the problem is their shipyards. Look at how much trouble they have in getting ships built these days. They just don't have the good project management needed to keep projects on time and on schedule.
Russian Navy Head Calls for 5-6 Aircraft Carriers
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I highly doubt russia economy moving slowly than china. looks more difference in how measurement is done. and resource base growth is not entirel true. as russia has access to far more resources in near board which china has to import from far places.
Japan had $592B in free money.
China still cannot produce SSK/SSN/SSBN at same rate as Russia do for domestic and export and other deep vessel technologies.
And there is floating nuke reactor/70k nuke icebreakers.
China is more ahead in simplified commerical ship building but that work Russia is doing with koreans.
this gues estimates. Russia has far more upside potenatial than China. Just in food alone and subsoil strength for higher yield that has been exploited in other food producing countrile like US. China like Australlia is facing drought in many regions. they would have to import food and water at certain point.
so affordability of Carrier is not an issue.
China's economy is expanding faster, that's a fact. It's not changing any time soon.
don't make ignorant comments like this. China easily builds submarines at a faster rate than then Russians do right now. In every area of shipbuilding, China is ahead of Russia. It's not really comparable.
regardless of what you want to believe, China has a larger economy 3.3 to 1.3 trillion. It is expanding faster, so the gap is just going to get larger. In terms of exports, Russia's main export by far is energy. Whereas, China is expanding hardware/machinery/manufactured good everywhere. And the economic strength is reflected in the military budget, the shipbuilding programs and such. Why don't you just look at which ships the Russians have built recently for themselves. Does it look like they can actually afford that many carriers?
ur airline traffic is falling down. Russia is the fastet growing the world in most categories of personal consuption. average transaction price of car is $18k with 4 million. which is higher than Japan/Germany in quantitiy.
Even in 90s and early 21st century Russia easily exported 20 diesel submarines. and that was pretty low period for Russia ship building. Now with money and automation if it is part of bugdget strategy. they can neary doubled/tripled that production rate. and these subs are of much higher qualilty. with in next 2 years. 3 Amur class diesel/ 3 SSBN/3 SSN r joining Ruaf navy. and these r in addition to export models.
Russian economy is much higher than official statistics published. just look at salary level. official gov salary level is $800 per month but even illegal construciton worker from central asia now makes $1000 per month . Taxi driver and train driver r much higher than this.
there are millions of them. and when u manufacture goods u import technical kow how and raw material to make them. so it is not that difference that should be included in GDP not the whole product.
It is ridiculous to compare Russia with China. One could, with a good sense, compare USSR to then really Communist China during 1980's, but the hard fact is that Russia has just 1/10th in population, for starters, compared with China. How many world-class universities Russia has compared to PRC? How much manufactured products? How much basic science publications?
The list is endless and the end result is that it is about as believable to compare USA with South Korea and say that South Korea is superior in all aspects.
Russia should be compared to medium powers like Japan, UK, France, Italy and Germany. I've been to each during last five years and I say that even Moscow and St.Petersburg are really not comparable to state of living and state of general efficiency visible overall in other countries.
That is not believable at all. Besides, military is a federal business. If the federal government cannot even produce good statistics how can it manage to deliver decent military power?
Personally I don't understand the reason why Putin-Medvedev adminstration is trying to promote a not believable image of Russian military might when cold facts tell otherwise. While Russian soldiers are brave and engineers are clever, the way things are going right now their efforts are going down to sewer.
World Class universities just does not depend on only Management and social science degrees. What Russia can develop and bult for itself is much beyond what China can do with all foreign intellecutal help and money.
South korea is certainly superior to US in certain ascpects like Ship building, Autos, consumer electronics (think over it where South Korean got electronics research with all the complex alogrithms, articficial intelligence, optics tech). but Russia is much bigger country with unlimited Resources. It can compete in wide variety of areas which are not profitable like Space and Arctic exploration. extraction, nuclear technologies.
All these countries are debt ridden countries. with no fiscal space to spend money on projects or foreign acquisitions on scale of Russia. Moscow/St Petersburg are in world top 10 expensive cities. That are couple of years in a row because People can afford to pay the price.
they many not want to publish real statics for certain reasons just like they dont want to do alot things which they can do.
Cold facts?. Military is not transparent business. Just Strategic bomber flights are at the same level as coldwar level thats according to Norway. So atleast momentum has been built for training and Rec. Same is true for space military satellites. Stratigic submarines patrols, Exercise with aircraft carrier, Billistic missile testing etc.
they are certainly making progress in many strategic areas. I havent seen supersonic missile tech at export oriented tri-service Brahmos with China decade later now. large civillain/transport aircraft are another area.
