German Army Development

[kato]

As there's no general thread on the German Army, creating one.

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From the Bundeswehrplan 2009, unsorted:

Development:
- second batch of Soldat im Einsatz equipment (downgraded IdZ) planned
- "Enhanced IdZ" procurement starting 2009
- MG3 successor to be developed as part of IdZ, 2011+ (!!!)
- ZEFF (IFF for ground systems): to be introduced 2016
- additional sensor platform for Fennek (MOSES): 2014+
- 10 Fennek JFST "initial" (current: 4), further 24 after 2015
- TEP90, new decon equipment, finally being introduced 2010
- new personal NBC defence gear being developed
- new EW, ELINT, E Recon, NBC Recon gear planned
- new ground surveillance radar system : 2012+, initial procurement only
- JFST version of Puma: 2015+ (if i read that right)

Not funded stuff:
- only 20 CH-53G to be upgraded for now, future upgrades not funded yet
- not enough Aladdin UAVs for planned Fennek JFST teams funded
- second batch of PSB2 bridging tanks: not funded
- air-mobile bridging equipment: not funded
- mobile/air-mobile close air defence: not funded
- MELLS dismounted launchers: not funded

Procurement, positive:
- Tiger procurement to be finished by 2013
- Puma procurement: 2010-2019, MechInf units to be equipped by 2013
- C-RAM: immediate procurement, in service planned 2009
- stationary close air defence: under development; procurement 2014+
- MELLS: launchers funded, initial procurement for missiles only
- Wiesel 2 Mortar: procurement funded for intervention forces, complete 2015
- WAPEB attack drone: 2013+
- 9 new basic training helos, 2009+ (civilian model, replacing Bo-105)

Some changed numbers
- GTK Boxer: now 791 (+30) until 2013
- Multi A3 FSA: now 839 (+600 !!) until 2016
- Dingo 2: now 196 (+30) until 2016
- Mungo: capped at 2014 - originally to 2016+ (bad performance)
- GTF/GFF number fixed down at 5,500 total until 2016

All in comparison to BwPlan 2008.

Leopard 2:
- new HE ammo from 2009
- 150 tanks to be equipped to A6M standard (should be all remaining A6?)
- same 150 tanks to get air conditioning and APU
- 50 tanks to be upgraded "for MOUT" (!) (PSO?)

 

[Navor86]

Well this looks nice but the total lack of Infantry and the lack of a political will make those procurements unecessary as they wont be used anyway

 

[DavidDCM]

kato,
do you have further informations on the LePzMrs Wiesel 2? (Armored mortar carrier for our english-speaking friends )

Not the tech specs, those can be found at the Rheinmetall page.

Is it known how many systems will be purchased and which units they will go to? From the Rheinmetall page I only understood that a fire platoon consists of 4 mortar carriers, but what other vehicles will be part of a platoon, a company, etc., and what are their specific tasks in the battle field?

Do you have a source for the Leopard 2-upgrades?

 

[kato]

Source is the BwPlan 2009.

Wiesel 2, as i understand it:

The Wiesel 2 mortar system is only used platoon-based. Two C2 vehicles (platoon command, fire control) plus four mortar carriers per platoon. Additionally, there are supposed to be ammo carriers (Wiesel 2 based, presumably 4 ?).
The heavy weapons company in which the platoon is placed apparently gets two JFST vehicles, plus a JFST Control System, all on Wiesel 2.
If i get it right, the Mechanised Battalions will use Puma as organic JFST in addition, other units will use Fennek JFST.

Some of these systems are apparently also planned alternatively based on Bv-206S, for certain units; in particular the C2 systems.

Since "the demand of the Intervention Forces will be satisfied by 2015" (or rather that's what's funded), i'm presuming something like 15-20 of the above platoons until then (ie about 200-250 vehicles funded?).
597 vehicles planned as part of the Mörserkampfsystem in total for the entire forces, including beyond 2016+.

 

[DavidDCM]

Thanks for the info!

