Royal Saudi Navy capability and threats

[Feanor]

My knowledge of the Iranian Navy is limited, however I seriously doubt that they have anything that can even seriously challenge two CVBG's. A super power, the USSR, kept hundreds of AVMF bombers and strike aircraft on hand to deal with the US carriers. You're telling me Iran can do the same?

Su-30
It was reported by Jerusalem Post that Iran has signed an arms deal with the Russian Rosoboronexport arms group to buy 250 Su-30 MKM warplanes and 20 Il-78 MKI aerial tankers.it is reported that Israeli defense officials were investigating the potential Iran-Russia deal, in which Iran would pay $1 billion a dozen squadrons’ worth of the jets.[1]It is rumored that the first aircraft would have been delivered before the end of 2007. This sale would give Iran the largest and probably the most powerful air force in the Middle East. Iran and Russia have both denied this and have rejected these claims as propaganda.[2][3][4]

This is utter crap. Iran can't afford 250 Super Flankers. Why they would buy MKM instead of an MKIr designed specifically for Iran is also beyond me. Every previous MK buyer got a customized variant. Finally 250 Flankers means 1) replacing every Iranian fighter plane with a Flanker 2) doubling the size of IrAF. Also unbelievable. Also tankers. Why Iran would need 20 tankers, when they have no modern AEW to support their AF is also beyond me. Finally 1 billion would not cut the cost anywhere near what it really is. You need maintenance parts and facilities. You need training by Russian personell. You need weapons. At around 40 million per plane, 250 planes comes to 10 billion. Plus all the above mentioned additional costs. Finally we might mention that the Jerusalem post has the reputation of an Israeli government outlet that is often times used to test public reaction. Why you would post this garbage here is beyond me.

J-10
The Russian news agency Novosti reported that Business & Financial Markets said Iran has signed a deal with China to buy two squadrons/24 of J-10 fighter planes with Russian-made AL-31FN engines. The total cost of the planes is estimated at $1 billion, and deliveries are expected between 2008 and 2010. China denied that it had agreed to sell its homegrown fighter jets to Iran, saying no talks had taken place. Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told reporters: "It's not true, it is an irresponsible report, China has not had talks with Iran on J-10 jets."[5][6][7]

Denied by Chinese. No deliveries have taken place. Morever the PLAAF has yet to get enough J-10's, and you're suggesting export has already begun?

MiG-29SMT
Some sources also report that next to Su-30s (and S300 SAMs) Iran also wants to purchase newer variants of the MiG-29 like the MiG-29SMT.[citation needed]

[Citation needed]. Is this a wikipedia CnP? Seriously. I'm a very calm and patient person, but this is ridiculous. Do real research not this crap. Not to mention that Iran can "want to purchase" anything, up to and including Topol-M road-mobile ICBM's. It doesn't mean anything. That and the fact that the SMT is cheap crap compared to Super Flankers, or Super Fulcrums currently on the market.

Super 7 or Chao Qi fighter plane
According to Global Security, in July 2003 Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAIC) unveiled the new ‘Super-7’ or Chao Qi fighter plane to the public. The plane is being produced to be sold abroad to developing nations. China already has received orders from Iran.[2]

I did a quick search, and nothing confirms this. Not even wiki's list of operators of the Jf-17.

MiG 31
again according to Global Security there are MiG 31 (Russia's most modern fighter aircraft worth of 41 million Dollars )among other fighters in Iranian purchase NOTE: this is not confirmed. [3]

Ridiculous. The MiG-31 has had no confirmed export orders. They are certainly not Russia's most modern aircraft. The only country outside Russia to operate them currently is Kazakhstan which got ~40 left over from the Soviet days. Finally why Iran would attempt to purchase high-altitude interceptors, with ancient avionics is also beyond me. Your analysis is toilet paper, "mate". And seriously stop with the spammed smilies. It's really annoying.

 

[swerve]

Yea and steven each boat has the ability to fire 10 Missiles each,so that makes it 5000 missile if they want,without counting Missile Batteries that are installed on the shores...

500 boats with 5000 missiles? Can you explain, please?

