Before the Connie retired I was on her while underway and there was a difference between what my GPS said and the USN fact file.
-DA
What should the USAF buy?
- Thread starter F-15 Eagle
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-DA
So, you don't have to. Not many people understand this. BTW, I wasn't referring to R_Max. The F-35 is not designed to sustain the altitudes and speeds that the F-22 will. Again, there are engineering reasons for this that cannot be willed away.
-DA
it's not a matter of 'understanding', it's a matter of public USAF statements (according to you)
where 'engineering reasons' = 'more thrusties' (or 'greater thrust to weight ratio' if you prefer)
yes i agree the F-22 has greater performance (speed, altitude)
but the F-35 has greater efficiency (which translates to greater range in this case)
we don't seem to be really disagreeing on this point as far as i can tell, you just have a strange way of saying it
Regarding the poll I think getting the F-35 online is the priority.
irtusk and Darthamerica you are both right.
The F-35 has a similar range to the F-22. Both aircraft flying at high subsonic speeds will reach a very similar distance.
If you start flying supersonic the F-35's range drops much quicker than the F-22's as the low bypass turbofans of the F-22 gives it high exhaust velocity and thrust that the F-35 requires afterburners to match..
If you start flying low subsonic speeds trying to loiter over the battlefield providing close air support the F-35 will stay up for longer. Its higher bypass turbofan gives it lower specific fuel consumption and it requires less thrust, as at any give thrust level the F-35 will be moving more air.
Speed: F-22 wins
Range: F-35 and F-22 are equal
Endurance: F-35 wins
The problem is most unmanned aircraft lack the eyes and ears for complete situational awareness. So the pilot on the ground is flying the thing looking down a straw. Until the unmanned aircraft get 360degree optical/IR sensors, AESA and enough processing power the situation wont improve.
Its a good thing that the F-35 is likely to have an unmanned version. We should be putting our eggs in its basket so it suceeds due to the future possibilities of the F-35.
irtusk and Darthamerica you are both right.
The F-35 has a similar range to the F-22. Both aircraft flying at high subsonic speeds will reach a very similar distance.
If you start flying supersonic the F-35's range drops much quicker than the F-22's as the low bypass turbofans of the F-22 gives it high exhaust velocity and thrust that the F-35 requires afterburners to match..
If you start flying low subsonic speeds trying to loiter over the battlefield providing close air support the F-35 will stay up for longer. Its higher bypass turbofan gives it lower specific fuel consumption and it requires less thrust, as at any give thrust level the F-35 will be moving more air.
Speed: F-22 wins
Range: F-35 and F-22 are equal
Endurance: F-35 wins
I agree.
The problem is most unmanned aircraft lack the eyes and ears for complete situational awareness. So the pilot on the ground is flying the thing looking down a straw. Until the unmanned aircraft get 360degree optical/IR sensors, AESA and enough processing power the situation wont improve.
Its a good thing that the F-35 is likely to have an unmanned version. We should be putting our eggs in its basket so it suceeds due to the future possibilities of the F-35.
I firmly believe the USAF should by 381 F-22s. The F-22 is just a better aircraft than the F-35 in the roles of SEAD and Air Superiority. The F-35 will be given to many allies and could possibly be the subject of leaked tech. The F-22 won't have that problem and because of that, I'm SURE it is filled with more advanced systems than the F-35.
I couldn't agree more. Well said. There is no aircraft better suited to penetrate and advanced IADS or shoot down enemy planes than the F-22.
1. since when did the F-22 operate off carriers?
if you can't get to the fight, you aren't even in the game . . .
2. even land-based, it's not as clear cut as you might believe
the F-22 is faster and possibly slightly stealthier, but:
a) the F-35 can carry more and bigger bombs
b) the avionics and situational awareness of the F-35 is superior
this last point is far more critical than most people realize
maybe in the mechanical systems, but i wouldn't be so sure about the avionics
the F-35 avionics are an improvement/evolution of what's in the F-22 and according to all indications, it is superior in this regards
i can't prove it, but i really believe the F-35 is going to have a decent range advantage over the F-22
the fuel loads are very similar, and it's even possible that the F-35C (20k lbs) carries MORE than the Raptor (18 to ~20k lbs depending on source)
but the F-35 is smaller, lighter, has only 1 engine instead of 2, and a more efficient engine at that
all this adds up to better range
there's a reason the F-35 looks a bit chubby compared to the sleek F-22
No one here will be able to prove that the F-35 will have a decent range advantage. However, if you compare percentage of fuel weight over clean all up weight, it gives a good indication on their range capabilities.
F-35A - about 45% of total weight is fuel.
F-22A - about 37% of total weight is fuel.
All else being equal, the F-35A should have a decent range advantage over the F-22A. The technologies in their engines should be about the same generation. These figures will vary for the B and C versions of the Lightning.
There is absolutely no doubt that the F-22A will be superior in air to air, being the bread and butter of the USAF. Among other things, supercruise ability will be better than the F-35. AAM weapons load is double. Even the radar will likely be better optimised for air to air. Yet, the F-35 cannot be too far off since the USN needs to have a credible air to air capability.