I was a bit confused by the Rheinmetall page and was not completely sure which of all those vehicles in their nice advertising images actually belong to the mortar platoons. But basically it are 4 mortar carriers, the platoonleader (Zugtrupp) and the Fire control (Feuerleit) vehicle plus the supply vehicles. KpFü, JFST and JFSCT are only part of the greater network but not immediately and solely responsible for the mortars.

 

[Waylander]

Thanks alot for sharing it!
In the end it looks better than expected.

But am not sure if the number of planned upgraded CH-53G is enough.
I am really surprised that they plan to develop a MG3 successor so soon.
The new NBC gear is also finally going to be developed.
The Multi seems to be well liked.
IMHO ALADIN is a must have but maybe the planned numbers maybe enough for limited use.

And I am especially glad that the LePzMrs got funded along with the upgrades for the Leopard II and the planned introduction of the Puma.
Looks like they learned out of recent conflicts what kind of influence modern and well equipped mechanized forces have despite the new and modern love for light infantry forces.

I also, like you, still don't get how the Pumas and Fenneks are going to be used as JFSTs. Who is going to use what? In the end the Puma would make sense if attached to a mixed Pz or PzGren unit but where does the Fennek fit in? In the end the light forces get their Wiesel 2 IIRC.
Additional and more stealthy JFST capabilities due to the nature of the Fennek?

I can't wait to see final plans for Leopard II MOUT versions.

 

[kato]

Well, the KpFü-Wiesel 2 will probably only be used in the light units (e.g. paratroopers), as command vehicles for the heavy weapons companies.

The JFST-related Wiesel 2 stuff is in fact integrated with the mortars. They'd be assigned as the primary forward observers for the mortar platoon, but would additionally have the capability to observe for other assets (artillery, aircraft) as well (through software interfacing).

The remainder of the Heavy Weapons Company would depend on the type of battalion. Afaik:

• the two FsJg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW ?), three MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK ?), one mortar platoon and one JFST platoon;
• the two Jg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), one MK platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
• the three GebJg heavy companies currently have two AT platoons (4 Wiesel 1 TOW), two MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
• the PzGren heavy companies in their last incarnation had two mortar platoons (3 PzMrsr + 1 M113), one AT platoon (5 Jaguar 1), one JFST platoon (2 Marder); with the AT platoon removed first, and later the entire company struck from ToE.

 

[kato]

Thanks alot for sharing it!
The new NBC gear is also finally going to be developed.

Holding my breath there. TEP90 already "late" when i was in the NBC forces, and that's almost a decade ago. They're still using the TEP70 gear, mostly bought around 1978. However, with personal gear, it's somewhat urgent - as i understand it, some units in recent times have had to make do with former NVA equipment in that regard even.

I also, like you, still don't get how the Pumas and Fenneks are going to be used as JFSTs. Who is going to use what? In the end the Puma would make sense if attached to a mixed Pz or PzGren unit but where does the Fennek fit in? In the end the light forces get their Wiesel 2 IIRC.

Imho: Puma JFST for the VB-Trupps of the Pz/PzGren-Tr. Wiesel 2 JFST for the LLBrigs and JgRgt 1 (LL). There will only be some 34 Fennek JFST, and before 2015 only 10 vehicles.

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Edit: Disposition of JFST units:

Puma - "Heavy Forces" (PzGren)
Fennek - "Medium Forces" (JgBtl 292 etc)
Wiesel - "Light Forces" (LL)
Bv206 - "Mountain Forces" (GebJg)

 

[Waylander]

VB? Shouldn't it be AB (Artilleriebeobachter)? At least that's what they where called when I left service.

The status of personal NBC gear is really disgusting. Why should anybody carry this stuff with him at all? It is totally useless against anything else than pepperspray and just adds weight to your battlegear.

 

[kato]

VB = Vorgeschobener Beobachter (mortars). Same thing really - VB and AB will be fusioned in the JSFT context.

NBC gear... well, maybe i have a different... perspective? Although our gear wasn't the standard stuff of course, instead we had "real" protective gear. The Zodiac weighs "a bit" more than the standard overgarment, you'll sweat by the liters inside, and - in decon - you're supposed to actually work in Zodiac and mask for 6-8 hours with little relief.

