Attack on Iran, Possible!!

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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Part of what they may do is close the Strait of Hormuz. They threatened to do it if attacked and even before they threatened to do it there were alot defense analysts who said that they have the capability to close it. The IRGC's threat just confirmed their fears.
Again you've given no hard evidence of this capability. Closing the straights requires at least the ability to control the sea in the sea in the straights.

Who said Saudi Arabia would be involved at all? And what's "KSAF"?

Did you mean the RSAF (Royal Saudi Air Force)? They don't have anti-shipping capability.
Well whose oil tankers are they sinking? :)

And USAF doesn't have anti-shipping capability either. Just the USN and USMC.
USAF doesn't have strike capabilities against ships? What you mean the B-52's, and B-1's can't carry anti-ship missiles?

And I think for ships going through Strait of Hormuz that the biggest threat is from Iranian mines and anti-ship missiles.
So it's a matter of getting a decent size naval force to clean up the potential early war minefields.

And this isn't significant to you? Please go read about what Iran does in Iraq and their involvement there.
I know what they do. And it has yet to yield results. Iraqi casualties are decreasing, the Iraqi government is stabilizing.

You're the one who said the East is allying with Iran because it "hates" the US after I said it isn't! Why are you going around in circles?
Use as proxy =/= ally. It's pretty easy to distinguish between the two. Someone may be your ally, your proxy, both or neither.

Shall we not seeing as how the vast majority of Iran's anti-ship missiles are from China?:rolleyes:

Also, seeing as how China expects trade exchanges between them to hit $30 billion this year, I'd say that it would be wise to talk about their relations. Wouldn't you?

I said that I couldn't comment in hopes that some one with more knowledge about the issue would contribute to the discussion. Clearly, you are not that person.
I'll admit that much. I am not. Though the relationship is more financial then political in my humble opinion. I was offering to leave that part out of the discussion because I know little about it and can't debate with you. So I'll agree with your claim. :) Now I would be interested in a solid reply to my abovementioned points.
 

Chrom

New Member
Thats a good point Chrom, eventually when the U.S is done with their big adventure in the Middle East and we come home, Russia will again more than likely will start feeling the effects of terrorist attacks inside of Russia, alot of that funding for those attacks will come from major players in the Middle East, you do know that Iran hates Russia as a nation also.
I repeat, be very careful with it. Initially, a large part of support for ex. Chechen terrorists came from West directly. Even now, although direct financial and training support is abandoned by West, some indirect support is present in the from of giving "political refugee" status for many known terrorists, and allowing them to coordinate and guide terrorists attack from safety. This is also true for Arab terrorists fleeing from Israel and finding a new friendly home in ex. GB or Dutch.

Either way, while i'm agree what personally for ME (and for West in general) anti-west Islamic terrorists pose a threat, i'm still perfectly aware what my government also support bad guys in some other countries - like mentioned "freedom fighters" in Iran or Kosovo. So to achieve a stable peace, all sides should restrain from supporting such groups.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Just a simple warning!

If anyone tries to turn this thread into a "Religion Bashing" the thread will be locked and the person probably banned. Keep the discussions limited to Iran only.

Majority in Muslim world believes terrorists have no religion and who gave them the right over religion anyways? Hence forth no use of the term Islamic-terrorists or for that matter Christian, Jewish or Hindu terrorists - which I feel are right in the corner for future discussions.

I have received couple of complaints on this already.

& no reply to this message!
 

eaf-f16

New Member
Again you've given no hard evidence of this capability. Closing the straights requires at least the ability to control the sea in the sea in the straights.
They can't close the Strait (I didn't word my response right the first time). But they can greatly disrupt shipping for an extended period of time. Like I said before if just a few tankers were hit and people knew that for sure the Strait was mined, not alot of people are going to be willing to go through there.

Well whose oil tankers are they sinking? :)
Although this may seem unusual, the Saudi public has alot for support for Iran. They are held in high esteem for standing up to the US and Israel.