They have still way to go in many areas of high end research.
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- #169
No. It's not because people can afford to pay, it's because of runaway inflation. That's what happens when you throw money into the economy on large scale projects. In the short term prices change faster then production. As a result most of Russia's economic growth is inflation.
How many combat patrols have Russian nuclear subs been on in the last few years? Now compare that to say 1986
China is lagging in a lot of important areas of development, but that won't stay that way for long. Most importantly the Chinese military is in the middle of a downsizing coupled with a re-armament. Once the dust settles things will look very different for China.
This does not change the fact of Mercer global living index survey as they are using same standards accross the continents. no gov manipulation.
Every country has inflation problem. Infact it is more pronounced in Asia/Developed world but that are not acknowleging the full extent by citing core inflation. striping out food/energy. Russia alteast has wage growth for compensation.
Soviet Union has much larger navy in quanity wise so patrol will be more but it does not mean individal training per vessel is more.Now ships has better automation, survellance technologies along with range of missiles and there is growing role of simulators for training.How many combat patrols have Russian nuclear subs been on in the last few years? Now compare that to say 1986
u dont need that quanitiy of navy to project power at same level.
They havent catch in alot of areas despite trying and throughing alot of money on it. In Aviation/Space/Semiconductros it is nearly impossilbe say relative to automotive/Ship building. I am just giving u certain example. it is not easy just by money to catch some one.
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- #171
The wage compensation is part of what's driving inflation. You can't just unilaterally increase salaries if they're not accompanied by a rise in productivity. It puts more money on the market with the same amount of products. Some of that money ends up invested in production, but most of it turns into inflation. The Stabfond existed to prevent inflation by taking extra money out of the economy.
That's a nice generalization. But most Russian Navy nuclear subs had 0 cobmat patrols last year. When your average sub goes on deterrence patrol less then once a year (compare that to the US) something is very very wrong.
Time will tell.
Every country has inflation beleive me but they dont have wage growth in real term.s Price per litre of gas is twice in London than Moscow. how these consumers are coping with it interms of all transporation supply chain?. and they have almost zero wage growth. Country like China/SKorea is not behind and they still greatly subsidize energy through fiscal policies.
u need years of training build infrascturcture along parts supply chain for ships for global presence. which is entirely possible now. No other Navy beside US navy can do at so many different places at same time.
where do you think China is exporting most of its cars to? Russia.
As for the stuff on Airlines, what's the big deal? They had a huge price hike recently because of the jump in energy prices. That, alone with the introduction of high speed rail reduces airline passengers.
do you even know how many submarines China build on an yearly basis? Right now, PLAN has the world's fastest naval building program. In terms of the quality and finishing, the ships that we build are better than the ones we bought (Sovs and Kilos). That's why we have to pretty much send the Kilos into repairs all the time.
that's the case in most developing countries.
yes, GDP does subtract that. That's why China had a trading deficit with resource rich countries for the longest time, but had a huge trading surplus against US/EU.
you clearly see and know very little about Chinese defense industry.
Russia can afford cars in such mass number because there is incomes to support it.
Prices have also risens in Russian but airline passenger traffic hasnt fallen. infact it increase. It just income levels are increaseing much higher than inflation. Ur Railway system is stilll smaller than Russia.
i dont know how many submarines Chinaare bulding per year. All i know Russia has exported/modernized huge number of submarines built with obsolete Soviet infrastructure. When they modernize there shipyards with computerize design methods. quality and quantity will be at very different level. where u get information Kilo is in repair all the time? Kilos are in alot of navies for 2 decades now. and they still get modernized as the have life left inthem.
Most developing countries cannot afford 4 million cars per year with avg transaction price of $18K.
US/EU can afford products so they buy more. it has nothing to do with resource rich countries or not.
I have seen pix of Chinese defense products and that slow launch schedule of space program.
After this year budget Russia space porgram is in different gear. it will transfer most of commerical space launches to French guyana/Kazakhistan and leaving Russian launch facilities for military satellites. I am expecting huge increase.
According to most rankings, just Moscow and St.Petersburg Universities are among top 500 universities in the world, in rankings which are based on accomplishments on natural sciences, engineering and medical fields.
Russian student I've met in the West are smart, gifted and hard-working. They just complain they cannot fulfill their expectations in any reasonable way in Russia of today.
Without doubt South Korea is in some technological fields superior to US, and Russia has or had some key technological fields where Russian technology is good. Nevertheless, you seem to be losing your sense of proportion. A medium power cannot accomplish technological superiority in all fields, certainly not a medium power in which much of housekeeping duties remain to be done. That's why other medium powers like Germany or Japan, are pooling up resources.
