German Army Development

[Waylander]

Well, world events can change pretty quickly and can sometimes be difficult to predict.

One scenario might be.... An Israeli/US attack on Iran causing pro-western goverments in the middle east and possibly Turkey to fall and be replaced by radical islamic regimes, possibly uniting against the west. Add to this a more militant Russia if events escalate in Georgia and Russia's reaction to an attack on Iran.

I'm just saying its a good idea to leave a little excess capacity, not too trim too far. Leave a little margin for error/unexpected events.

So what? Even a united middle east is not even going to come close to being able to threaten Europe conventionally.
With what?

And a new Russian threat is also not going to come out of the blue. Right now the Russians would have a hard time trying to deal with the european part of NATO only and this is not going to change in the near future.

What I am afraid of is that one day we might need to get back to cold war levels but our politicians are not willing to take the necessary steps.
If this is the case than some hundred old Leopard IIA4 are not going to save us anyway.
Remember that storing such equipment and keep it maintained is not cheap at all. I agree that we should have some Leopard IIA4s in storage. Atrittion is the key word here. But nowhere near to usefull reserve numbers.

As much as I love our heavy forces I don't think that we need that many of them.

 

[kato]

No need to train the cannon fodder, they only had an average survival time of 14 minutes anyway? ;-)

Yeah, it was in a NBC unit. Although a large proportion of people went on to other engineer forces, couple guys to maintenance, a handful to signals units and so on.

Of course every unit type focusses a bit differently during basic training. For us, definite focii (during basic!) were NBC stuff, medic support (iirc you wouldn't have to load multiple KrKw properly with wounded in regular basic training elsewhere), and dealing with other people in our operations: knowing who's where and why in relation to us; working alongside medics, engineers and infantry in the field to some extent; operating the usual signals stuff available to us. In addition to of course the usual training routine.
SGA training of course picked right up from there.

I remember lots of MG training too - NBC troops are heavy on em, and our NCOs were actually mourning the deletion of the 20mm AA guns the battalion used to have.

Considering we had "veterans" from the Somalia and Bosnia deployments, and later from Macedonia as well as a handful men delegated to us from the "Green" in our unit - it was pretty good training i guess.

How many NBC units remain in the new structure anyway? Two battalions, two "light" companies and the ABC/SE School iirc. Nothing compared to the five active and two inactive battalion we had in my days ;-)

 

[kato]

As much as I love our heavy forces I don't think that we need that many of them.

Agree. Sure, if you look at the 2003 equipment numbers, they're ... staggering. 1700 Leos, 1700 Marder, 4500 M113 and Fuchs, 700 PzH and M109, 160 MARS, about 1000 other AFVs ... oh, and let's not forget the 500 aircraft and 600 helos. Well, it's not like that's needed. Seriously.

One thing i just noticed.

BwPlan 2009 mentions 393 Leopard 2 planned in 2013. Is it possible that, instead of the Leo 2A5, they'll reconfigure the remaining 2A4 for urban combat?

 

[Waylander]

As I understand it NBC training in other units than NBC-Btls degraded heavily after the end of cold war.
At least we drove around in a big NBC suit with tracks...

During my basic training they exchanged one month of green traditional combat ops training for sort of enforced peacekeeping training.
Most of my instructors came right from a A-stan tour so they where pretty good at what they teached us.
Nevertheless we also never again trained anything NBC related during normal tank training apart from one theoretical classroom lesson about how we would work together with a decon unit.
And I think this is the case for most units in the Bundeswehr.

I am highly sceptical about a german combat brigade being able to operate in a NBC environment without additional training.
If an advancing btl would get slimed I wouldn't be surprised if it would fall apart completely while the higher ranks search for the correct procedure in their HdVs...

BTW, NBC training sucks anyways.

 

[Waylander]

Agree. Sure, if you look at the 2003 equipment numbers, they're ... staggering. 1700 Leos, 1700 Marder, 4500 M113 and Fuchs, 700 PzH and M109, 160 MARS, about 1000 other AFVs ... oh, and let's not forget the 500 aircraft and 600 helos. Well, it's not like that's needed. Seriously.

One thing i just noticed.

BwPlan 2009 mentions 393 Leopard 2 planned in 2013. Is it possible that, instead of the Leo 2A5, they'll reconfigure the remaining 2A4 for urban combat?

Mmmh, could be possible.
Might be alot easier to get a pool of PSOs which can be distributed to areas of operation and to training facilities (RÜZ Nord, GÜZ and RÜZI). This way our tank btls could remain traditional tank btls which would get additional training before deploying with some PSOs out of the pool. Would be alot more flexible as one could just put companies from every btl into training without having to put them into the only existing MOUT btl.

BTW, I think this was my wish for a possible PSO introduction. Sometimes I just regain a little bit of confidence...

 

[kato]

How many NBC units remain in the new structure anyway? Two battalions, two "light" companies and the ABC/SE School iirc.

