German Army Development

[kato]

Does anyhow have any insight into how real these numebrs are likely to be over time? How stretched is the budget in general? How about the broader political will?

The Bundeswehr wants too much, too fast in my opinion - procurementwise.

A lot of tight money is artificial. There's not enough money to modernize all those barracks from the 60s? Well, that budget part is frozen at 950 million, while the procurement part during the next 5 years will rise from 5.06 to 6.38 billion.
Procurement-only is actually what all raises of the budget over the next 5 years are planned to be spent on. Pretty much everything else stays as-is.

For the next 5 years, the planned-out procurement is billions above approved funding. Hence why they constantly go "we don't have enough money".

The targeted 30% level is not for procurement but for investment in general. Will be reached in 2011 by current planning.

 

[kato]

According to newspaper Rheinische Post, the Bundeswehr might be facing serious recruitment problems due to the Afghanistan War.

Ten percent of all officer cadets drop out, often citing Afghanistan as a reason.

Others now prefer jobs in the civilian industry, a problem apparently particularly rising with medical staff and pilots - Navy aviation and Airforce Transport Regiments apparently have up to 30% crew shortage, the small Flugbereitschaft (passenger and VIP jets, but also the A310 MRTTs) had 8 pilots quitting their service since January.
All of these units are currently in high demand due to Afghanistan and UNIFIL, and pilots in such units have had to do multiple tour of duties within the last few years; the Rheinische Post is citing an anonymous transport aviation pilot who has spent one year out of his four service years abroad, and in addition to that has to spend 180 days per year away from his home base.

Applications, depending on service, have been down up to 62% compared to the year before.
Recruitment numbers are still easily met; there were 11,500 applicants for 2,000 officer posts, and 31,000 applicants for 22,000 NCO and enlisted posts last year (the last number dropped about 50% within one year). However, the extremely high drop is a cause for concern, especially if it continues.

Afghanistan is of course not the only reason; financial cuts lately have also been cutting into it, with the Christmas bonus halfed now for example.

 

[eckherl]

Do any of you guys have a approx weight of a MTU MB 873 with tranny.

Thanks

 

[Waylander]

According to newspaper Rheinische Post, the Bundeswehr might be facing serious recruitment problems due to the Afghanistan War.

Ten percent of all officer cadets drop out, often citing Afghanistan as a reason.

Others now prefer jobs in the civilian industry, a problem apparently particularly rising with medical staff and pilots - Navy aviation and Airforce Transport Regiments apparently have up to 30% crew shortage, the small Flugbereitschaft (passenger and VIP jets, but also the A310 MRTTs) had 8 pilots quitting their service since January.
All of these units are currently in high demand due to Afghanistan and UNIFIL, and pilots in such units have had to do multiple tour of duties within the last few years; the Rheinische Post is citing an anonymous transport aviation pilot who has spent one year out of his four service years abroad, and in addition to that has to spend 180 days per year away from his home base.

Applications, depending on service, have been down up to 62% compared to the year before.
Recruitment numbers are still easily met; there were 11,500 applicants for 2,000 officer posts, and 31,000 applicants for 22,000 NCO and enlisted posts last year (the last number dropped about 50% within one year). However, the extremely high drop is a cause for concern, especially if it continues.

Afghanistan is of course not the only reason; financial cuts lately have also been cutting into it, with the Christmas bonus halfed now for example.

That happens when you are recruiting young guys with such nice things like free and good universities, good loan and such stuff while failing to mention the core requirements like duty, serving your country and doing what a soldier has to do--> fight in a warzone.

Ok, the politicians and their continious lack of support for our armed forces also play a big part I guess. In the end this was the reason why I didn't started an officers career.