As for the mask... umm, of course it works against more than pepperspray. Just depends on the filter you screw in. The standard minimal filters issued for training however pretty much only work against pepperspray and such, yeah.

"Real" filters would have been issued in wartime, we had a couple thousand in some semi-sealed storage shed for the units at our base. Same thing as the decon chemicals really (not issued in peacetime for training, mostly for environmental purposes), those were in the next three sheds ;-)

As for TEP90... as i understand it, the new gear will enable the remaining few NBC units to be almost as effective as the (more numerous) old units were, with considerably lower per-unit manpower. They're losing the offroad capability with TEP90 though.

Actually, i should find out what they're planning to use in the water transport platoons instead though. The E-Kfz of the combat companies were used for that as a secondary role quite often, to add to the small units in the staff coy (and that's a role not to be underestimated - it's the primary role of NBC forces in deployments really). Somehow i don't believe they'll buy a armored truck with a large tank on a semitrailer just to "fit in".

New NBC recon gear... that's what i find interesting. They probably mean the upgrade for the ABCSpürFuchs recently bought from Rheinmetall, for all remaining Fuchs. Really time for it too. Afaik, they still use the same gear there our recon platoons used, ie. primarily a racked 80186-based computer in the Fuchs. 16-bit power :lol:

 

[Waylander]

I know that the mortar guys named them VB, I was just confused by using VB also for the heavy guys. Just details...

As for the standard NCB gear.
I know that there are wartime filters but the problem is the mask itself. We had dozens of masks where the rubber just disintegrated or were the holding ropes (I have no idea what it is in english, Halteriemen?) broke or one were not able to tighten them up.
I don't want to start with the rubber poncho...

 

[outsider]

Wikipedia refers to the Leopard 2A4 being phased out. Does this mean they will be disposed of? And if so wouldn't this leave the German Army with too few tanks in a crisis?

 

[kato]

Maybe your Versorgungsfeldwebel should have asked some depots?

There's around a quarter million masks in storage right now, about as many as there are G3A3 rifles, or other "personal gear", storaged for similar reserve purposes.
I think my mask, when i was issued it, was something like 3 or 4 years old and in perfect condition. Had to wait 3 months for the optical correction insert though... (and never used it)

The poncho is only used in connection with the overgarment to protect it superficially against rain for a limited time. No other purpose for it in a NBC context. Most units have replaced the Bw Poncho with the NVA counterpart btw.

 

[kato]

Wikipedia refers to the Leopard 2A4 being phased out. Does this mean they will be disposed of? And if so wouldn't this leave the German Army with too few tanks in a crisis?

The only remaining Leopard 2 A4 to my knowledge are some 50 tanks used for training in the GÜZ/RÜZ centers.
Other than that, there are currently about 125 A5, 150 A6 and 75 A6M, which will be retained. Probably in the future to come to something like:
- 88 A5 (two battalions)
- 44 A5 PSO (or whatever the MOUT config will be called; one battalion)
- 225 A6M (five battalions).

Would be interesting if there'll be "pure" battalions, or whether there'll be e.g. 3 battalions equipped with two A5 companies and one PSO company.

There are no "reserve tanks" under the current structure (and the one before it, and the future target structure).
There are probably around 500 Leopard 2A4 somewhere in depots still waiting to be sold, as well as around 800 remaining Leopard 1A5 likely to be scrapped sometime in the next 5-10 years. [numbers for that my estimate]

Most of the budget for scrapping during that period has been reassigned to destroy mines and cluster munitions though, so maybe the stock numbers will stay at a couple hundred for a while still?

 

[outsider]

The only remaining Leopard 2 A4 to my knowledge are some 50 tanks used for training in the GÜZ/RÜZ centers.
Other than that, there are currently about 125 A5, 150 A6 and 75 A6M, which will be retained. Probably in the future to come to something like:
- 88 A5 (two battalions)
- 44 A5 PSO (or whatever the MOUT config will be called; one battalion)
- 225 A6M (five battalions).

Would be interesting if there'll be "pure" battalions, or whether there'll be e.g. 3 battalions equipped with two A5 companies and one PSO company.

