Royal Saudi Navy capability and threats

[Feanor]

Bolheed your nice little speech on how we don't know what's behind the scenes is pretty and all, and may impress hippies at a "No War on Iran" convention. But seriously. Lets look at what you suggested in terms of the Iranian arms trade; 250 Super Flankers. India ordered a total of ~220, with 140 manufactured in India from knock down kits. Yet this giant order kept Russian factories in business for years, coupled with a handful of smaller orders. Chinese Flanker buys in the late 90's had the same effect. Yet you're suggesting a ~20 billion dollar fighter deal that went by in secret? And cite a ridiculous Jerusalem post article to support it?

Let me put it this way. Either you have no clue what you're talking about even remotely, or you're a hopeless Iranian fanboy desperate to find any evidence you can of Iranian superiority. You yourself quoted Bertrand Russell. Read his quote carefully and then read what you posted about Iranian fighter buys. I dissected one of the deals for you nicely just now. I think it would be easy enough to do the same with the rest. Finally in serious defense analysis, absence of information can be interpreted as well as, and somtimes better then, information. For example if Iran says it wants to buy SMT's from Russia and nothing follows from it, we can assume that no deal went down. On the other hand if we know Iraqi planes from the Gulf Wars ran to Iran and we have little further info, we can safely assume that the Iranians kept them, and are probably using some of them in the IrAF. Yet you seem to interpret absence of information in one way and one way only, in favor of Iran. That's a clear sign of bias.

 

[bolheed]

Just trying to oppose!

First you said that ballistic missiles are cheaper not me.I simply gave you a small comparison to show you that in the simplest form,an anti-ship missile is a lot cheaper than a ballistic missile.
You said they can build 15000 ballistic missile a year,but not have 6500 anti-ship missiles,not me man.
I used the comparison of Hezbollah to show you that the capability of production is their and told you that by israely figures,hizbollah has an enormous arsenal of rockets with ranges between 11 km to more than 300 km,so that was a comparison, one of too many,thus you cant take the writing out and leave the others.
No i m not delibaretly trying to do that,you guys keep arguing in a way that shows even to a dumb that you are only trying to oppose me,and you are failing.
you ask and i answer and you delibaretly or just out of little experiance ask questions that are very weak and show your incapability to ask proffessional questions.
You tell me what is a source that you consider acceptable,just tell me ,we will take the info if its from this ...... source and i'll make sure i give you info from your desired source.I think its fair enough.

Trust me i m not trying to get responses from you,i told you before these questions you ask are getting out too weak...I have a lot of Military analysing to do already and dont want to engage in these weak questions as i have said for the tenth time.

And mr.feanor i have told you that those were of example and i have listed the source so that i could take my hands out of it.So stop bringing it one every once and a while,the deal may have happend and may have not,try to analyse to figure that matter out,if you refuse to accept the source okay.

LOOK you dont know whats happening and you dont know what every country's benefit is,or were it lays so you cannot jude unknown facts,do you??
And for your information i have never felt bias to Iran,you guys seem to be bias to other sides,by arguing and arguing and NOT DICUSSING.

The Iranians are strong,and the U.S is even Stronger,a country that has military industry for more than 80 years,and thats enough but the Geographical situation of Iran is an advantage and you can build a Jet worth 160 million $,but you can also build an anti-aircraft missile worth 1 million $ and shoot it down,thats Russian Military,in one sides of it,and still they are building jets,but rather more focused on defence and its industry.

And mr.swerve i recomend that you watch some Iranian videos of the latest war games and see for your self what was the accuracy of the shahab 3 missile.

And i have never used words that insults anyone here,you were the ones who said things like (ridiculous and other things not me)so i m not ridiculing what you are saying and never do that.Its proffessional curtosy my friend.

Have a nice day.

 

[bolheed]

Yea and by the way,i hope you dont feel shameful because you have read some of the work of respectable men,older than me and you.
Anyhow i prefer if we chatted using msn,maybe this way we can deliver our thoughts in a direct way,better than this one,were you sometimes arent getting my point for several reasons...


If its okay to post the email here,here it is, [email protected].

Cheer up a little bit mates,and have a good day friends...