1. Please describe these boats. How large, what speed, what sensors, what range?

2. Please describe these missiles. What type, how large, what range, what guidance system?

 

[Feanor]

The Skhval is of little use for the Iranians - it is best as a snap shot nuke delivery vehicle. The Russians must have been wearing a wide grin all the way to the bank.

I had a wide grin when I read that they were buying 29, TWENTY-NINE Tor M1's.

 

[bolheed]

Full Response!

First of all a person starts his response saying "My knowledge of the Iranian Navy is limited" and then continues talking about his doubts about its powers.How can you say that when you dont kow about their defences?

Second Mr.Feanor try to be more polite if you may,at least for the sake of our calm forum discussion,using words such as:This is utter crap,Why you would post this garbage here is beyond me,Ridiculous,and even mimicing the Mate word,among other verbal uses is very childish of you and its not accepted at all,these are insults which show a very weak personality my Friend.And the smilies were just to add some sense of humor to the discussion and spamming,its better the discussion keeps its limits and it doesnt hurt to smile a little bit,sheeeeeesh!

Third when i posted tehm i qouted them from wiki and i showed the source,Israel sold Iran weapons and the U.S sold them weapons and both denied,and you say the chinese denied and the russian denied,ofcourse they will,they have to take world media in consideration.I mean what ountry sells these kinds of weapons and say sure we sold Sophisticated jets to iran.Thats why they deny it and so.

Forth the Russian-Iranian relationship has been going through the roof especially after Putin's visit to iran,and the so called strategic order from Iran's Highest Leader to tighten relations with Russia.And Russia is planning a more and very wide realtions with Iran,i mean common they are dividing markets between each other,meaning Gas and petrol markets and saying they dont want to compete and they rather work together than competing.And thus Selling Iran DEFENCE weapons is very logical from the Russain side,tehy are making money and helping out Iran because Russia is benefiting from them.The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend.

Fifth if you may research Iranian jets and you'll see for your self what mighty Jets they have,maybe not sophisticated as the U.S but the U.S has been developing jets for more than 60 years and the Iranians for 15 so you do the math accordingly.

And about the parade its a physcological war item."Iranian military parades can conjure up surprises. The same can be said of Revolution Day festivities.
Displaying captured military equipment is nothing new. The British made heavy use of such during the Second World War. Similar to the sentiments expressed in the post, such were also a cause of consternation to the Germans".quoted.

Swerve,these boats were an example as i said before all Iranian Ships, boats ... are equiped with the chines c-802 and sunburns along with home-made anti-ship missiles which are very sophisticated.I dont want to repeat all what i have said so if you may refer to the earlier discussions.

I think that covers up everything her and do use proffessional adressing my friend Feanor.
Have a nice day.

 

[bolheed]

[QUOTE=bolheed;147283
to the discussion and spamming

I meant NOT SPAMMING

 

[Grand Danois]

I had a wide grin when I read that they were buying 29, TWENTY-NINE Tor M1's.

Just in case I was unclear. The Shkval is close to useless in the hands of the Iranians. The Russians sold them something they could show off on TV, but not much more than that.

As has already been pointed out, closure of the Hormuz with mines, subsonic CMs and artillery is the threat that international shipping and navies face. The odd pot shot with a BM... well the Gulf States have really been stocking up on Patriots recently.

How the KSA navy fits in, I don't know precisely. However the MCM version of LCS with some selfdefence capability against AShM sounds like a nice fit.

 

[swerve]

Swerve,these boats were an example as i said before all Iranian Ships, boats ... are equiped with the chines c-802 and sunburns along with home-made anti-ship missiles which are very sophisticated.I dont want to repeat all what i have said so if you may refer to the earlier discussions.

I'm not asking for repetition, but explanation. Your claims are unclear. Are you saying that Iran has 5000 C-802, Sunburn, & other missiles of comparable perfiormance? And that it has 500 vessels each armed with 10 such missiles? If not, what? What are these "home-made anti-ship missiles"? What performance, what size, what numbers? Same for the vessels.

BTW, why do you think 10 billion USD is such a big number? Saudi Arabia is spending well over twice that, Spain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Brazil, Turkey all spend more.