 

[sgtgunn]

MG4 Question

Anyone know why the Bundswher went with the MG4 as the co-ax for the Puma rather than sticking with the MG3? A 5.56mm vehicle co-ax strikes me as an odd choice. I can understand the possible advantages of ammo commanality with MG4's carried by the dismounts, but it doesn't strike me as so much of an advanatge that it offsets the value of the larger caliber. Plus - those dismounts still have some MG3, right? I'd rather have the extra belted 7.62mm available.

Adrian

 

[Waylander]

The MG3 is only part of the group if needed.
I would think that space is an answer to the question.
Commonality with the group another one.

Remember that the Puma is designed to fit into an A400M at A configuration. This is a tight fit. For a MG3 one might need a bigger housing.
And the MG3 is slowly getting phased out with no spareparts getting produced anymore.
A new 7,62GPMG is in the pipe and maybe the MG4 in the Puma is only a stopgap solution.

One also gets alot more 5,56mm ammo into an IFV than 7,62mm.
And spray the tundra is one of the main missions for the coax on an IFV.
Massed infantry further away would be dead meat when facing the ABM ammo fo the 30mm, the same goes for infantry behind heavy cover.

In the end I doubt that anybody here really knows the answer.

 

[kato]

The MG3 is being removed from the infantry squad with introduction of IdZ (Infantry of the Future). The MG4 is a distinct part of IdZ.
I doubt the MG3 would need a larger housing btw - that thing is freaking huge already.

Considering there are only 120 million Euro budgeted for the MG3 successor, i really doubt it will be introduced in as large numbers as the MG3 was spread throughout the Heer. The MG3 successor will likely be rather a heavy machine gun in 7.62x51 suitable for mounting on the FLW series of remote-controlled weapon stations that are essentially replacing almost entirely the current MG3 ring mount, with something like 7,000 or so FLW stations planned on the GFF, GTF, GTK series of vehicles.
The MG4 will then be used by the infantry in place of MG3, as IdZ procurement continues; the MG3 will likely survive for some time still as an "auxiliary defense weapon" on the 6,000 or so remaining "standard" unarmored vehicles in the Bundeswehr, and presumably also, for the same purpose, on the various heavy armoured vehicles in specialist roles (ie Keiler, Dachs, Büffel, PzH2000 etc pp).
No idea what's planned with the tank MGs, but that line in the BwPlan on the Leo urban variant suggests at least such an upgrade would install something like a FLW100 on the loader's position. A heavy MG3 successor, if fitting physically, might be attractive for the coaxial MG.

Btw, does anyone have an idea which M2 variant is used on the FLW200, on those few vehicles that have that combination? Iirc only the AO variant Fennek (4 procured) use the combination of FLW200 with .50cal HMG.
I doubt it's a M3M, which the Navy uses on its helos as door guns. Vanilla M2HB?

 

[kato]

Do any of you guys have a approx weight of a MTU MB 873 with tranny.

[This Dutch forum] claims 6120 kg (in post #227, also with lots of pics of it).

 

[Waylander]

The AO Fenneks use a .50cal?
So far I thought that the BW only uses the MG3 or the GMW while the dutch use .50cals.
BTW, do the dutch use the same universal mount like we do?

 

[DavidDCM]

Do any of you guys have a approx weight of a MTU MB 873 with tranny.

Thanks

W.J. Spielberger in his book gives the following:

Engine, dry, with air filter: 2.71 (metric) tons

Change speed gearbox and steering gear with air fan, wet: 2,97 tons

Gear, complete incl. cooling system, ready for use: 6,05 tons

Seitenvorgelege (englisch word for that, @waylander?) incl. track drive and brakes: 0,54 tons

 

[kato]

The AO Fenneks use a .50cal?

That's a M2, and a Y license plate:
http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/pix/bw_spaehpz_fennek-050.jpg

Fennek and Dingo (first batch) don't actually use FLW100/200, but the older "Lafette 1530". The 1530 was pretty much the first overhead weapon station used by the Bundeswehr, and features less complicated optronics than the direct successor FLW200, and no optional stabilization.