If the Saudi government chooses to involve itself in any type of "tanker war" in the Strait it is unnecessarily risking further unpopularity with its own people.

USAF doesn't have strike capabilities against ships? What you mean the B-52's, and B-1's can't carry anti-ship missiles?
Do you think that USAF is actually going to send B-1's and B-52's when the USN and USMC are perfectly capable of doing that with less important planes?

The only USAF asset that would be of real value to an attack over Iran is the F-15E (and not for anti-shipping).

So it's a matter of getting a decent size naval force to clean up the potential early war minefields.
This where it gets tricky.

"Closing Time: Assessing the Iranian Threat to the Strait of Hormuz"

Download and read the PDF in the web page above. It describes the significant challenges the USN might face during anti-mine operations.

It says that an optimistic estimate about how long that may last is around a month. So, at the very best the world is going to have to survive 28 days with a significant portion of Persian gulf oil (nearly 1/4 of world production) off of the market. And oil prices won't be likely to stabilize until a very long time the after the war.

I know what they do. And it has yet to yield results. Iraqi casualties are decreasing, the Iraqi government is stabilizing.
It has yet to yield results?

The very fact that you said that shows that you don't know what they do and are capable of in Iraq. The decrease in violence you're seeing couldn't have happened if Iran didn't want it to (remember all the US and Iraqi talks about the "security of Iraq?). Attack Iran and you are putting all of these gains at significant risk.

Also consider that a major portion of the Iraq Army is from the Badr Organization which is highly loyal to Iran.

Use as proxy =/= ally. It's pretty easy to distinguish between the two. Someone may be your ally, your proxy, both or neither.
Russia isn't using Iran as a proxy. Iran doesn't even like Russia nor does it trust Russia and the feeling is mutual. I explained the relationship between them before.

It has very little to do with countering US-influence and more to do with shoring up Russia's.

I'll admit that much. I am not. Though the relationship is more financial then political in my humble opinion. I was offering to leave that part out of the discussion because I know little about it and can't debate with you. So I'll agree with your claim. :) Now I would be interested in a solid reply to my abovementioned points.
You misunderstood my words. I didn't claim anything. I used the word "suspect" for a reason.

If you meant my "claim" about trade relations then here is the link straight from Iran's state media: Iran-China trade exchanges to hit $30b
 
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SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
They can't close the Strait (I didn't word my response right the first time). But they can greatly disrupt shipping for an extended period of time. Like I said before if just a few tankers were hit and people knew that for sure the Strait was mined, not alot of people are going to be willing to go through there.
I, however, believe the straight can be closed if Iran can utilize its mines, subs and midgets effectively. Don't think any Navy in the Gulf is capable of countering Iran when it comes to combat commitment and popular passion/popular support. Plus they lack submarines.

All Iran will require is to block the the line from Musandam Peninsula (North Oman) and its' (Iran's) Kuhestak region or Sirik. This will block the shipping lane of the Straight. Iranian Navy and air power will than establish its front lines at Jazira-e-Qeshm while Strategic Missile Fleet is already placed at the Greater & Lower Tunb Islands. Tunbs can also serve Naval refinforcement stations when the US (& allied troops) try to break the blockade. However, having said that I don't think its going to be easy for Iran. The blocade would be a temporary one. The interesting turn of events will take place if Gulf states pitch their navies against Iran while US tries to break in from the other side.

However, the attempt to break the blocade itself will bring about results favorable to Iran. No oil and trade ships will venture into the straight and oil prices will go sky high.

Considering the demographic setup and status-quo policies of Gulf states I don't think they will be willing to get their hands dirty. Majority of the population of the Guld states in the oil area and the sea of Gulf is Shiia which is inspired and influenced by Iran.


Although this may seem unusual, the Saudi public has alot for support for Iran. They are held in high esteem for standing up to the US and Israel.