 

[bolheed]

Here it goes!

I'm not asking for repetition, but explanation. Your claims are unclear. Are you saying that Iran has 5000 C-802, Sunburn, & other missiles of comparable perfiormance? And that it has 500 vessels each armed with 10 such missiles? If not, what? What are these "home-made anti-ship missiles"? What performance, what size, what numbers? Same for the vessels.

Okay mate dont sweat it,here's the deal...
The iranians have been building up their military since 1979 and continued till now,their sole target is the Defence industry,so they have been developing Weapons and mostly Missiles,because as they say it has a very powerfull impact when in great numbers.

The Iranian Military is covered up in secrets and one can only refer to what they occasionly say,analyse it,along with analysing what their capabilites are refering to Military excersises and other strategic analysis.

currently their defence budget is around 10 billion dollars,they manufacture all of their weapons and have great capabilities in the mass production of Missiles.

Cutting to the chase here are SOME of those anti-ship missile,Kowsar, Kosar1,
Kosar3 ,C-801 ,C-802,Noor, P-800 Oniks(onyx),RAAD,Sunburn.

The Sunburn can deliver a 200-kiloton nuclear payload, or a 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 170 km. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes "violent end maneuvers" to elude enemy defenses.
It costs 450,000 $ each so its estimated that iran bought around 200 missiles of this type,because of its fantastic results when tested.

P-800 Oniks(onyx):Warhead 250 kg,Flight altitude 5-15 meters above sea level or higher,Speed Mach 2.5,Guidance system active-passive, radar seeker head,Launch platform naval ships, fixed-wing aircraft.


C-802:Operational range 200 km,payload 165 kg,Flight altitude 3 m,Speed Supersonic,Guidance system Inertial and terminal active radar,Launch
platform ground-based vehicles, naval ships, fixed-wing aircraft.
Now this missile is installed at all Iranian vessels and its estimated number in service in Iranian navy is about "150".
And it has many variants that are also Held by Iran.

"Raad":Warhead: 513 kg shape charged high-explosive,Max Speed: 1.1Mach,Flight Altitude: 30-50 m,Guidance Mode: Inertial and monopulse active radar.

"Noor":range 200km,payload 160 kg.Maximum Speed: Mach 0.9.

"C-801":range 95 km, with a 513 kilogram payload.

(Kowsar):Warhead 29 kg time-delayed semi-armour-piercing high-explosive, Engine Solid rocket engine,range 15-20 km,Flight altitude 15-20 m (flight),Speed Mach 0.8,Guidance system TV-homing, Infra-red, millimetre radar,Launch platform ground-based vehicles.
The Kowsar missiles are classed as being able to sink a FAC with one hit.

Iran has sophisticated EM-53 bottom-tethered mines.The EM-53 presents a serious threat to major U.S. surface vessels, since its rocket-propelled charge is capable of hitting the hull of its target at speeds in excess of 70 miles per hour. Some analysts believe it can knock out a U.S. aircraft carrier.

Along the vessels there are:Corvetts and cat ships and others which hold those missiles,and as you see some are launched from the shore also.

I hope the info was enough,as you know the number of home-made missiles was never uncovered but its estimated by proffessional sources to be currently around 6500 missiles.(Remember mostly Home-made versions which are extremly cheap because the gov is the manufacturer and by the Iranian officers whom are paid monthly saleries).

Another hint of what might happen(there are a lot other Hints)
At a lecture at Tehran University on May 23, 2004, Iranian Revolutionary Guards official Dr. Hassan Abassi said: " In Southern Iran, we have a 2000-kilometer coast and 36 islands. The average depth of the Persian Gulf is 45-50 meters. The deepest spot there is 94 meters deep, between the islands of Abu Musa and Tonb. This is a very suitable spot for maritime guerrilla warfare. Our special forces are definitely ready for action there.

" Through the Straits of Hormuz, 67% of the world's total energy passes… Take a tanker to the Straits of Hormuz and sink it there… When it lies on the surface, half of it will protrude. It will take five months for it to be salvaged. A rise in oil prices, as you have seen, causes the West fever…"

Catch you later mate.