The Dutch don't use a remote-controlled mount at all on the Fennek, but this apparent standard pintle mount instead:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/730/fennek0ad8.jpg

 

[eckherl]

Thanks DavidDCM & Kato for the information.

 

[Waylander]

Thanks for that Kato.

 

[Eggy]

The Dutch don't use a remote-controlled mount at all on the Fennek, but this apparent standard pintle mount instead:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/730/fennek0ad8.jpg

It's an RWS but can be used like a pintle mount as well.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/EggyNL/pathangar02.jpg

 

[kato]

Ah, thanks, didn't know that.

 

[kato]

Vehicles of the Army (in German), current issue of ES.

Couple things from that:

GTK Boxer:
First Batch:

• 85 Squad Carriers, FLW 100 / .50cal MG
• 65 Command Vehicle, FLW 100 / .50 cal MG
• 40 Support Vehicles, FLW 200 / 40mm GMG
• 72 Medical Carriers, unarmed

The "Support Vehicles" with 40mm GMG would likely replace the platoon-level 40mm GMG mounted on Wolf currently with light infantry units.
Procurement planned starting 2009.
14 vehicles per infantry company planned; likely structure two command vehicles for company plus three platoons with one command vehicle, two squad carriers and one support vehicle each. Command vehicles outfitted for 2+[3 to 5] soldiers, other vehicles for 2+10. Command Vehicles will act as hubs for IdZ/IdZ-ES integration into FüInfoSysH (below) for their subunits.

Offhand, above first batch is going to one airmobile infantry coy (in JgRgt 1), three coys mountain infantry (1 btl), three coys light infantry (JgBtl 292), and remainder (two battalions strength?) will likely be abused for deployment purposes as alternative equipment e.g. for mechanized infantry or paratroopers.

IdZ-ES (enhanced IdZ)
Initial requirement: 470 sets
Total requirement: 1100 sets
(one infantry squad of 10 men per set; 1100 would be enough for pretty much all infantry units of any type in the Army)

Modification to IdZ: Integration into FüInfoSysH Army C4I system; additional sensors; modified targeting systems / sights for weapons; use of fuel cells.
Procurement planned starting 2009.

Leopard 2
Waylander, something for you

All KPz Leopard 2 will be refitted in the "modification for enhanced task spectrum". This refit will contain: improvement of 360-degree awareness; enhanced protection in the rear and upper sections; integration into Army IFIS C3; new 120mm HE ammunition; FCS modification to 5000m max range for HE. Refitted tanks will be "heavier and somewhat less mobile".
Refit: 2010+

50 "Kpz Urban Operations" will be procured, 2012+, using a number of systems from the PSO project.

 

[harryriedl]

Vehicles of the Army (in German), current issue of ES.

Couple things from that:

GTK Boxer:
First Batch:

• 85 Squad Carriers, FLW 100 / .50cal MG
• 65 Command Vehicle, FLW 100 / .50 cal MG
• 40 Support Vehicles, FLW 200 / 40mm GMG
• 72 Medical Carriers, unarmed

The "Support Vehicles" with 40mm GMG would likely replace the platoon-level 40mm GMG mounted on Wolf currently with light infantry units.
Procurement planned starting 2009.
14 vehicles per infantry company planned; likely structure two command vehicles for company plus three platoons with one command vehicle, two squad carriers and one support vehicle each. Command vehicles outfitted for 2+[3 to 5] soldiers, other vehicles for 2+10. Command Vehicles will act as hubs for IdZ/IdZ-ES integration into FüInfoSysH (below) for their subunits.

Offhand, above first batch is going to one airmobile infantry coy (in JgRgt 1), three coys mountain infantry (1 btl), three coys light infantry (JgBtl 292), and remainder (two battalions strength?) will likely be abused for deployment purposes as alternative equipment e.g. for mechanized infantry or paratroopers.