If the Saudi government chooses to involve itself in any type of "tanker war" in the Strait it is unnecessarily risking further unpopularity with its own people.
Saudi oil rich provinces are also on the Gulf side and majority is Shiia. You knw what happens if anything goes wrong. There was an uprising in 1979-1980 as well. It was only suppressed because Iran was unable to utilize them.


Do you think that USAF is actually going to send B-1's and B-52's when the USN and USMC are perfectly capable of doing that with less important planes?
Again the question from where they fly in? Would Gulf states provide them the air basis or would they fly in from Diago Garcia? In either case such flights will create fears amongst Arab states and not just Iran.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
I have afeeling that Turkey & Jordan may easily grant access to its air bases for a strike on Iran. But Iran's cooperation with other Arab states & it's suppot among the people may cause even more problems in those 2 countrues.

From Afghanistan maybe ? IMO its a given that USA will be allowed to strike from there.

Thats as easy as it gets for USA IMO.

About naval cpabilities, I think the US navy will be in for a good fight. Iran has the ability to put a dent in their armor, if not completely defeat them.

The Airforce will have the easiest time though, Iran dosent seem to have anything to stop them bombing their targets.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
I have afeeling that Turkey & Jordan may easily grant access to its air bases for a strike on Iran. But Iran's cooperation with other Arab states & it's suppot among the people may cause even more problems in those 2 countrues.

From Afghanistan maybe ? IMO its a given that USA will be allowed to strike from there.

Thats as easy as it gets for USA IMO.
Turkey and Afghanistan won't let them do it. And they don't need it. Unlike Israel, the US has aircraft carriers.

About naval cpabilities, I think the US navy will be in for a good fight. Iran has the ability to put a dent in their armor, if not completely defeat them.
I doubt IRGC commanders are as confident (or as irrational and as illogical) as you are.

To make this clear, Iran will unequivocally lose in the conventional sense. This is fact. It's the effect that the conflict will have on oil prices and what Iran might do elsewhere that's going to hurt the US.

The Airforce will have the easiest time though, Iran dosent seem to have anything to stop them bombing their targets.
It's not going to be the US air force, it's probably going to be just the USN.

On a side note, this thread would greatly benefit if people didn't ask repetitive questions and questions that they could easily find answers to with a little research.
 

Eeshaan

New Member
I'm not trying to start a flame war or an anti-Iran or US debate here. I am not biased towards these countries. Talking from a neutral point of view here. I was just saying that although Iran wont be able to defeat USA, It does have the ability to strike at the USN, thereby being a threat to the US Navy ships & carriers that are in the vicinity.

This is a discussion on Iran being attacked. Lets not make this personal please.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
It's not going to be the US air force, it's probably going to be just the USN.
B-52s with Tomahawks out of UK; B-1Bs and B-2s out of Diego Garcia (and CONUS and Guam). The B-2 brings the earth penetrating ordnance.

Iran is totally overmatched in the conventional realm. They can harass shipping in the Hormuz enough for it to stay away due to difficulty for the shipping to get insurance. Ultimately I would say that convoying should be possible, but unlikely for the prev given reason.

Iran can cause trouble in Afghanistan and Iraq. How much? Well, the primary victims will be the Iraqis and Afghanis. US failure to protect them could count as an Iranian victory...

I don't think Hezbollah are going to react if Iran is attacked, they really can't do anything that matters and have to much to lose. Well, maybe they'll do some small action just to show themselves.

Edit: The idea about blocking the strait by sinking tankers in it... The Yanks know this can happen. ;)

Iran really doesn't have that many options in case of war.

