AMRAAM and R-77 performance review

[Totoro]

As far as i know, su27sk that chinese got could NOT use r-77, their FCS had to be modernized (which was allegedly done sometime after 2000.) in order for them to use it.

 

[Chrom]

I'm sorry I meant serial production for the VVS. So another question, the Su-27SK can fire the R-77? Would that mean that the Su-27S can fire it?

And Chrom do you have any info on the SMT modernization for the VVS that you mentioned. I've never heard of it, and was under the impression that none were modernized.

No clear info. Some were definitely modernized if nothing more for testing purposes. About 15 were rejected by Algeria.

There is not such plane as Su-27S. There is Su-27SM for russian airforce, which can fire r-77.

 

[Feanor]

The ones rejected by Algeria were never purchased by the MoD. There were talks of purchasing them, and even evaluatory flights, but no actual purchases to my knowledge. Same with the testing models. They're in Mig Corp. hands not in the VVS.

The Su-27S is also known as Flanker-B (NATO designation). It's the initial production Su-27 with the Al-31F engine. Single seat.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu27_1.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-27s.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27#cite_note-6

 

[2S1]

Has this website not banned Wikipedia?

 

[Feanor]

I cited it along with two other sources, simply to demonstrate that the Su-27S/Flanker-B is a very common airplane, to my knowledge the main type flying in the VVS (5 regiments out of 7). If you honestly don't believe me, use google and dig up some info yourself. Fyi the Su-27SK is also evidence of the same. The K stands for Kommercheskiy (export version). So it the export variant of the Su-27S.

 

[Chrom]

The Su-27S is also known as Flanker-B (NATO designation). It's the initial production Su-27 with the Al-31F engine. Single seat.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu27_1.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-27s.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27#cite_note-6

Ah, yes, my bad. Mostly Su-27S is reffered as just SU-27. Yes, basic Su-27 (Su-27S) cant use R-77.

 

[Feanor]

But MiG-29S/Fulcrum-C can fire the R-77? Wiki claims it can, but I found no other sources confirming it. And wiki didn't have a source.

 

[kato]

R-77 on MiG-29S needs the N019ME radar. Vanilla N019M doesn't cut it, and i don't think all Russian MiG-29S have been upgraded (note: aircraft with both radar types are still MiG-29S Fulcrum-C).

Source: scramble.nl

 

[Feanor]

So some can and some can't? Also the VVS only flies 5 regiments (24 airframes each) of MiG-29S, with lots more in storage. Is it possible that the ones flying all, or to a large extent some, have the upgraded radar?

 

[Chrom]

R-77 on MiG-29S needs the N019ME radar. Vanilla N019M doesn't cut it, and i don't think all Russian MiG-29S have been upgraded (note: aircraft with both radar types are still MiG-29S Fulcrum-C).

Source: scramble.nl

Basic MIG-29S is Mig-29 9-13 unit - quite a lot were built, and they cant use R-77. In later 80x about 50 Mig-29S 9-13S (R-77 capable) were build - but only 16 were purchased by VVS, rest 30 were put in storage and later used for various tasks - testing new upgrades, partially converted and sold to 3rd countries, etc.
I dont know how many 9-13 were upgraded to 9-13S, but almost sure what none except few for testing & development purposes.

 

[Feanor]

So one squadron at most, and even then we're not sure. Ok. So how about R-77 production for the VVS. Has it been done? If so any clue on quantities? I would imagine at least the Su-27SM squadrons would have some.

 

[Chrom]

So one squadron at most, and even then we're not sure. Ok. So how about R-77 production for the VVS. Has it been done? If so any clue on quantities? I would imagine at least the Su-27SM squadrons would have some.

I've been told what almost no R-77 were purchased prior to Su-27SM program started. After Su-27SM programs launched, R-77 were purchased in enough quantity to supply these upgraded aircrafts.

 

[Feanor]

Do you have a source by any chance?

 

[Chrom]

Do you have a source by any chance?

I dont have referable source. But as quick mild proof - think about when this rocket accepted into service. 1994. In the next 10 years almost no military procurement was made, and especially in aviation.

 

[Feanor]

I meant actually a source that indicated that the SM regiments received the missile.

 

[Chrom]

I meant actually a source that indicated that the SM regiments received the missile.

It is part of package. There were some photos with R-77 attached, and in all articles describe Su-27SM with R-77. I hardly can think why would anyone specifically mention what such regiment received R-77.

 

[Feanor]

Do you have that article by any chance? I mean I would think that finally purchasing the most advanced missile we have developed for our air force would be worth an article.

 

[KLMN]

Do you have that article by any chance? I mean I would think that finally purchasing the most advanced missile we have developed for our air force would be worth an article.

You might find this useful (in Russian).
http://www.avanturist.org/forum/index.php/topic,31.7320.html

 

[Feanor]

Thanks for the link.

 

[stigmata]

I expect to see some very sophisticated countermeasures and anti-missile defenses making their way into tactical platforms otherwise the attrition is going to really get out of hand.

Agree, either that, or cheap unmanned stealthy subsonic UCAV, with primarily passive sensors, that you can afford to lose.
An extra benefit would be to send them on a one way mission for a high value target.