It's actually in 2007 dollars (contract was signed in Feb 07), and since then about $380m in savings have been realised.
Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
weasel1962
New Member
Re:
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Capt. Picard
New Member
To change the subject...
This story from the Australian today under the title "RAAF likes the sound of the Growler". I think this is a bit of a suprise given the tightening economy but is welcome. So much for thinking Rudd wasn't defence friendly....
If I didn't like my job so much I'd put some horror stories on this forum to dispel that little missive.
as it is we get a warning every week reminding us that we run the risk of criminal or commonwealth action if we spill any information.
thats a damn shame as some obviously could do with a reality check.
sounds like defence under rudd could get worse!
If the Growlers are brought by the RAAF would that mean extra aircraft on top of the 24 F-18F or will they decide to stick with the 24 aircraft order and go 18 F-18F and 6 Growlers?
Note my prev response para 2.
i am pessimistic about defence under any labour govt. I served during the hawke and keating Govts.
Some of the cost cutting we experienced was horrifying to say the least.
here is an example.
I was a paratrooper. my main chute was a T10B-D
The reserve was a T10R
to save a few bucks, when the shelf life of the T10R,s spring loaded pilot chute ran out, they were not replaced. At the time, the spring loaded pilot chute cost @$11 US.
The army rationalised this by quoteing the fact that we had never experienced a death where a reserve would have saved the jumper, and just changed the reserve drill.
this change of malfunction drill involed, the para identifying he had a malfunction,pull the reserve handle, at the same time, stopping the reserve chute from dribbling out by holding it in place with his hands, and throwing the reserve chute down and away, so as it hit the slip stream. All this while falling at terminal velocity, with a 40kg pack hanging from your harness at 750 ft AGL.
After Pte Bateman died on ex diamond dollar in 1987,the pilot chutes were returned to service. I witnessed a malfunction some years later (broken static line) where the reserve deployed just a couple of hundred feet above the DZ, saving the life of the company 2IC.
We went on exersises with no blank ammo. seeing infantry men running around the bush yelling "BANG BANG!! HUUUGE EXPLOSION!" and making Indian sounds is humiliating to say the least. I pray that this labour govt does not let it go that bad.
We could not exchange worn out boots or uniforms...there were none to replace them with.Ok Ok , ill stop now....
Some of the cost cutting we experienced was horrifying to say the least.
here is an example.
I was a paratrooper. my main chute was a T10B-D
The reserve was a T10R
to save a few bucks, when the shelf life of the T10R,s spring loaded pilot chute ran out, they were not replaced. At the time, the spring loaded pilot chute cost @$11 US.
The army rationalised this by quoteing the fact that we had never experienced a death where a reserve would have saved the jumper, and just changed the reserve drill.
this change of malfunction drill involed, the para identifying he had a malfunction,pull the reserve handle, at the same time, stopping the reserve chute from dribbling out by holding it in place with his hands, and throwing the reserve chute down and away, so as it hit the slip stream. All this while falling at terminal velocity, with a 40kg pack hanging from your harness at 750 ft AGL.
After Pte Bateman died on ex diamond dollar in 1987,the pilot chutes were returned to service. I witnessed a malfunction some years later (broken static line) where the reserve deployed just a couple of hundred feet above the DZ, saving the life of the company 2IC.
We went on exersises with no blank ammo. seeing infantry men running around the bush yelling "BANG BANG!! HUUUGE EXPLOSION!" and making Indian sounds is humiliating to say the least. I pray that this labour govt does not let it go that bad.
We could not exchange worn out boots or uniforms...there were none to replace them with.Ok Ok , ill stop now....
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
They committed to the previous governments % of GDP rise in spending. Its up to us the Australian public to hold the bastards to it!
Still, lets hope they buy the growlers hey?
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
They have committed publicly to the 3% rise that the previous Government promised, but in the background and less visible areas they have ripped the guts out of defence.
Defence is NOT as well funded under the present Government as it was only last year. No amount of smoke and mirrors will be able to conceal this in coming years...
That horse bolted long ago - and the public can't do anything about it. It's done already.
More's the pity that the Opposition is so useless at the moment that it's not giving it the attention it deserves.
It should not come as a shock. The ALP is a disperate group or conflicitng objectives and, from my expeirance, they only need to be seen (presumed) to be doing something with defence. Currently the only thing the Defmin appears to be working toward is trying to built political crediblity (by bagging out the previous goverment) leverage off their better projects (yes the ALP got the MU90 to work) and cutting ocst in a manner the will have adverse implications.
battlensign
New Member
Capt. Picard
New Member
It really is interesting that we have a situation where numerous Liberal defence project are, or have , come off the rails in the last 12 years and there is barely a squeak given on this board to the political responsibility for wasting the publics' money. Suprise, suprise ...when Labor is mentioned the conservative hoards (why are many defence peeple Liberals? They have the poorest track record in wartime in Australia) come out in droves.
It is clear that Conservative support on this board is OK and Labor is not, given the threats with post deletion etc that come with the mention of Labor politics. Watch the admins try to stop this discussion with mention of Labor support.
It is clear that Conservative support on this board is OK and Labor is not, given the threats with post deletion etc that come with the mention of Labor politics. Watch the admins try to stop this discussion with mention of Labor support.
Yep Wedgetail is delayed and so is the ARH (but both will be delivered). C-17, M1-A1 and f-18F wehen well (and showed a degree of flexilbity never seen with the ALP). FFGUP could have been a lot better. AWD selection was good move as was LHD.
