Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I thought that the VLS Seawolf had a range of 10km.
The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
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overlander
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Somebody could explain why i have heard many times that hms ocean is in a poor state, is this possible for a ship with just 10 years in service ??
I think the problem is that it was built on the cheap. it only has a service life of 18 years so its around half way through its life already.
overlander
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And i Think at the moment there are no plans to replace it.
It has had a quite a hard life it sea trails were cut short because of a hurricane. this Mid Life SLEP will help it lots as this is its 1st long amount of yard time since it was built
Super Nimrod
New Member
The refit is taking a year and costing £30m. The press releases from the MOD (links below) concentrate on accomodation, the kitchens and support for the Apache helicopters as being the priorities. Although it does mention some engine work so hopefully they will be doing something to improve her 18 knot top speed which regularly gets mentioned as being a little too slow. They want her to last another 15 years.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/HmsOceanInLineForMajorRefit.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/HmsOceanInMajorDryDockRefit.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/HmsOceanInLineForMajorRefit.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/HmsOceanInMajorDryDockRefit.htm
spsun100001
New Member
Type 45 confirmed to stay at 6
According to this months warships magazine the government confirmed in parliament that the Type 45 programme would be halted at 6.
It also said that the Sea Dart SAM will be comissioned on HMS Southampton and HMS Exeter as a cost saving measure.
It was somewhat confused in it's language about the Astutes, suggesting that numbers would be cut to 7 boats but not making clear whether than was speculation or confirmation by the government.
I'm pretty sure that cut will be confirmed soon.
According to this months warships magazine the government confirmed in parliament that the Type 45 programme would be halted at 6.
It also said that the Sea Dart SAM will be comissioned on HMS Southampton and HMS Exeter as a cost saving measure.
It was somewhat confused in it's language about the Astutes, suggesting that numbers would be cut to 7 boats but not making clear whether than was speculation or confirmation by the government.
I'm pretty sure that cut will be confirmed soon.
overlander
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I think so, concerning to cuts this government is a number 1, yes they will built the 2 new carriers but with the cost of cutting the escort fleet to half.
As usual, grossly exaggerating. Half? When are you counting from? Certainly not from the current escort numbers.
overlander
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When labours enter in the government the escort force was 35, later in the SDR they call for a escort force of 32, later they cut to 25 but by now any replacements for the 4 type 22,s batch 3 have been announced and cutting the type 45,s to only 6 it means that in a few years the escort force will be 6 darings and 13 type 23,s so a total of 19 is this not nearly half compared when they enter in Downing Street ?? Of course now you will say that the darings are much more capable ships than type 42,s this is true but 1 ship can,t be in 2 places at the same time and unless they built soon a class of cheap frigates similar to the french floreal class, 19 escorts is a short number to maintain the sea lanes open in a country wich depends so much from sea shipping.
19 x 2 = 38 not 32
Your assertion that the replacements for the 22's would have been announced by now is also a little odd. The current planned out of service dates for the 22s are between 2015 and 2017. Ordering of replacements is tight admittedly but not out of the question.
WillS
in fact its mentioned in the MOD magazine
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/94C8CED8-76B8-42BD-AF50-4F4CAD9F29BD/0/desider_03_July08.pdf
it mentions it on page 8
I don't see the concern of the T22 the oldest B3 is Two year's older than the oldest T23. Cornwall was launched in 1985 Commissioned in 1988 while Norfolk[admittedly Norfolk has been sold and Argyll is the oldest T23 with 3 years difference]the oldest T23 was launched in 1987 and Commissioned in 1990. so the FSC would replaced them normally in the same process of the FSC. So there doesn't need to be a different program just 4 ships with increased C&C and flag equipment
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Yep.
"FUTURE SURFACE Combatant (FSC) – the replacement for the Royal Navy’s current frigates – is expected to be introduced earlier than originally planned.
The vessels are likely to be the most versatile surface combatants ever procured for the UK fleet. The FSC will replace Type 22 and Type 23 Frigates"
But Overlander never lets facts get in the way of an opportunity to talk down the Royal Navy.