 

[swerve]

...
Another hint of what might happen(there are a lot other Hints)
At a lecture at Tehran University on May 23, 2004, Iranian Revolutionary Guards official Dr. Hassan Abassi said: " In Southern Iran, we have a 2000-kilometer coast and 36 islands. The average depth of the Persian Gulf is 45-50 meters. The deepest spot there is 94 meters deep, between the islands of Abu Musa and Tonb. This is a very suitable spot for maritime guerrilla warfare. Our special forces are definitely ready for action there.

" Through the Straits of Hormuz, 67% of the world's total energy passes… Take a tanker to the Straits of Hormuz and sink it there… When it lies on the surface, half of it will protrude. It will take five months for it to be salvaged. A rise in oil prices, as you have seen, causes the West fever…"

Catch you later mate.

You take seriously someone who says (presumably with a straight face) that 67% of the worlds energy passes through the Straits of Hormuz?

ca 40% of internationally traded oil, or 25% of total world oil production, passes through the strait. Oil accounts for just over a third of the worlds energy. Work it out for yourself. 25% of 35% . . . . . nfloorl:


I'll take the rest of his (& your) claims as being similarly accurate.

BTW, the Bosporus had a sunken tanker for a few years, protruding above the surface, the M/T Independenţa, 164000 tons. I saw the wreck in 1981, 19 months after the sinking. Got pictures, taken from a ferry - and here is one (not mine) on the net. Traffic was flowing. The Bosporus is a fraction of the width of the Straits of Hormuz, its widest point being a tenth of the narrowest point of Hormuz. Independenţa was in the southern entrance, where the strait is a few km wide, & busy with ferries & other local traffic. Taking that as an example, how many sunken ships would it take to block the Straits of Hormuz? 100? 200?

Independenţa caused a short-term cessation of through navigation, due to the fire hazard (her cargo caught fire). But that wouldn't apply in the much wider Hormuz waterway.

You've still not said which Iranian vessels can fire 10 anti-ship missiles, or provided any evidence to support your claims of huge Iranian stocks of anti-ship missiles. I see you've toned down your claims of imports to more credible numbers (e.g. 150 C-802), but 6500 Iranian-made anti-ship missiles? That's more than the USN bought Harpoons, back when it planned for fighting the USSR. Very expensive, even if there were launching platforms for them all. Frankly, I don't believe it.

 

[Feanor]

I think that covers up everything her and do use proffessional adressing my friend Feanor.
Have a nice day.

So are you going to respond to the substance of my post or just give me more generalizations? None of the weapons you quoted were actually confirmed to be in Iranian arsenals. Most of the deals you suggested are ridiculous by their very nature. 250 Su-30's, etc. Finally you've provided no solid evidence for any of your claims. From this we're left to assume that you're an Iranian fanboy that has little real info to contribute but loves CnP-ing long bits of texts from various websites and then reposting it because it looks nice and long. When you have real evidence or Iranian capability we can continue this debate. Until then I encourage you to do some serious reading and not waste people's time with fantasies of Iranian power.

 

[bolheed]

I responded to your post,but it seems you guys miss what i m writing.
Any more use of words that are unproffessional and which you seem to have repeated will cause the termination of this discussion.We are supposed to have some maneers when talking and adressing people and not going(ridiculous,and stuff like that).Control your self!
I wrote that these where just proposals and ideas claimed by the press.
When does any country in the world tell or inform the public of its military powers??
You say with what do you support you claims and i ask you guys,you think that Jane's defence has some solid info or even what ever source you consider respectable has information that is considered to be eligable for your mind accepting facts,but where do you think those people get their info???
Its through Analysis and what manufacturers of Arms say and post.
They are not magicians to know whats hidden or fortune tellers,since not a single country in the whole world says what numbers of kinds of weapons it has,NO country at all.They all present numbers which are not accurate,Military power is better kept Hidden and not always exposed to others.
Why do you think some countries produce some weapons and only reveal them years later?The U.S develops stealth aircrafts and the public only knows that they exist 10-15 years later and some weapons never get uncovered.
If it werent for analysis no one would have wrote that Russia and the U.S could have stealth bombers like the B2 which was later confirmed or some other weapons which some said they exist and it was true as they really existed it was just that no country revealed there existence,till later times.
Till now Israel didnt confirm whether they have nuclear weapons or not,so if i say they have 150 -200 nukes you can easliy say where is the source.Well they have nuclear reactors and they built it fot the purpose of complete power in the middle east where they leaked through diplomates and writers that they have weapons and thus the arabs didnt even dare to attack israel after all other matters to exclude their powers where done.

