I posted shows railroad too- the most economical land transportation. If the destination is say, in Japan, Korea or HK will it be cheaper to go around the Horn or via Indian Ocean (with frequent storms) & Singapore/Indonesian straits than use rail to Chile, load ships there and just cross the Pacific?
I mean that SSNs would do some long training cruises- the USN, Soviet Navy, and I'm sure the UK & France did the same with their nuclear subs. For the Royal Navy, that came handy in the Falklands.
I mean that SSNs would do some long training cruises- the USN, Soviet Navy, and I'm sure the UK & France did the same with their nuclear subs. For the Royal Navy, that came handy in the Falklands.
Rail systems in South America are even less utilized than roadways. Those that exist use used mainly for bringing bulk minerals and ores from mine locations to ports. Nearly all other cargo is transported by truck. I agree, very un-economical and inefficient, however, this is the current reality of cargo transportation here in South America.
Once again, the Brazilian SSN will not have the same autonomy or capacity as any UK, Russian, USA, or French SSN. The Brazilian Navy has no need for routine deployment of their fleet to other continents except in rare cases to participate in naval exercises or support peacekeeping missions. The principal reason given by the Government of Brazil for acquiring an SSN is to patrol their 200 NM economic exclusion zone. "Long training cruises" as you mention would contradict this.
Even the UK deployments to the Falklands of SSNs required support-SSNs need resupplying, having an indefinite amount of fuel to supply your motors is only half of what is needed for long endurance-the crew still need supplies.
Salty Dog, if they are building this SSN to patrol Brazils EEZ, and it will be the size of an SSK, why don't they just build more subs with AIP-which surely gives the same result but is alot cheaper than building an SSN?
Salty Dog, if they are building this SSN to patrol Brazils EEZ, and it will be the size of an SSK, why don't they just build more subs with AIP-which surely gives the same result but is alot cheaper than building an SSN?
This program doesn't seem to make any sence apart from willy wagging but isn't that what the carrier's for
I too feel that a Brazilian SSN and CV are not an efficient and effective use of naval resources for the missions the Brazilian Navy must fulfill. They could put better use of their funding into advanced SSKs, MPAs and surface combatants with better AAW capabilites.This program doesn't seem to make any sence apart from willy wagging but isn't that what the carrier's for
The reality is Brazil will continue to stubbornly hold on to both programs unless we see a radical change in the government. Remember there already was a radical change in the government when socialist President Lula was elected years ago and this same government today continues to fund the SSN and CV programs.
Your map is many years out of date. There are no functioning railways from the Atlantic to the Pacific in South America. The railway shown from Mendoza to Santiago & Valparaiso closed in 1984. There is now a project to re-open it, but don't hold your breath.
Cross-border railways are rare, & even where they exist, they are rarely used. For example, Bolivia is, in theory, connected by rail to both Argentina & Brazil, but cross-border trains stopped running in the 1980s. I don't know if they have resumed.
Gauges differ, even within countries, e.g. travelling from Buenos Aires to Santiago meant changing trains twice, because of gauge breaks. Railways were often built as separate networks, connecting a region with an export product (e.g. the mine railways Salty Dog mentions, some of which are flourishing - and at least one of which is cross-border) to a port, & not linked to any other railway.
Most of those built for agricultural products, e.g. in Patagonia, closed many years ago, & all that survives are stations converted to other uses. Some are railway museums, with a few metres of track & a locomotive, maybe a carriage, parked on it.
I find the state of railways in South America rather sad. I've travelled by train in a few S. American countries, but was often forced to use other modes because passenger rail services were too infrequent, too unreliable, or had ceased altogether. But I have travelled on a Patagonian train (you out there, Paul Theroux?). Not quite the Eurostar or a Nozomi Shinkansen, but had more of the romance of rail.
Here is a link to an interview held last week (4 Sep) with Admiral Julio Saboya, the Brazilian Navy Chief of Staff. The interview (in Portuguese) speaks about the Brazil's requirement for a martime surveillance system similar to their airspace management system SIVAM. Also discussed is the SSN program, aircraft carrier Sâo Paulo and the MB's A-4 aircraft. Very informative straight from the top brass.
Brazilian Navy Chief of Staff interview
You can click on the Union Jack and get a Babelfish translation.
Brazilian Navy Chief of Staff interview
You can click on the Union Jack and get a Babelfish translation.
Well, I guess they'll have to use the Panama Canal for East Asian trade. BTW, could Columbian port Buenaventura on Pac. side be an alternative if/once the isurgency there stops?
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/Columbia/Columbia.jpg
The map doesn't show any roads to it from Brazil, but building them could be
beneficial in the long run. There are also ideas of more railways connecting to each other-
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/gr...gpix/eurasian_land_bridge_propesed_bering.jpg
From http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conf-iclc/2007/landbridge_conf_cooper.html
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/Columbia/Columbia.jpg
The map doesn't show any roads to it from Brazil, but building them could be
beneficial in the long run. There are also ideas of more railways connecting to each other-
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/gr...gpix/eurasian_land_bridge_propesed_bering.jpg
From http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conf-iclc/2007/landbridge_conf_cooper.html
Hey mate, I'm not sure what the whole aim of your discussions are. Brazil has plenty of ports on the Atlantic seaboard. Brazil is not going to export it's goods westward through neighbouring countries. There is also relatively little on the western side of Brazil except for some agriculture. The major manufacturing, mining, meat, and agriculture come from the South-Central and South-Eastern areas of Brazil.
The studies you show on the overland rail routes are nice, but they would take decades to implement especially with the South America regimes. Those mountainous regions also do not look all that inviting to run major railways.