Correcting myself:

Actually forgot that they made my old unit a "regiment" last year, by:
- reactivating the fourth combat coy (used to be inactive)
- organizationally merging a company from the NBC school (as fifth combat coy)
- adding the now usual basic training coy
- adding a "support coy" (... probably the elements pushed out from 1st coy to make "space" for more staff, already present in intermediate "NBC Brigade 100")
- putting an inactive battalion under the regimental command

1st PzDiv has a regular btl (with three combat coys), as the only remaining division with "proper" divisional troops.

Both intervention forces and stabilization forces have a "light coy" each (hooked in 1st Div and DLO respectively).

 

[Navor86]

Well, the KpFü-Wiesel 2 will probably only be used in the light units (e.g. paratroopers), as command vehicles for the heavy weapons companies.

The JFST-related Wiesel 2 stuff is in fact integrated with the mortars. They'd be assigned as the primary forward observers for the mortar platoon, but would additionally have the capability to observe for other assets (artillery, aircraft) as well (through software interfacing).

The remainder of the Heavy Weapons Company would depend on the type of battalion. Afaik:

• the two FsJg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW ?), three MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK ?), one mortar platoon and one JFST platoon;
• the two Jg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), one MK platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
• the three GebJg heavy companies currently have two AT platoons (4 Wiesel 1 TOW), two MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
• the PzGren heavy companies in their last incarnation had two mortar platoons (3 PzMrsr + 1 M113), one AT platoon (5 Jaguar 1), one JFST platoon (2 Marder); with the AT platoon removed first, and later the entire company struck from ToE.

But we have 4 Paratrooper Bn and so 4 Heavy Companies and 3 Heavy Companies for Jäger Units(2 in the Air Assault Rgt and 1 at 292)

 

[outsider]

Agree. Sure, if you look at the 2003 equipment numbers, they're ... staggering. 1700 Leos, 1700 Marder, 4500 M113 and Fuchs, 700 PzH and M109, 160 MARS, about 1000 other AFVs ... oh, and let's not forget the 500 aircraft and 600 helos. Well, it's not like that's needed. Seriously.

Not needed right now. But there may come a time when you would wish that you had kept them.... I do find it amazing that a country that could afford to keep and maintain 4500 mbt's, will soon only have 350.

 

[kato]

Caught me on the paratrooper battalions. ;-)

JgRgt 1 and JgBtl 292 each have one Heavy Company with fire support weapons.

The second "Heavy Company" in JgRgt 1 is a infantry company equipped with GTK Boxer (currently: Fuchs), ie equipped like the combat coys of JgBtl 292. The other infantry companies of JgRgt 1 are equipped like paratroopers (ie. with Mungo as APC) - hence "heavy" for the Boxer company.

 

[Waylander]

Not needed right now. But there may come a time when you would wish that you had kept them.... I do find it amazing that a country that could afford to keep and maintain 4500 mbt's, will soon only have 350.[/QUOTE<]

You haven't even tried to adress the points I made regarding current threats and threats of the near future.
Germany (or at least the western part) has been a frontier country during cold war.
As much as the FRG needed to have sich a strong wartime army and the GDR needed to have a strong wartime army it is now exactly vice versa.
We are part of NATO and part of EU defense.
I ask you to answer again who is going to threaten these alliances even if we take the US (and Canada) out of the game?

BTW, the foreign forces with which big parts of my male relatives would have worked with would have been the 3rd Shock Army instead of the 1st US Corps. So I am not angry about the changed situation...

 

[kato]

The Bundeswehr has ordered additional Dingo 2 vehicles, as well as new overhead weapon stations.

Total order:
- 50 Dingo 2 patrol vehicles
- 4 Dingo 2 GSI vehicles (+44 options)
- 230 light weapon stations FLW 100
- 190 heavy weapon stations FLW 200

GSI vehicles are for the organic combat damage repair and maintenance teams, with typically one team per combat company (one GSI vehicle). Dingos equip the GSI teams of medium forces; for heavy forces, a Boxer GTK variant is planned.

The FLW stations equip Dingos as well as Boxer GTK and all GFF vehicles; this batch was likely also ordered to equip the 198 Eagle IV (+474 options) recently ordered as GFF 2.

FLW 100: remote-controlled MG3/MG4 mount with integral optronics
FLW 200: remote-controlled MG3/M2HB/GMG mount with integral optronics

Delivery of the 54 vehicles planned until end of 2008.

 

[kato]

ES&D have two interesting articles of their current issue (in English) online:

- Future Equipment of the Bundeswehr – Chances and Perspectives
- Armament Projects of the Army

Second article in particular has interesting stuff, including a ton of background not covered in BwPlan or other publications.
Even though, as usual, the English used isn't really at it's best. And the paragraphing sucks. *cough*

Waylander, there's a section on the Leo in there. Apparently, not the full PSO package will be bought.

 

[Waylander]

Very interesting read. Thanks for the links!

I just had time to read the part about the Leopard upgrade and to scan the rest a little bit so far but I am defenitely going to read the rest.

I already expected the proposed urban combat kit for the Leo not to be the full PSO package.
But what they intend to procure covers most of the stuff I wanted to see. But one thing puzzles me. They are not talking about giving them some upgrade armor and this is something I thought they would do first.
At least the back needs some additional protection to make the Leopard better suited for urban ops and I would also like to see the frontal hull upgrade.