You say that i m a fan boy of iran and stuff like that and go mocking,well i can tell you,you only mocked youre self with that kind of talking,because neither one of us truely knows whats behind the curtains,where many times wars broke loose for the sole target of winning some dollars and so some weapon contractor can get a Billions of dollars out of the deal.(and you know its true)...Well no my friend Feonor i m not.I m completely capable of strategic analysis and My readings pass average reader time where i spend hours doing research and i see what mislead info is out there,not a single Military Information can be confirmed,but one may use logic and reason and think,is that number plausable ,is it true,could it be right or not.


When that Iranain guy said that,he surely didnt mean one tanker at all,but you and i both know what they can do on their turf,its their enviromnent and they are the best to know what factors of beneficial combat managment could it be put into.

Designation to Iranian boats arent that important but do you think that they have such vessels capable of that firepower or not?
If not then you can easily type Iranain boats on google and go through websites and see for your self that they have that power,i m not going to do that because then your question will be about if they will have enough petrol to run the boats.

The Iranians are capable and the U.S knows that,just revise what Generals and admirals of the U.S say about the conflict between the U.S and Iran could do to their interests and you will see that those Iranians are prepared and very well equiped and surely they are ready to fight whom they acknowledge day in day out as their enemy(the U.S).

So 6500 missile is a lot you say,well they threated israel that in the first minute of war they will fire up to 11,000 missile at them(2000 km away),meaning that they will use shahab 3 missile.And they say they will continue to fire more during the war,excluding what missiles will get fired at U.S interests in the gulf.So 6500 anti-ship missiles is a very acceptable number.

The Iranians use reversed engineering,they buy a missile and then produce it on their own.That use is for cost reduction among other things so they may produce it in mass numbers because believe it or not they are preparing and surely they dont wnat to loose a war at all.

They are very well trained,look at Hizbollah which they are backing up,and thats Iranian training which made those boys powerfull enough to defeat Israel as the Israelys acknowledged their defeat.They saty hezbollah has more than 30,000 Missile,well they are all from iran,and still 6500 are a lot?

It was with their missile which saaer got struck,One single missile did that,A single Home made iranian missile did that well think of a bunch of those fired at a time,you will say the defences where of well how about you fire 100 missile towars one ship,they will cost you 2-3 million dollars while the destroyer costs a lot more than that and you will be surely succesfull with more kills and losses for the enemy.

I can tell you if the U.S could have overrunned Iran or defeated it,it would have attacked long ago.
They said we will attack Northkorea,we will not allow them to aquire nuke weapons,and they couldnt do anything,because they know that when they attack,the North koreans will use their 15,000 pieces of artillary and bomb the Hell out of South korea.
It Levarage,Military balance or the balance of terror between forces,,and look what happend,the north koreans tested a nuclear weapon,they were up to the challenge because they know what levarage they had.
And thats the case with Iran,they knew that they can cause emense damage through the extensive use of missiles and thats what they did,they started mass producing missiles were numbers as stated by Iranians reached More than 15,000 missiles a year among many Missile production types.

So still you think they dont have that capability,they have the money the man power,the will,the enemy and Russia which gives them access to modern weapon technology,so why not??????

 

[bolheed]

Learn how to analyise,because no information can be trusted.

“If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.” — Bertrand Russell, Roads to Freedom

 

[swerve]

...So 6500 missile is a lot you say,well they threated israel that in the first minute of war they will fire up to 11,000 missile at them(2000 km away),meaning that they will use shahab 3 missile.And they say they will continue to fire more during the war,excluding what missiles will get fired at U.S interests in the gulf.So 6500 anti-ship missiles is a very acceptable number.