 

[Feanor]

Bolheed it comes down to this, a single CVBG will make a turkey shoot out of the IrAF. Their Navy will be blown out of the water in a few days of the air war. And that will be the end of the Iranian threat to oil shipments. It may cost some in casualties. A few US ships may be damaged, and one or two may even be sunk (whatever, it's irrelevant). The point is, that Iran will not be allowed to threaten global oil shipments. End of story. Do you have anything meaninful to add or do you have any solid ways to dispute this?

 

[al3ameed]

I'm not an expert, but the reputation the Naval forces have in Saudi is pretty low. But they do have some good kit. The French frigates in particular look impressive (I know they're deployed on the red sea).

 

[Super Nimrod]

Back to the Saudi's. Would they choose to duck out of any conflict or just operate in a defence mode only ?

 

[Feanor]

I would think neither. They should have little difficulty in establishing air superiority over the straight, and keeping it, until US steps in to help.

 

[swerve]

I would think neither. They should have little difficulty in establishing air superiority over the straight, and keeping it, until US steps in to help.

The Saudis alone should be able to do that easily, & with the other GCC countries has overwhelming superiority over Iran in the air, sufficient to wage an air offensive, if necessary.

 

[kato]

How many of those airframes are actually airworthy? How many can be crewed?
(because that's more of a problem for Saudi Arabia)

Out of the GCC, only Kuwait (40 F-18) and the UAE (80 F-16 + ~70 Mirage 2000-9) have viable airforces for such operations. An Kuwait probably has the same problems there as Saudi Arabia.

 

[swerve]

How many of those airframes are actually airworthy? How many can be crewed?
(because that's more of a problem for Saudi Arabia)

Out of the GCC, only Kuwait (40 F-18) and the UAE (80 F-16 + ~70 Mirage 2000-9) have viable airforces for such operations. An Kuwait probably has the same problems there as Saudi Arabia.

Airworthy? Probably almost all. Maintenance standards are high, from what I've heard. Crewing is a problem, & probably for the UAE most of all, but even so, their combined strength is far greater than Irans. They can easily match the numbers Iran can put in the air (could far surpass them, but for crew shortages), & have great advantages in aircraft & sensor quality. As long as their crews perform half decently, it should be no contest in the air.

Even the smaller air forces would be useful. Oman, for example, could patrol the eponymous gulf.

 

[al3ameed]

The impression I get is that the readiness of the squads in Dhahran is actually quite good.

 

[bolheed]

Thats what Air-Defences are for Mates.

Airsupiriority you say then.Well that will be true and dead certain but in a country with no freakin AIR-DEFENCES.Guys stop thinking that the Iranians are weak because theyare not.They have been preparing for long and they are watching the US close and steady and unfolded many of its weak points and they will use them.

Maneuovers are being held these days in the gulf,naval excersises with Aerial ballistic Missiles being tested,my advice to you,"WATCH THEM CLOSE MATES"

Now they are preparing and dont forget that their supplier of Air defence is Russia the mother of Missile air defence,so here's the deal,but try and analyse.

Air-Defences in Iran:

S-300 PMU (which you and me both know that it has been delivered to IRAN)

Hawk

SA-2 Guideline (which shot a U-2 in 1960 for the US)

SA-5 Gammon

SA-6 Gainful

The Notorious TOR-M1 (SA-15)

Shahab Thaqeb (Iranian Made)

Rapier

TigerCat

RBS-70

Igla (SA-16)

FiM-92 A stinger

Misagh-1/2

SA-7 Grail,SA-14

Now these are some of there AirDefenses excluding Guns which are Known to be effective when used in large quantities and at close range.

Now the Iranians know their weak spots also and thats why they prepare very accuratly there steps,and as Iranian offcials said:"if attacked,we will burn Telaviv and the US Naval Fleet"

And more they said:"our airspace is Intact"

So they know their strengths very well and know were it hurts the enemy.

Now you guys can take these matters in consideration and stop acting like ts a turkey shoot out as one fellow member said,because its not that way,andit will never be that way ever.Watch those Maneouvers closly and you will see what i mean,and dont forget those defences.

Well i guess this covers what Air-defence capablities they have,and more Home made missiles.

 

[bolheed]

Yea and there is the S-200 we dont want to forget that one do we?