 

[kato]

Anyone aware of how the Leos are planned to be split between Intervention Forces and Stabilization Forces?

I think there should likely be enough Leo 2A6M within a few years to fully equip the 3 battalions in the EK, while the 3 battalions in the SK could get shafted with 2A5?

(and: will PzBrig 21 get a 2nd tank battalion? - otherwise there'd be 2 battalions "spares" in the active forces)

 

[eckherl]

@Kato or Waylander,

Can either of you tell me what type of side arm is carried by the Bundeswehr, also I have stumbled across a Walther P5 model 9mm, looking at the condition of the pistol you can tell that it has seen some use, not stating that it is in bad condition but you can see where the blueing is wearing off, this pistol is really hard to come across in the U.S and you can tell by the markings that it came straight from Germany. I was wondering is this a old duty sidearm that the Bundeswehr got rid of due to life cycle, I want to purchase it from a whole saler but I do not want a worn out pistol that I cannot enjoy killing paper with.

Advise please.

 

[kato]

The P5... never used by the Bundeswehr, several federal states issued it to their police forces in the early 80s.

Sidearms as coded:

P1 : slightly redone Walther P38 (BGS, Bw)
P2 : SIG P210-4 (BGS) or HK P2 flare pistol (Bw)
P3 : Astra 600/43 (BGS, Bw)
P4 : aluminium-frame Walther P38/P1 (BGS)
P5 : Walther P5 (police)
P6 : SIG P225 (police)
P7 : HK PSP/P7 (police; rare Bw use, Military Police)
P8 : HK USP (current Bw sidearm)
P9 : Walther P99 or Glock 17 (either way: police, BGS)
P10: HK USP Compact (few for prison guards)
P11: HK P11 underwater pistol (rare Bw use, SOF)
P12: modified HK USP Tactical (rare Bw use, SOF)

Bundeswehr issued sidearms: P1, P3, P7, P8, P11, P12.

Standard sidearms in the Bw were P1 and P8. The others, P7, P8 and P12 are only issued in marginal numbers; P3 were a few thousand leftover from WW2, replaced by P1 in the early 60s.
P1 is being retired (but still several 10,000 in stocks), P8 being introduced.

Number of code is by trials date, with the sole exception of the P11. P1/2/3 were leftovers from WW2, P4 a rebuild of the P1, P5/6/7 from trials issued by police searching for a new duty pistols in 1979, P8/9/10 were Bw and Police trials in the late 90s, P12 a later buy for SOF. The P11 doesn't fit the scheme as it was introduced in '76.

The Bundeswehr sees "life cycles" on pistols ermm... pretty long-lived. We had a number of P1 with x-ed out Wehrmacht stamps on the frame, for regular issue. In 2000. Afaik, no Bundeswehr P1 went to the free market. All either scrapped or gracefully donated to police forces in Afghanistan and Kosovo. A couple 10,000 probably in the same reserve depot as the quarter million G3 and the 50,000 "spare" G36.

Forgot, there've also been issued in the Bw:
- P21 (Walther PPK, precursor to P7 with military police for concealed carry)
- P22 (Walther PP, same)
- P52 (M1911A1, part of initial BGS/Bw issue, replaced by P1)
- Makarov PM (NVA takeover, used very shortly like e.g. also AK74)

 

[kato]

Oh, and the mix of designations (between Bw, BGS and police) is similar with other weapons.

e.g. SMGs:
MP1 - Beretta MP38/49 (BGS)
MP2 - Uzi (Bw)
MP3 - Walther MPL (police)
MP4 - Walther MPK (police)
MP5 - HK MP5 (Bw, police, BGS)
MP6 - doesn't exist
MP7 - HK MP7 (Bw)
Additionally: M1A1 (initial issue), MP74 (AK74, issued '90-93).

 

[eckherl]

Thanks Kato, as always I can count on you for some good information that I am looking for. For the price and thinking that it came from a police officer, meaning that hopefully it hasn`t seen extensive use, I have decided to take a gamble and purchase it.

 

[bkweber74]

Any sense for how firm the budget numbers are?

The budget does look nice; finally some commitment to driving procurement spend up (both now and int he out years). Whether we ever see the magical 30% level is another question. Does anyhow have any insight into how real these numebrs are likely to be over time? How stretched is the budget in general? How about the broader political will?

 

[Waylander]

Anyone aware of how the Leos are planned to be split between Intervention Forces and Stabilization Forces?

I think there should likely be enough Leo 2A6M within a few years to fully equip the 3 battalions in the EK, while the 3 battalions in the SK could get shafted with 2A5?

(and: will PzBrig 21 get a 2nd tank battalion? - otherwise there'd be 2 battalions "spares" in the active forces)

It is planned to give the A6M to the 3 EK btls while the SK btls get two btls of A5 and one of A6.

@bkweber74
Political will? I get the feeling it is getting better. But the movement into this direction is close to being uncountable...