While the mentioned countries have been downsizing their militaries (Japan as exception) the military burden is not overwhelming at all for them. Real aircraft, submarines and ships have been delivered for said countries. They all have forces which are operational, not just claiming to be operational.
No, it's a sign of a state machinery not working.
How many exercises Japan has had in past ten years and how many foreign deployments? How much global flight operations UK has been making without much noise, such as Nimrod operations over Afghanistan? How many patrols French SSBN's have been making and how many succesful test firings?
For as long as Russia tries to pretend to be a superpower it's military efforts will fail. For France and UK the tough call was Suez, it remains to be seen what will it be for Russia.
how many Universities Japan/SK had in top 500?. Just compare Nobel prize winners that Russian academy science alone has won. there is not even competition. This thing is bigger than what is at CERN Switzerland.
Those student may not get admission in area of there choice but it does not mean Universities are bad or system of education is wrong. Just different measurement scales. some one has just money so they want to enjoy different environmnets.
and from where did SK learn all those semiconductor knowledge?research.samsung.ru
I think ur seriously mistaken by putting Germany and Japan in same category. Germany is certainly not a medium level power when it comes to technology. It has $1.3T of exports most of it is very high end machinery that even US/Japan/France combined cannot match. thats why most of big contracts going to German firms in Russia.
these countries dont have fiscal space to enhance military budget. if they want to keep standard of living without budget busting they have downsize.
there certainly not operational. A country a size of UK can harldy afford 20K troops around the world in harsh condition at sametime. Russia alone has this many in Tajikistan alone and has huge space tracking station there at roof of the world.
I am not even going into other 23 foreign bases that Russia maintains. So how u say medium size power UK is the same as Superpower Russia.
Nope it is to create confusion. Just like no one knows for sure how much oil/gas reserves in Saudi/Russia are. certain things are not for disclosure.
Russia has permanent bases in 6 to 8 countries and has extensive military technical cooperation with alot of countries where it sells its weopons. It provides training and support services in very wide scale.
Russia is superpower with economy not depended on any one else and with power projection capability across the world with Strategic bombers, tankers, satellites and transports. UK/France are not same level. they can hardly sustain any conflict at far away place. Russian Strategic aviaiton has between 250 to 500 IL-76 and 22 An-124 for fast airlift always available to any corner of the world. these are in addition to large transport firms like Volga Denpr/Polyt
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- #177
The US has bases in what, 120 countries? ?That's force projection. Most of Russia's bases are in the FSU and former Cold War allies like the Naval base in Vietnam or the repair base in Tartarus, Syria.
Except Europe and China to buy our gas and oil. And third world regimes to buy our weapons and give us international leverage on the oil and gas markets.
Except that they are. Russia is not. Afghan and Iraq are examples, but there are others.
But Russia doesn't have the bases and global logistical infrastructure to be able to deliver it's troops around the world. Having the planes is no good if you don't have the bases for them to fly to. Not to mention lack of a true blue water Navy. Come on. The little Mediterranean cruise of the Kuznetsov was lauded as a huge success. And it was. The rotting Russian Navy was actually getting somewhere. But that's not even real force projection, just a little international exercise. You're way off.
have u look at size of Russia and Kazakhistan alone. Russia does not need basis at every place as itself is giant aircraft carrier to project power from arctic to antartica.
Russia gas is for every one. and it extends to Africa/Middleast/East Asia.
They r in Afghanistan and Irak because Russia hasnt oppose them in same way Soviet Union was opposed by West in Afghanistan. Russia is simply not playing hard ball on same level. think about iran/irak/NK.
They are trying to solve problems in civilized way.
I already told. they dont need foreign bases at same level as US. First all natural resources and transportation links are at home and have good relationship with third world.
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- #180
That's crap. For Russia to deliver and airstrike in Kenya requires a huge effort of either delivering the Admiral Kuznetsov to the coast of Africa or to somehow get overflight rights and at least temporary basing in one of Kenya's neighbors. The USA just has to grab the nearest CVBG and do it. That's force projection.
Sure. Until the current fields run out, as new ones are certainly not being developed anywhere near fast enough.
That's more crap. I was citing those things as an example of force projection. Keep the discussion on topic. Russia can't boast any similar force projection capabilities. You don't see Russian Naval bases in Cuba or Angola. And even the Indian Ocean base is tiny (as is the Tartarus base).
Excellent. But that doesn't prove your point. You claimed Russia had global force projection capabilities. It does not (outside of strategic bombers and ICBMs).
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