 

[Grand Danois]

Yea and there is the S-200 we dont want to forget that one do we?

You didn't - you just didn't know its NATO codename is SA-5 GAMMON.

SA-5 Gammon

Did you find some non-photoshopped pics of Iranian S-300 or Sunburns to me?

Come on...

 

[swerve]

Ah, the Tigercat! Older than the fathers of the operators, or maybe the grandfathers. Do any of them still work? Did the Shah buy vast amounts of spares, or have factories been set up especially to make 1960s electrical components? Puts me in mind of those museums where industrial processes from the past are reproduced.

Replaced by the Rapier in the UK, from 1971. I should ask my stepfather about the capability of those first-generation Rapiers. He worked on the guidance system design, back in the 1960s. That was his first job after leaving university, & he retired in the last millennium. And the SA-2 - wow! A 1950s missile, with a guidance system so compromised by 1972 that the N. Vietnamese resorted to launching them in box barrages with simple proximity fuses, which is said to have actually shot down some B-52s flying straight and level along the same course as the previous day (the USAF paid the price of underestimating their adversaries there). I'm impressed. nfloorl:

 

[kato]

RBS-70
Igla (SA-16)
FiM-92 A stinger
Misagh-1/2
SA-7 Grail,SA-14

That's gotta be hell on training

excluding Guns which are Known to be effective when used in large quantities and at close range.

Oh yeah, i remember all that pretty AAA fire over Baghdad on CNN in 1991. Exactly how many aircraft did that shoot down?

Shahab Thaqeb (Iranian Made)

*cough* Iranian LRIP of the Chinese copy of a French missile *cough*

 

[Feanor]

Only a handful of modern Russian missiles are in Iranian hands. The rest are obsolete Cold War relics that belong in a museum. So lets look at your claims.

Air-Defences in Iran:

S-300 PMU (which you and me both know that it has been delivered to IRAN)

Until you provide solid enough evidence, we will leave this out of the discussion. Don't forget that the S-300 comes with a hefty price tag, and requires huge additional assets to be effective. Assets that Iran doesn't have.

Hawk

SA-2 Guideline (which shot a U-2 in 1960 for the US)

SA-5 Gammon

SA-6 Gainful

All outdated Cold War era garbage. It shot down a U-2, very impressive. In 1960. Wake up. It's 2008. Today it's obsolete.

The Notorious TOR-M1 (SA-15)

An excellent point air defense system. Of which a total of 29, think about it TWENTY-NINE!!! were purchased. That's not enough to even cover Tehran with suburbs thoroughly. Never mind that they need additional long range systems (the S-200 doesn't count) to do the real work.

Shahab Thaqeb (Iranian Made)

Rapier

TigerCat

RBS-70

More outdated Cold war Garbage. This time western. Very impressive. Open up a museum, and use the money to buy some real weapons.

Igla (SA-16)

FiM-92 A stinger

Misagh-1/2

SA-7 Grail,SA-14

And the list is topped off with a bunch of MANPADS. How you hope to turn this into anything other then an archaic 3rd world IADS is beyond me. Oh what kind of RLS stations do Iranian radar troops use? What kind of C3 nodes does this have? Not to mention lack of any fighters to use the AD role.

Now these are some of there AirDefenses excluding Guns which are Known to be effective when used in large quantities and at close range.

Yes we all love fireworks. Now back to defense matters.

Now the Iranians know their weak spots also and thats why they prepare very accuratly there steps,and as Iranian offcials said:"if attacked,we will burn Telaviv and the US Naval Fleet"

And more they said:"our airspace is Intact"

Well if an Iranian official said it, it must be true. Seriously, before you make outrageous claims, try to at least put your claims in a modern context. Are you honestly incapable of comparing an SA-2 to an F-16 and figuring out which one is more modern and which one will kill which?

 

[bolheed]

Bla Bla Bla...

Well the s-200 thing was not intended,and i knew that its the Nato name,but missed it in the first count.so forget it.

Aside from poor analysis there is one thing that you guys are masters in,which is unproffessional debate.You sound like junior kids and like children who are battling each other,or in this case trying to battle with me to win a prize and say wohooo we won over this guy.

MOST OF YOU seem very childish and just comment with what i consider very weak,and unacceptable debate form.So do and try to act like grown men and adults for the sake of this Important Website mates.