IdZ-ES (enhanced IdZ)
Initial requirement: 470 sets
Total requirement: 1100 sets
(one infantry squad of 10 men per set; 1100 would be enough for pretty much all infantry units of any type in the Army)

Modification to IdZ: Integration into FüInfoSysH Army C4I system; additional sensors; modified targeting systems / sights for weapons; use of fuel cells.
Procurement planned starting 2009.

Leopard 2
Waylander, something for you

All KPz Leopard 2 will be refitted in the "modification for enhanced task spectrum". This refit will contain: improvement of 360-degree awareness; enhanced protection in the rear and upper sections; integration into Army IFIS C3; new 120mm HE ammunition; FCS modification to 5000m max range for HE. Refitted tanks will be "heavier and somewhat less mobile".
Refit: 2010+

50 "Kpz Urban Operations" will be procured, 2012+, using a number of systems from the PSO project.

will the Boxer go A-Stan to replace the or as an addition to the Wolf.

Also is the IzD going to be issued when needed on an arms room concept or is going to be general issue

 

[kato]

IdZ (IdZ-ES) is supposed to be issued generally, to all infantry squads. Hubbed Nodes for the C4I system will be established in Boxer, Puma (and in the future likely Bv-206S), and introduction of IdZ-ES will likely match the introduction of these systems.
The only unit to widely issue IdZ so far is JgBtl 292 afaik, with the system nodes mounted in Fuchs APCs.

I have no doubt we'll see Boxer in Afghanistan at some point. Couple years from now. Not as a Wolf replacement though - after all Boxer weighs about 10 times as much, and is about that much bigger too. Boxer will replace Fuchs APCs effectively in that role (currently 150 deployed in AFG and Balkans).
Wolf will at some point in the future be replaced by the GFF 1 vehicle class. When they find a vehicle that actually matches the requirements.

 

[Waylander]

As always you provided some very interesting facts and news.

Thanks for that!

And yeah these news are something for me.

Like the news before it seems like the Leopards are getting some much needed general upgrades which will give them strength and survivability well into the next century while the Bundeswehr finally adopts the idea of tanks in a supporting role in an urban environment (More than just saying "give this PzGren coy an additionally tanks platoon and lets see what they can make out of it").

 

[kato]

The 4/09 issue of Europäische Sicherheit sheds some light on a variety of projects, including:

SysFla (System Air Defense, Roland successor)

SysFla will be the future lower tier air defense system of the German Army. It's based entirely around a new surface-to-air missile, LFK/Diehl LFK NG. This missile will, at 28 kg, be somewhat larger and heavier than common current MANPADS, but with 10 km range and Mach 2.2 top speed has some benefits as well in comparison.
SysFla will implement three launch systems:
Mobile : integration into a vehicle launch system; likely Ozelot/LeFlaSys, replacing Stinger on a one-for-one basis there.
Light : development of a "CrewPADS" system for a light air defence troop, with a three-man crew operating and manhandling the entire system; may not replace all MANPADS, as MANPADS are also a simple on-issue item for general infantry (this system wouldn't be)
Stationary : vertical-launch containers integrated with a NBS C-RAM system to provide air defense for fixed sites; will likely use an alternative, active, seeker.
First components to be procured 2016, basic NBS C-RAM systems from 2010 on.

MrsKpSys (Mortar Combat System)

Definite Number: 38 weapons carriers plus unnamed number of command vehicles to be procured as initial capability until 2014. That would be enough to build 9 mortar platoons (of 4 units, as has been published before), and retain 2 weapon carriers for schooling.
The initial capacity will at least cover the Intervention Forces component of the Army. These currently have six infantry battalions, of which three are airborne. A imho not unlikely mix would give each airborne heavy company a single mortar platoon, and each of the three mechanized/motorized heavy companies two mortar platoons, for 9 platoons total.

Leopard

Uh, bit murky there. If i read that right, the "KPz UrbOps" is now going to be an optional module for the A6M, which can be switched for the standard "duel module" in-theater. Whatever.