Not only are the Type 45s better than the Type 42s, they will carry twice as many SAMs per ship. The new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers will carry twice as many aircraft, if not more. Their air capabilities, both in attack and defence, will be significantly better. There is no longer a need to provide a large number of ASW escorts.
The future Royal Navy will be a different fleet than the past Cold War one concentrating our power projection, not ASW. There are still plenty of escorts for an amphibious task force despite the number of amphibious ships. A huge task force would probably include the carriers and amphibious ships along with their escorts.
Of course, all of the escorts will still have ASW capabilities. An ASW focused fleet requires many more ships than a power projection fleet. As noted above, a large number of ASW corvettes could be built at a later time. Unfortunately, there isn't as much a need for such ships outside of EEZ patrols. Too many count the number of ships as if a number is etched in stone. It would be easier to build 40 ASW corvettes than 17 frigates, but 17 frigates have much more capabilities than 40 ASW corvettes.
The future Royal Navy will be a different fleet than the past Cold War one concentrating our power projection, not ASW. There are still plenty of escorts for an amphibious task force despite the number of amphibious ships. A huge task force would probably include the carriers and amphibious ships along with their escorts.
Of course, all of the escorts will still have ASW capabilities. An ASW focused fleet requires many more ships than a power projection fleet. As noted above, a large number of ASW corvettes could be built at a later time. Unfortunately, there isn't as much a need for such ships outside of EEZ patrols. Too many count the number of ships as if a number is etched in stone. It would be easier to build 40 ASW corvettes than 17 frigates, but 17 frigates have much more capabilities than 40 ASW corvettes.
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Why not start building ASW corvettes at a low rate now. I assume they would be relatively inexspensive compared to the Type 45 AND FSC and would help to boost hull numbers in the short term. It doesn't make any sense to me to wait until hull numbers have reached a low level before building an ASW corvette. Presumably they could be built concurrently with Type 45 and FSC or is UK ship building capacity too limited for that.
Just out of interest, does anyone know how much an ASW corvette is expected to cost? I'm thinking £100 - £150 million each, but thats just a guestimate.
If the ASW corvettes were built without any SAMs or SSMs, the lower number of 100 million pounds would be sufficient. Designed for the ASW ocean escort role, there isn't the same submarine threat today as there was during the Cold War. It seems the only reason to buy them is to increase the number of ships in the fleet, which in my opinion that threat does not exist.. So why build many? Maybe a few, but not many. There are more pressing needs for the Royal Navy. I wouldn't plan on building many until there is a serious threat of mid-ocean belligerent submarines.
I would rather have more balanced frigates to replace the Type 23s, than spend much on a threat that does not exist. That does not mean I wouldn't buy a few, say three to four ASW corvettes, and use them meanwhile as OPVs. In the future there will be a need to reduce crew numbers of the Type 23s replacements, which will most likely reflect how many ASW corvettes which can be built.
I would rather have more balanced frigates to replace the Type 23s, than spend much on a threat that does not exist. That does not mean I wouldn't buy a few, say three to four ASW corvettes, and use them meanwhile as OPVs. In the future there will be a need to reduce crew numbers of the Type 23s replacements, which will most likely reflect how many ASW corvettes which can be built.
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I like the idea of your £100M - £150M OPV/Corvette. I'm sure the "Shipbuilding partners of choice for the RN" would like the idea too.
Just 1 little problem...
The RN Factor...
They'll like the idea & the cost, but they'll want it to be able to carry out humanitarian support missions, while being able to carry 30 EMF & their kit, having the ability to perform Blue water SAR, and having the capability to provide force protection to the CBG, so it will need a missile system, with all weather capability & possibly some guns, with an ASW capability and EW / ESM operability, while being able to do 30Kts & cover 5,000 Nautical miles at 18Kts.
...In other words, everything that a T22 / T23 can do, & more. They'll want it to be a swing role, ship for all seasons, paying the cost of a mini, but expecting the quality & capability of a Rolls Royce.
The RN might get something that's a half-arsed idea of what they want, modified to take into account changes that have happened since the originbal design was concieved & approved, at double the original cost quoted above, 14 months later than they wanted it & not equipped do what they REALLY need it to do at the time they get it.