That being said, I think an attack is very, very unlikely.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
eaf does your whole point of Iranian retaliation come to "they will spike the oil prices"? If so I agree. Any war in the Gulf will spike oil prices. Other then that, I see no solid evidence of Iranian superiority, which is what you claimed initially. Can they disrupt shipping? Sure. Simply by being there and making the voyage more risky. Even if they don't bloacked the straights. Can they stop it? No. What does it come down to? A war on Iran would leave Iran devastated, the region destabilized, and oil prices higher then ever.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
eaf does your whole point of Iranian retaliation come to "they will spike the oil prices"? If so I agree. Any war in the Gulf will spike oil prices. Other then that, I see no solid evidence of Iranian superiority, which is what you claimed initially. Can they disrupt shipping? Sure. Simply by being there and making the voyage more risky. Even if they don't bloacked the straights. Can they stop it? No. What does it come down to? A war on Iran would leave Iran devastated, the region destabilized, and oil prices higher then ever.
The point of closing the straight and the point of disrupting the shipping lane mean the same thing and the result is single: Price Hike. And that is what EAF probably means.

Iran is not militarily superior but the Gulf "is" its backyard and regardless of US superiority you cannot say they will go unharmed. They can and probably will win but the losses might turnout to be far greater than the desired goal. & never sideline Clausewitz' concept of Friction when it comes to the Gulf. Remember the operation by US to rescue US diplomats from Iran (Operation Desert Claw?).
 

eaf-f16

New Member
eaf does your whole point of Iranian retaliation come to "they will spike the oil prices"? If so I agree. Any war in the Gulf will spike oil prices. Other then that, I see no solid evidence of Iranian superiority, which is what you claimed initially. Can they disrupt shipping? Sure. Simply by being there and making the voyage more risky. Even if they don't bloacked the straights. Can they stop it? No. What does it come down to? A war on Iran would leave Iran devastated, the region destabilized, and oil prices higher then ever.
Honest to God, I claimed that Iran has superiority over the US military?

Please, can you show me where I said this?

I like how you said that bottom bit right there as if this wouldn't have any effect on the US. It shows me that you don't really know what you are talking about.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
B-52s with Tomahawks out of UK; B-1Bs and B-2s out of Diego Garcia (and CONUS and Guam). The B-2 brings the earth penetrating ordnance.
Why would they need B-52 with Tomahawks when USN missile cruisers can fire off Tomahawks from a very safe distance?

Iran is totally overmatched in the conventional realm. They can harass shipping in the Hormuz enough for it to stay away due to difficulty for the shipping to get insurance. Ultimately I would say that convoying should be possible, but unlikely for the prev given reason.
Pretty much everyone agrees with these points.

I said that Iran will lose with out doubt in the conventional sense, but apparently Feanor didn't see that.

Iran can cause trouble in Afghanistan and Iraq. How much? Well, the primary victims will be the Iraqis and Afghanis. US failure to protect them could count as an Iranian victory...
If Sepah Al-Quds was sent back into Iraq (apparently they left in 06-07) they can support and even conduct insurgent operations there that can be very discriminant.

Iran never supported the criminal gangs and death squads that went around killing civilians. They support a militia as whole and expect that their leader makes sure everybody plays by the rules. Of course, you can see the flaws in this.

Read this article. It explains the different "elements" in the Mahdi Army very well.

I don't think Hezbollah are going to react if Iran is attacked, they really can't do anything that matters and have to much to lose. Well, maybe they'll do some small action just to show themselves.
Hezbollah would committing political suicide if they retaliate for Iran.

Edit: The idea about blocking the strait by sinking tankers in it... The Yanks know this can happen. ;)

Iran really doesn't have that many options in case of war.

That being said, I think an attack is very, very unlikely.
I think so, too. But I think the attack is unlikely because of the reasons mentioned above about the strait and Iraq.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Honest to God, I claimed that Iran has superiority over the US military?

Please, can you show me where I said this?
When you said they can close the straights. :) You then backed out on that claim which why I said it's what you claimed initially.

I like how you said that bottom bit right there as if this wouldn't have any effect on the US. It shows me that you don't really know what you are talking about.
Just because I didn't mention the effect on the U.S. doesn't mean there wouldn't be any. Please read what I write and only what I write. My english is not as good as I would like it to be, and I make sure to try to be as precise as possible when saying something. When you assume something I didn't say, well you're probably misreading me. :)
 

eaf-f16

New Member
When you said they can close the straights. :) You then backed out on that claim which why I said it's what you claimed initially
"Backed out of that claim", huh?