Collins problems - ALP
ANZAC lack of war fighting capability necesitating an upgrade of a 'new' platform - ALP
Commitment to 2 extra FFG instead of AWD (effectivley delaying the project) - ALP
Seasprite selection - ALP (all the conservative did was ratify their selctin)
Run down of war stocks - ALP
Decimation of FAA and Arman aviation fiasco - ALP
LPA purchase and consequent rebuild cost - ALP
River Class upgrade (what a waste of money and even then it was cut back) -ALP
In fact as a serving member during that time all we saw was cuts that beggared belief and money wasted on senseless work (Fiji crisis with the fleet wearing a rut in the ocean while Hawke did a war dance in Canberra - he certainly did not like beihng told we lack the capability as he was responsible for it).
it is not that we are anti ALP it is just that their record is really dreadful and they treat defence as a polcitical tool rather than commiting to it.
I'll second Old faithful's recollections of that period. Our company in 6 RAR about to deploy on RCB (which was then active service albeit with a greater risk of a drinking injury that operational injury). Took my platoon to Canungra for a brush up on Jungle skills for a week - stores requested - the usual. What was supplied? 5 blanks per man per day (and no blank link or pyrotechnics) and hot box meals out of a rover. And the platoon strength was only 1 and 17!
I pulled the pin after spending 95% of my time at a training group horse trading for vehicles, staff and equipment to run ARES courses. The only time we were told we could have all of the vehicles we had requested from the pool was just before I left. The only catch was that none of the vehicles were serviceable due to bald or defective tyres - If we could provide the tyres we could have the vehicles...Yeah, genius, millions of dollars of equipment grounded because some civil servant handn't signed the cheque to buy new tyres.
Like many during that period we got sick of ARA battalions only being out field 6 weeks per year, and the penny pinching. Many good people left.
I pulled the pin after spending 95% of my time at a training group horse trading for vehicles, staff and equipment to run ARES courses. The only time we were told we could have all of the vehicles we had requested from the pool was just before I left. The only catch was that none of the vehicles were serviceable due to bald or defective tyres - If we could provide the tyres we could have the vehicles...Yeah, genius, millions of dollars of equipment grounded because some civil servant handn't signed the cheque to buy new tyres.
Like many during that period we got sick of ARA battalions only being out field 6 weeks per year, and the penny pinching. Many good people left.
In 1987, 3RAR had a streangth like this (no joke)
A- Coy
B-Coy
Spt Coy (then known as sport, not support)
Admin Coy
BHQ
Charlie Coy became "Hagar Platoon"
D-Coy had a streangth of 3 and 3.
we worked in 5 man bricks, not 9 man sections.
We still had Vickers .303 MG,s in DFSW platoon.
We had short wheel base rovers with 106mm recoiless rifles.
we painted lots of rocks.
A- Coy
B-Coy
Spt Coy (then known as sport, not support)
Admin Coy
BHQ
Charlie Coy became "Hagar Platoon"
D-Coy had a streangth of 3 and 3.
we worked in 5 man bricks, not 9 man sections.
We still had Vickers .303 MG,s in DFSW platoon.
We had short wheel base rovers with 106mm recoiless rifles.
we painted lots of rocks.
Presuming that there would already be an understanding (and signed contract) between employer and employee not to divulge information of a sensitive (security) nature, the only assumption then is that you are being warned off leaking politically embarrassing information.....
Personally I found the reporting of an aus govt inquiry into the F-18G availability a little bland since it provided no background information on the actual likelihood of such an acquisition in the forseeable future given the current climate.
So, the aus govt has asked, so RAAF are interested...
It's easy to make inquiries, they cost very little, and reportage in the press makes it seem that the govt is doing something, when in fact they may very well have absolutely no intention of acquiring such platforms.
I'd be very surprised if the RAAF weren't interested in something like the F-18G.
pffft
rb
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Off the top of my head, most of the major defense purchases made for the RAAF and RAN since 1975 that i can think of have been made by the Liberals, and of those that have not, a lot of them have either cost more then projected or had other issues.
Of the RAF's current jets, the F/A 18's were ordered by the liberals, the Hawks were ordered by Howard, the F-111's and the original C130's were ordered by Menzies (nationals), the C17's by the Liberals, the F18E/F's have been ordered by the liberals.
In the case of the RAN, the only assets ordered in recent times by the Labor party were the kanimbla and manoora, the ANZACs (without half their gear), the last two OHP's which could debatably be called obsolete on entry to service, the collins class which while excellent now took years to get right, not to mention the sea sprite choppers. The LHD's, Hobart's and Armidale's were all ordered by Howard.
Can't comment on the army, but old faithful and marc have painted a scary picture.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I think it's a pretty fair "2 way" street on this board. The Liberals have been soundly criticised on their project failures. You seem to think Labor should somehow be exempt though.
Start looking through the threads and you'll see plenty of criticism on the Seasprites, M113-UP, FFG-UP, Vigilaire and HF radio dramas and other projects which have been stuffed up and have all occurred during the Liberals "reign".
Neither political party can claim legitimate political points for their management of Defence in Australia.
Both have and continue to undervalue and under-finance defence and are perfectly happy to "get by" with the absolute bare minimum they can spend on defence.
The current Labor Government is taking things to the extreme in my opinion, expect defence to fund operational deployments out of it's peace-time budget as it has ended the supplementary funding Defence enjoyed under the Liberal Government.
The net result of this remains to be seen, but the capability acquisition budget and training and logistics budgets are the ones that are going to suffer as a result.
Remember the hollow force? It's on it's way back and Army will be reduced to training to fight 4x man Musorian or Kamarian teams because that's all their training allowance provides for...
If you think that's acceptable, you are a strange person my friend.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
This keeps getting more depressing every time i log on.
I hadn't realised they cut suplementary funding?!? Thank god they pulled out of Iraq. Lets just hope there are no other major oceania deployments untill this governmemnt gets the boot. But considering the cyclical nature of australian politics lately i'm not holding my breath.