Some might think I'm exaggerating, or even trying to be sarcastic, but I'm not.
Until things are agreed about how the RN wants to proceed & the UK population & Govt "buy into" full scale financial support for all our Military forces, then it's all a pipe dream.
In 3-5 years time the world globally will be a different place, & unless we're prepared to deal with this, both in political & military policy then will the UK population understand that all these calls to bin the carriers & build more hospitals will leave us a 2nd world Nation, barely able to defend the 12 mile limit, rather than 200 miles EEZ's of all our principalities & protectorates...
SA
Just 1 little problem...
The RN Factor...
They'll like the idea & the cost, but they'll want it to be able to carry out humanitarian support missions, while being able to carry 30 EMF & their kit, having the ability to perform Blue water SAR, and having the capability to provide force protection to the CBG, so it will need a missile system, with all weather capability & possibly some guns, with an ASW capability and EW / ESM operability, while being able to do 30Kts & cover 5,000 Nautical miles at 18Kts.
...In other words, everything that a T22 / T23 can do, & more. They'll want it to be a swing role, ship for all seasons, paying the cost of a mini, but expecting the quality & capability of a Rolls Royce.
The RN might get something that's a half-arsed idea of what they want, modified to take into account changes that have happened since the originbal design was concieved & approved, at double the original cost quoted above, 14 months later than they wanted it & not equipped do what they REALLY need it to do at the time they get it.
Some might think I'm exaggerating, or even trying to be sarcastic, but I'm not.
Until things are agreed about how the RN wants to proceed & the UK population & Govt "buy into" full scale financial support for all our Military forces, then it's all a pipe dream.
In 3-5 years time the world globally will be a different place, & unless we're prepared to deal with this, both in political & military policy then will the UK population understand that all these calls to bin the carriers & build more hospitals will leave us a 2nd world Nation, barely able to defend the 12 mile limit, rather than 200 miles EEZ's of all our principalities & protectorates...
SA
The troubled American LCS program must be designed to your liking. While many in America complain of these ships as being under armed, they do fit a 57-mm gun, and RAM SAMs, along with hangar space for a ASW helicopter/s. The idea with the LCSs is to build a ship capable of mid-ocean ASW, along with better littoral capabilities, including mine hunting. Maybe the British should follow. Keep in mind the US Navy does not have any intentions of adding either Sea Sparrow or Evolved Sea Sparrow anti-air missile systems, nor anti-ship missile capability to these ships.
The intention is to build something less than a frigate for warfighting, but to increase the size of the fleet with a multi-role ship using mission modules, containers, to provide for ASW, mine hunting, and inshore patrol with a lesser draught. The US Navy has realized replacing FFG-7s is not their top priority, anyway as mid-ocean ASW escorts.
The intention is to build something less than a frigate for warfighting, but to increase the size of the fleet with a multi-role ship using mission modules, containers, to provide for ASW, mine hunting, and inshore patrol with a lesser draught. The US Navy has realized replacing FFG-7s is not their top priority, anyway as mid-ocean ASW escorts.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
Wasnt the problem with the LSC that the USN kept increasing requirements such as the damage control systems after the design had been finalised and construction of the prototypes begun?
The problem with the RN is not that the capabilities of the ships, but the numbers. The RN has been cutting commitments around the world for years as the numbers of ships decrease. What they need is a large OPV/Corvette that they can use to carry out these commitments.
Lets say a larger version of the new German corvettes. Lets say 2,500-3,000t. Give it the standard RN medium gun, bigger hanger capable of handling FLynx sized helo, space for MCM gear and ASW gear though possibly not fitted to all ships. Keep the RAM or a similar system (CAAM?) but drop the SSMs.
Since most fleets are having crew limitations as well, I think we need to replace the mine hunting and patrol ship fleet with a larger corvette sized multi-rolled vessel capable of ASW mid-ocean escorting as well. I am thinking in terms of corvettes as ASW styled OPVs, not FACs. Of course, if required, a FAC version could be included. For example, Italy would be more interested acquiring FACs than say the British. For the British, what is needed is a larger mine hunter suitable for ASW mid-ocean duties, not necessarily more larger, and more sophisticated frigates.