I said I didn't word my response right. I literally messed up on a single word and you go crazy with this as if you've proven something.

If a conflict starts the strait will be effectively closed for at the at least 2 weeks with only de-mining assets being able (daring) to go through.

I admit when I am wrong but you seem to have trouble acknowledging when you are uninformed about something.

Just because I didn't mention the effect on the U.S. doesn't mean there wouldn't be any. Please read what I write and only what I write. My english is not as good as I would like it to be, and I make sure to try to be as precise as possible when saying something. When you assume something I didn't say, well you're probably misreading me. :)
Sorry, then. My mistake.

Also, if you would like to respond to me about something that isn't related to the topic then PM me. This thread is already riddled with off-topic clutter.
 

ROCK45

New Member
Iran capabilities

If the the Straights were closed for a while would Iran's oil get to market?

Could Iran replaced destroyed anti-ship launcher and the radar's needed to find targets with?

Does Iran produce a decent anti-ship mine? Do they have them built in great numbers? How would Iran deploy them in a effective manor if large number of ships not counting small attack craft were sunk or damage, or afraid to leave port? The USN alone might have 20 or 30 ships firing anti-ships missiles at every major ship Iran has, would it be a safe bet that 20 or 30 anti-ship/cruise missile per ship launched? How many ships could Iran's navy possibly have? This isn't even counting air assets which number in the hundreds as in more then 200, all throwing metal at targets. Add in a few other countries ships into the mixed as well.

Remember the operation by US to rescue US diplomats from Iran (Operation Desert Claw?).
This is a very old mission and very dated really compared to modern times the US is 50 times better at everything compared to this.

Some Iranian anti-ship missile would get through I think some are shot under 15 miles away and even at sub-sonic speeds missiles just cover the distance too fast. Shoot 20 at one ship from that range and some are bound to hit, I can't see all 20 missiles being shot down. On the flip side one can assume there are a lot of weapons pointing at the Iranians in the tighter parts of the Gulf as well it isn't just one sided.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
"Backed out of that claim", huh?

I said I didn't word my response right. I literally messed up on a single word and you go crazy with this as if you've proven something.

If a conflict starts the strait will be effectively closed for at the at least 2 weeks with only de-mining assets being able (daring) to go through.
And you think that's enough for Iran to consider itself safe? I don't think so. If I was Iran, I'd be scrambling to develop more IRBM's that can strike ships in the Gulf, and possibly even the oil fields themselves.

I admit when I am wrong but you seem to have trouble acknowledging when you are uninformed about something.
I have no trouble admitting ignorance to something I know nothing of. Example Sino-Iranian relations.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
And you think that's enough for Iran to consider itself safe? I don't think so. If I was Iran, I'd be scrambling to develop more IRBM's that can strike ships in the Gulf, and possibly even the oil fields themselves
Or they can just acquire a bunch of anti-ship missiles and launch them at short range to make them harder to intercept. Which is what they did and what they'll do if attacked.

Also, I've never heard of ballistics missiles accurately landing on moving ships before.

If the the Straights were closed for a while would Iran's oil get to market?

Could Iran replaced destroyed anti-ship launcher and the radar's needed to find targets with?
Iran doesn't really care. If it is going to deter its enemies then, for Iran, it's worth it.

Like Grand Danois previously mentioned Iran doesn't have many options so this is sure as hell going to be one of them.

And about the anti-ship launchers and their radars, they don't need to be able to replace most of them, those are going to be relatively hard to destroy once they're detected lunching anti-ship missiles.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Or they can just acquire a bunch of anti-ship missiles and launch them at short range to make them harder to intercept. Which is what they did and what they'll do if attacked.

Also, I've never heard of ballistics missiles accurately landing on moving ships before.
Oil fields. Oil fields. Oil fields.
 
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