There are no "reserve tanks" under the current structure (and the one before it, and the future target structure).
There are probably around 500 Leopard 2A4 somewhere in depots still waiting to be sold, as well as around 800 remaining Leopard 1A5 likely to be scrapped sometime in the next 5-10 years.
Most of the budget for scrapping during that period has been reassigned to destroy mines and cluster munitions though, so maybe the stock numbers will stay at a couple hundred for a while still?

350 Tanks - That sounds like WAY too few tanks to me, once the 2A4's and 1A5's are disposed of, leaving no reserves. I hope this tendency of European nations to downsize their armed forces (disarm) doesn't end in tears, in a crisis.

Unfortunately, it seems that NATO expansion is used as an excuse for many countries to disarm, and dispose of their assets. If everybody disarms how much use is NATO going to be in a crisis?

 

[Waylander]

Maybe your Versorgungsfeldwebel should have asked some depots?

There's around a quarter million masks in storage right now, about as many as there are G3A3 rifles, or other "personal gear", storaged for similar reserve purposes.
I think my mask, when i was issued it, was something like 3 or 4 years old and in perfect condition. Had to wait 3 months for the optical correction insert though... (and never used it)

The poncho is only used in connection with the overgarment to protect it superficially against rain for a limited time. No other purpose for it in a NBC context. Most units have replaced the Bw Poncho with the NVA counterpart btw.

It's not as if we hadn't multiple mask exchanges...
Maybe just bad luck in our unit.
And using the poncho is not only trained in connection with the overgarment. And while the overgarment is said to be issued if needed training time with it is near to zero.

 

[Waylander]

There are several thousand first line MBTs in active NATO service and alot of second line ones.

Tell me, who is able to threaten NATO conventionally even if one excludes the USA?

 

[kato]

And while the overgarment is said to be issued if needed training time with it is near to zero.

Seriously? I probably had like ten to fifteen days of training sessions with the overgarment during Basic Training, worked in with the rest of Basic.

Those included training for basic suiting up/down, full "speed suiting" (timed), fully suited NBC marches, manual NBC recon, manual decon of contaminated squadmembers, alert post in full NBC gear, exertion under full NBC protection (such as multiple HiBa runs, always fun) etc pp. And a lot of that in the Recruit Exam too.

Also had one issued for like six weeks during Basic Training, had to trade it in for the Zodiac afterwards (which i had to use in at least 25 sessions).
We had over 50 spare overgarments for training (ie slightly damaged or otherwise not tight) still stocked in the basement beyond our issued ~120.

Our recon guys were issued overgarments for their entire time, and also did training in them - though that's understable : NBC recon, in NBC-protected Fuchs = mandatory BAS 3.

edit:
Actually, now that i think back to it... I think the Luftwaffe guys thought we were crazy when we once visited their base with the full company to test out their brand-new AGSHP simulator... and while waiting went out to their obstacle course - for one hour at a time, in full NBC gear, with blindfolded disassembling and reassembling of our weapons inbetween runs, while not dropping a single weapon part to the ground. Timed.
Was actually sort of fun even.

 

[outsider]

There are several thousand first line MBTs in active NATO service and alot of second line ones.

Tell me, who is able to threaten NATO conventionally even if one excludes the USA?

Well, world events can change pretty quickly and can sometimes be difficult to predict.

One scenario might be.... An Israeli/US attack on Iran causing pro-western goverments in the middle east and possibly Turkey to fall and be replaced by radical islamic regimes, possibly uniting against the west. Add to this a more militant Russia if events escalate in Georgia and Russia's reaction to an attack on Iran.

I'm just saying its a good idea to leave a little excess capacity, not too trim too far. Leave a little margin for error/unexpected events.

 

[Waylander]

@Kato
Let me guess your basic training also happened to be in a NBC unit?
Usually training time for nbc gear is much less in other units during basic training (and near to zero after basic training). A normal recruit might get to see an overgarment just once (and with see I mean just see) during his basic training while the rest is done with the basic stuff (mask, poncho, gloves).
And overgarments are usually not issued during normal peacetime duty.

Might be interesting to ask someone out of the combat units when he had his last real training under NBC threat conditions...