So you say that they are cold war era...But taking a look at when the F-16 or the other advanced aircraft in the United States airforce,i can clearly see that those weapons were made at the same time,so the age of the weapon cannot be viewed as a major deteriant factor to its value in a great extent,so these weapons and airdefences are of the same age considerebly as the the Jets flown today,except of course some of the other Jets like the F-22A raptor...

Well Feanor as i told you before,if you could tell me what source you would consider solid,i will provide the source,but until then every source that i will provide will be considered by you as unworthy and other things.So you tell me what source you want.

I know its 2008 but i also know that these weapons are not garbage as you say,they all can be upgraded if you heard of that,and the same happens to aircrafts were they update it with Kits,so these Airdefences have also been upgraded and thus no further are they obselute.

Well the 29 tor's are not capable of guarding Tehran but they are certainly more than capable of completly shutting down the strait of hrmoz area,so the former allegation made by some members is shot down as well,so no Turkey shoot out my friends for Iranian military forces in this strait.
So if i want to debate only this situation then you are clearly are not really aware of the Iranian defence measures my friends.

And you think only 29 tor's have been deliverd,so from 2006 they have not been able to buy new defence systems which are very well known of their capability,well either you guys have no sense of analatical capability or the Iranians are simply Dumbt,but i guess i will go with number one here mates.

So while you sit there and wait for what i m going to say,so you might TRY and mock those writings,which you cant do,because you are only mocking your selves with this kind of debate,i suggest that you go and research these matters rather than this boring waiting and more boring responses.
Research maties,research and never think that any country will simply tell us and the public what defences it has,or military capabilities,and especially not IRan,so do try and do that,and analyise,(There is no such thing as solid Information in Military).

Whether copied from chinese or from the freakin Marsians it doesnt matter.



(So do and tell me why this threat to attack Iran has been sinse 2003 and till now not The U.S nor the Israelys have dared and shot one damn Bullet against the Iranians(ten points for the one that finds out why).Isnt it obvious that they know what capabilities Iran holds,dont you guys listen to what U.S navy Admirals are saying,dont you ever hear what the Top Ranking officers in the U.S are saying,if not then try and Listen for a bit,and you'll get the points.):nutkick

They are building more Airdefence systmes because they figured out the play and now knew what hurts the enemy the most,so they know it and they will certainly do it.Its only a matter of time before everything is clear to you guys.

The Guns that the Iranians hold are far more powerfull than those rusty guns used in bagdad,so let that one out,and think twice about the effect of those on low altitude aircrafts.

FoxNews have repeatedly shown that they have aquired the S-300,along with other media resources but manage with what i have previosly written and it will be more than enough for the Military comunity.

"Jane’s Defence Weekly Exclusive: Iran to acquire advanced air defence system via Syria"

Iran is set to acquire at least 10 96K6 Pantsyr-S1E self-propelled short-range gun and missile air defence systems, resulting from a major deal struck between Syria and Russia earlier this year.



Faced with the possibility of an air strike against its nuclear infrastructure assets, Iran has accelerated its procurement of various advanced air defence systems in the past few years.

This procurement has been most notably from Russia and has included various types of advanced air defence systems, including the S-300PMU-1/2 systems; 29 Tor M1 systems and the S-125M1 Pechora-2A (SA-3 ‘ Goa’) low-to-medium altitude air defence system and deployed these systems at its most sensitive infrastructure assets. (ENDS)

Gaze upon this source maties and figure some more facts.

"If our bullying enemy wants to do something insane, it will surely be taken by surprise," army chief Major General Ataollah Salehi

They are afraid,and they know the drill.
care for more information on these defences or what?

Do try and respond with a rather more intelligent manner.

 

[bolheed]

I have posted my email so we might have some direct chatting,which i guess will solve this missunderstanding,so do try and contact me their via msn or direct chatting.
[email protected]

 

[kato]

(So do and tell me why this threat to attack Iran has been sinse 2003 and till now not The U.S nor the Israelys have dared and shot one damn Bullet against the Iranians

Gee, you don't think that might have to do with the fact that since 2002, 70% of the US Military is effectively engaged otherwise? (and this hasn't changed much since then)

FoxNews

'nuff said.