As for the F-35 being able to carry 14 AAMs, look at this link. External AAM carriage in future air combat is highly unlikely against modern air to air threats. Now if the air to air threats don't exist, why would they need 14 AAMs? It is thus unlikely that the F-35 will ever be able to carry 14 AAMs unless certain international partners are willing to fund this development.
Given the priorities, I would opt for more F-35s. The Lightnings will be able to do the job most of the time.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Even without the double ejector in the works for the internal A2G weapons station (i.e. at IOC) the F-35 (all variants) will be able to carry 14 AAM's without modification. The two inboard, external hard-points can accommodate duel AAM carriage using contemporary double racks, so thats 8. 2x AAM on the outboard, external hard-point's & 4x internally. Thats 14 AAM's at IOC without future development. If we get 6x internal AAM carriage capability, then you've got 16.
Whether or nor you would ever actually need 14x AAM's is another question though.
I'd suggest that if "blue force" ever considered that it's aircraft needed to be that loaded up to deal with saturated and contested air space that other options would be in play well before blues aircraft were committed....
Ozzy, confirm that will include full certification? I was under the impression that the baseline certification does not include the 14 missile configuration. Physically, you may be able to fit the launchers and the missiles and insure store separation based on analysis, but to certify all the weapon stations require a full gamut of tests, on the ground and in the air. I don't remember a 14 missile config and don't remember any international partners saying that they wanted such a config as well. The baseline config priorities were for the air to mud stuff, I believe.
cheers
Guppy
seanjames101
New Member
USAF should buy a few eurofighter tycoons. It is simply the best fighter/bomber in europe and even possably the world
I never said the F-22 was based of an aircraft carrier. I just said that as far as locating and destroying enemy SAM sights, it would be the best aircraft for the job.
And what exactly makes you think the situational awarness of the F-35 will be better? The F-22 has many planned upgrades to keep it more capable than the F-35.
and i was just saying that sometimes those sam sites are only accessible from an aircraft carrier
1. more sensors are built-in to the F-35 that simply cannot be added to the F-22 (such as its DAS system that provides, among other features, 'look-through' capability so a pilot can look through the plane)
2. it's not clear that a helmet mounted sight will ever be integrated with the F-22
3. the F-22 is going to be the last aircraft to get the AIM-9X (probably 2014-2016 before it's integrated)
4. the F-35 will always get funding priority for updates since it will be the front-line aircraft doing all the dirty work and there will be so many of them. Not to mention our allies will make sure lots of upgrades get funded
the F-22 will always be the red-headed step-child when it comes to funding upgrades
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
As [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Ozzy Blizzard[/FONT] has already pointed out the F-35 already has the capability to carry 14 AAMs. The U.S. F-35s will have this capability and so will international partners. The 14 AAMs is already a baseline configuration. If the U.S. were to go the war(although very unlikely) with Russia or China than U.S. F-35s might carry 14 AAMs when the Russians and Chinese each have some 2000+ combat aircraft. It is unlikely the F-35s will need to carry that much in a normal war but they do have the capability to carry 14 AAMs if they really need to.
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #37
How can you say you don't recall the F-35 having 14 AAMs when the link that you gave which is this one: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8351.html already proves the F-35 will carry 14 AAMs. The F-35 will be an outstanding air to air fighter which is why the Pentagon and the GOA support the F-35 over more F-22s.
Both American and international F-35s will having this capability if they really need to load up the F-35 though 4, 6, or 8 AAMs will be the most common air to air load out in combat but they will still have the option to carry 14 AAMs if it is needed.
Unfortunately, the US Congress has been providing development funding for stealth F-22s and F-35s. Therefore they wish to buy these. Plus, politically, it would be suicide to buy European fighters. Boeing is still trying to kill the Airbus tanker.
In fact, the Eurofighter doesn't provide for US manufactured jet engines from either GE or Pratt. Pratt is New England, GE is Ohio. Its hard to win the US presidency without carrying one or the other.
F-35 weapons capability. Link:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0163.shtml
The aircraft can carry 14 AAMs. Why do some think it can't?
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0163.shtml
The aircraft can carry 14 AAMs. Why do some think it can't?
F-15 Eagle
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #40
I don't know why they think that. For some reason a lot of people think the F-35 wont be a good air to air fighter like the F-15 and F-16 are.
They think it will manly be a strike aircraft and not a multi-role fighter like the F-16 and F/A-18. They always say its slow and not maneuverable and has a small payload but I know thats not true because the F-35 has F-18 speed and F-16 maneuverability and can carry more AAMs and bombs than any other fighter, and to think the F-35 will be anything less than a stellar air to air fighter is ridiculous.
I've been asking myself why people think this, but your guess is as good as mine.
Here is 3 more articles about the F-35s capability, link: http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/documents/AFA Conf - JSF Program Brief - 26 Sept 06.pdf
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f35/
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f35/f-35-capabilities.html
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