The Iranians use reversed engineering,they buy a missile and then produce it on their own.That use is for cost reduction among other things so they may produce it in mass numbers because believe it or not they are preparing and surely they dont wnat to loose a war at all.

They are very well trained,look at Hizbollah which they are backing up,and thats Iranian training which made those boys powerfull enough to defeat Israel as the Israelys acknowledged their defeat.They saty hezbollah has more than 30,000 Missile,well they are all from iran,and still 6500 are a lot?

Do you not know the difference between a basic artillery rocket (probably the simplest, cheapest munition to produce) and a guided anti-ship missile?

 

[SaudiArabian]

Iran Navy seized 4 Saudi fishing boats and arrested all its crews (17 sailors all of them Indians) 55 kilometers away from Bushehr Nuclear Reactor today 3rd of July 2008

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/07/03/52517.html

 

[kato]

55 km (30 nm) would put them outside Iranian territorial waters.

Although that's probably well inside Iranian EEZ, and hence they could be arrested on some technical charges related to fishing there.

 

[bolheed]

Do you not know the difference between a basic artillery rocket (probably the simplest, cheapest munition to produce) and a guided anti-ship missile?

Man do you ever read what i m writing???
Medium Range Ballistic Missile is a basic artillery?yea thats right so a missile with a range of 2000 km,and a payload of about 1 ton of explosives,a hit accuracy of 2 meters,costs less than a Guided anti-ship missile.

Man i have a data base of more than 350 weapons and i have read enough so do try and stop those writings or else just ask questions and i'll be more than happy to answer you,but this debate is going really bored with these types of questions were i give tons of info and then you find a single word and ask about it,and i tell you i m responsible for every word and info i post,but stop targeting questions that you know are of no USE.

Have a nice day mate,and i'll catch you later.

 

[AegisFC]

Man do you ever read what i m writing???
Medium Range Ballistic Missile is a basic artillery?yea thats right so a missile with a range of 2000 km,and a payload of about 1 ton of explosives,a hit accuracy of 2 meters,costs less than a Guided anti-ship missile.

Ballistic missiles are just about useless against a ship.
Their is a nice thread on the subject in this forum, go search for it.

 

[bolheed]

Ballistic missiles are just about useless against a ship.
Their is a nice thread on the subject in this forum, go search for it.

Could you start reaing the posts for peace's sake!!!!!!!!!!!
Who said that a ballistic missile is to be launched at a ship??
Read the previous desicussion,no one said that it would be better than an anti-ship missile.

 

[swerve]

Man do you ever read what i m writing???
Medium Range Ballistic Missile is a basic artillery?yea thats right so a missile with a range of 2000 km,and a payload of about 1 ton of explosives,a hit accuracy of 2 meters,costs less than a Guided anti-ship missile....

To my shame, I have wasted time reading what you've said.

You referred to the large numbers of artillery rockets supplied to Hezbollah as evidence for Irans ability to build large numbers of anti-ship missiles. Your comparison, not mine.

You've followed up your inability to remember, or deliberate ignoring of, what you have written, with a couple of fundamental errors in one statement. Firstly, you're confusing accuracy against a fixed, known, point with ability to hit a moving object. Secondly, 2 metres accuracy over 2000 km for Iranian ballistic missiles? Dream on.

 

[swerve]

Could you start reaing the posts for peace's sake!!!!!!!!!!!
Who said that a ballistic missile is to be launched at a ship??
Read the previous desicussion,no one said that it would be better than an anti-ship missile.

You implied it, strongly. When challenged on the ability of Iran to build large numbers of guided anti-ship missiles, you responded with talk of 2 metre accuracy ballistic missiles, which you then stated are cheaper than anti-ship missiles.

I think you need to review what you have written before posting it. You seem unaware of how it can be read. The conjunction of two statements, even if not explicitly linked, in a single response, is generally taken to imply connection.

There is another interpretation of your posting style, i.e. that you are aware of what you are doing, & do it deliberately, in order to elicit responses which you can then ridicule. I should warn you that if that if it is decided that is what you are doing, then you're risking suspension from this forum.